I'll preface this by saying we know we're still in the infancy of the game and we don't know what's coming with the Battle Pass, but as it stands currently the economy is a glaring concern to me and many others I'd assume. Many seemed concerned with the multi-currency economy and I agree. But I also think with some balance changes and tweaks it could work. I get you want to entice people into purchasing Apex Coins (AC), but when the system seems so clearly rigged to force you into that it turns a lot of people off... Apex Coins (AC) - We get it, it's a free game and you need to make money some how, but EA's reputation precedes them. It's no secret many players have less than been impressed with EA's attempts to implement micro-transactions previously and the feeling of greed trumping player satisfaction. At first glance this game seemed ok, but looking further the price point on items available with AC seem far too expensive. The special items can create the desire for players to buy AC to unlock, but it can be a double edged sword. With a high price point it actually has a negative effect (for me at least). I actually feel it's not worth it to spend that much for one single item and therefore am turned off completely from spending additional money. I did buy the Founders Pack to show support of what I feel is a great game with potential, but additional purchase are not likely as it stands now. Instead of capturing just those that will always spend money regardless of price, I feel if the prices of legendary items were reduced significantly (maybe reduced to 60% of current) you would actually see a much larger number of purchases. Additionally, with the higher prices you may see very limited purchase for just that one specific skin the players feels they "must" have. But if costs were lowered they would likely be more inclined to pick up additional skins to have that variety. This also comes into play for LT with the ability to buy exclusives...Legend Tokens (LT) - As it stands now Legend Tokens are the only constant reward when leveling up but they will soon start collecting with little to no use for quite some time it seems. So far there only appears to be 2 uses of for LT; unlocking new Legends and buying exclusive weapon skins. Legends - By level 43 (assuming you weren't able to purchase exclusives) you will have enough LT to purchase both of the currently available locked Legends and after that they sit collecting dust. We know new Legends are expected but with no further details we don't know what avenues will be available for acquiring them.@DaWolv_vloWaD idea of locking additional legends from the start while slashing the LT cost to unlock is a decent idea. This would give players that sense of something worth grinding for instead of continuing to grind these rewards with little to no use for them. Also, it can be fun to have so many choices right out of the gate but at the same time can be overwhelming. Limiting initial options reduces that overwhelming feeling of "who do I pick" while also creating that sense of "can't wait to see what the next legend is like".Exclusives - I like the idea but this currently fails IMO because it has a prerequisite of owning a corresponding Legendary skin. For me this is a problem on multiple fronts which identify additional concerns (more detail below). The lottery system is very limited in earned chances, this of course refers to Apex Packs. The lack of ability to earn crafting metals at a reasonable rate and unlock the desired/required legendary skin. As mentioned above legendary items seem too expensive to reasonably justify spending AC to unlock. So as a result LT will continue to collect until the stock lines up with currently owned Legendary skin and a desirable exclusive, or if Legendary skins are made more accessible.Apex Packs (AP) - From what I've seen the number of AP that can be earned is capped at 45 right now. As stated before we know you want/need people to buy AC to justify this being a free game, but at the same time players don't appreciate feeling handcuffed to an unrewarding grind or being forced to spend money. It's likely we'll see additional chances to earn AP with the Battle Pass but to what extent is unknown, and currently it kinda feels like a slap in the face to not get one at every level. Mainly because the only constant reward at level up is LT, and the issues there outlined above. Personally I'm fine with the chances of cosmetics from the AP, but where the concern lies is this being the only avenue for earning Crafting Metals (CM). This for me is one of the biggest concerns...Pulling from other suggestions; perhaps change it to give an AP at every level. Possibly add a Daily reward system that provides additional chances for AP. Maybe at milestone levels (every 10 or 25) provide a bulk reward of AP.Crafting Metals (CM) - I really appreciate this option but it is severely limited in the current economy. As it stands the only way to get CM is from AP, which are limited in earned availability and provide no guarantee to receive CM. So even if you decide to buy AC and use them for AP, there's still no guarantee you'll get the much needed CM. This currency provides the most freedom to unlock all the various cosmetic options, from skins down to trackers. With Banners being the primary showcase for all the cosmetic options and CM being the primary avenue to customize these as desired we need a better stream of incoming CM. There are so many options between skins, frames, poses and trackers and I think that's great! However current CM costs vs current CM income really hinders the ability to utilize this currency. Much of it is tied to the luck of the AP lottery. Some may see an enormous amount of CM gains or that specific item they want while others next to nothing. This is very disheartening!I think we need to see a significant increase to the amount received in AP drops. Maybe even just add a flat amount you would get with every Apex Pack, with a chance of one of the items being additional crafting metals. Additionally I think it would be great to have some amount added to each level up as well, perhaps somewhere in the 25-35 range. This would also address the less than satisfying rewards we currently have when leveling up providing more potential to translate grind => rewards.The goal is to keep players engaged but that comes in different forms. The gunplay and overall design of game is great and really carries the game on its own, but that alone will not provide capital needed to keep this game going... The rewards and customization is a significant driving factor and as it stands needs some work.These are my current thoughts on the state of the economy right now... What are yours?

Another idea that's been floated here and on reddit is to add an Apex Pack as a reward for winning a game. I like this idea as it gives another avenue to getting AP and it makes winning feel more rewarding.

Great post and thx for taking my points into consideration. @RecklessKaos Also great to know EA reps read and respond to these things. @EA_Blueberry Getting more info about what is planned for future updates would go a long way, but I think the 3 major points to take away here are:- Make currencies both meaningful and obtainable. 3 Currencies might be one too many, but only being able to buy the bulk of items with the currency you have no control over obtaining at all is by far the biggest issue.- Add more avenues to obtain materials or items by improving in the game. Gaining an Apex Pack and/or some currency when winning /placing third would be a driving force to motivate people to improve in the game. It gives people a goal to strive towards that's not simply grinding.- Allow people to support the game with meaningful purchases. Make the premium currency apply to more items at a time, offer bundles/skins at reduced prices on a daily/weekly sale, instead of only allowing some items to be purchased in a short time window.As long as gambling money away on boxes is the biggest money sink, I will not spend a dime in this game, and I think many more players would attest the same.

I just figured they did not want me to buy anything yet.The prices are EA based. A new color for a Gun costs basicly half the price of a new game.The skins overall adds nothing IMO. You buy a new color scheme basicly.I spend alot when i play. But with EA pricing for * that only adds color i will not spend any money.

Personally I'm not a fan of the multi-currency grind/purchase. Systems like these really are the "greed" shining through from their design, and there's no doubt EA will love this system and won't be the ones leading the charge to change it.However, I personally think the system should have been massively simplified;1. Change to only Apex Coins as the singular currency.2. Change levelling to grant 1 lootbox per level.3. Lootbox rewards can contain all standard cosmetics (from White (common) to Gold (Epic)) plus a small chance to get Apex Coins (50 (Com), 100 (Unc), 250 (Leg), 500 (Epic), 1000 (Myth)). All three items could be common graded.4. Apex Coin packs can be purchased (1000 (Com), 2500 (Unc), 5000 (Leg), 10000 (Epic), 25000 (Myth), 50000 (Myth+))5. "Crafting" is replaced by purchasing unlocks at a higher rate ( For example, skins - Common: 250, Uncommon: 1000, Legendary: 2500, Epic: 5000, Mythic (Unique): 10000, Stat Trackers - Common: 50, Uncommon: 100, Legendary: 250, Epic: 500, Mythic: 1000)6. Legends are unlocked using AC: 75007. Player Level 20, and Player Level 40 both should grant 7500 AC allowing for the first two Legends to be unlocked at a similar rate.8. Lootboxes can be bought for 2500 AC with a Guaranteed chance of at least one new Uncommon unlock (the other two unlocks could be common - epic grade, duplicated or not).9. Duplicate items can be rolled, but instead return 50% AC value (So if a duplicate Epic is rolled, the player receives 2500 AC instead as a compensation).So,- "Free to play" players can fully unlock everything by simply playing the game... the likely result will be that they'd be playing for years to obtain enough randomly generated Apex Coins to buy everything (as well as RNG rolling the other unlocks). However, there is actual incentive to keep on grinding out the game to win lootboxes in order to complete the Legend and Armory galleries.- Small-time spenders can buy AC to purchase their desired cosmetics directly.- Big-time spenders can buy AC to purchase more lootboxes guaranteeing a larger chance of more uncommon+ cosmetics.

Thanks @EA_Blueberry and will do

Forum Discussion

RecklessKaos

7 years ago

Packs, Coins, Tokens and Metals oh my... Current Economy and balance issues

I'll preface this by saying we know we're still in the infancy of the game and we don't know what's coming with the Battle Pass, but as it stands currently the economy is a glaring concern to me and many others I'd assume. Many seemed concerned with the multi-currency economy and I agree. But I also think with some balance changes and tweaks it could work. I get you want to entice people into purchasing Apex Coins (AC), but when the system seems so clearly rigged to force you into that it turns a lot of people off...

Apex Coins (AC) - We get it, it's a free game and you need to make money some how, but EA's reputation precedes them. It's no secret many players have less than been impressed with EA's attempts to implement micro-transactions previously and the feeling of greed trumping player satisfaction. At first glance this game seemed ok, but looking further the price point on items available with AC seem far too expensive. The special items can create the desire for players to buy AC to unlock, but it can be a double edged sword. With a high price point it actually has a negative effect (for me at least). I actually feel it's not worth it to spend that much for one single item and therefore am turned off completely from spending additional money. I did buy the Founders Pack to show support of what I feel is a great game with potential, but additional purchase are not likely as it stands now.

Instead of capturing just those that will always spend money regardless of price, I feel if the prices of legendary items were reduced significantly (maybe reduced to 60% of current) you would actually see a much larger number of purchases. Additionally, with the higher prices you may see very limited purchase for just that one specific skin the players feels they "must" have. But if costs were lowered they would likely be more inclined to pick up additional skins to have that variety. This also comes into play for LT with the ability to buy exclusives...

Legend Tokens (LT) - As it stands now Legend Tokens are the only constant reward when leveling up but they will soon start collecting with little to no use for quite some time it seems. So far there only appears to be 2 uses of for LT; unlocking new Legends and buying exclusive weapon skins.

Legends - By level 43 (assuming you weren't able to purchase exclusives) you will have enough LT to purchase both of the currently available locked Legends and after that they sit collecting dust. We know new Legends are expected but with no further details we don't know what avenues will be available for acquiring them.

@DaWolv_vloWaD idea of locking additional legends from the start while slashing the LT cost to unlock is a decent idea. This would give players that sense of something worth grinding for instead of continuing to grind these rewards with little to no use for them. Also, it can be fun to have so many choices right out of the gate but at the same time can be overwhelming. Limiting initial options reduces that overwhelming feeling of "who do I pick" while also creating that sense of "can't wait to see what the next legend is like".
Exclusives - I like the idea but this currently fails IMO because it has a prerequisite of owning a corresponding Legendary skin. For me this is a problem on multiple fronts which identify additional concerns (more detail below). The lottery system is very limited in earned chances, this of course refers to Apex Packs. The lack of ability to earn crafting metals at a reasonable rate and unlock the desired/required legendary skin. As mentioned above legendary items seem too expensive to reasonably justify spending AC to unlock. So as a result LT will continue to collect until the stock lines up with currently owned Legendary skin and a desirable exclusive, or if Legendary skins are made more accessible.

Apex Packs (AP) - From what I've seen the number of AP that can be earned is capped at 45 right now. As stated before we know you want/need people to buy AC to justify this being a free game, but at the same time players don't appreciate feeling handcuffed to an unrewarding grind or being forced to spend money. It's likely we'll see additional chances to earn AP with the Battle Pass but to what extent is unknown, and currently it kinda feels like a slap in the face to not get one at every level. Mainly because the only constant reward at level up is LT, and the issues there outlined above. Personally I'm fine with the chances of cosmetics from the AP, but where the concern lies is this being the only avenue for earning Crafting Metals (CM). This for me is one of the biggest concerns...

Pulling from other suggestions; perhaps change it to give an AP at every level. Possibly add a Daily reward system that provides additional chances for AP. Maybe at milestone levels (every 10 or 25) provide a bulk reward of AP.

Crafting Metals (CM) - I really appreciate this option but it is severely limited in the current economy. As it stands the only way to get CM is from AP, which are limited in earned availability and provide no guarantee to receive CM. So even if you decide to buy AC and use them for AP, there's still no guarantee you'll get the much needed CM. This currency provides the most freedom to unlock all the various cosmetic options, from skins down to trackers. With Banners being the primary showcase for all the cosmetic options and CM being the primary avenue to customize these as desired we need a better stream of incoming CM. There are so many options between skins, frames, poses and trackers and I think that's great! However current CM costs vs current CM income really hinders the ability to utilize this currency. Much of it is tied to the luck of the AP lottery. Some may see an enormous amount of CM gains or that specific item they want while others next to nothing. This is very disheartening!

I think we need to see a significant increase to the amount received in AP drops. Maybe even just add a flat amount you would get with every Apex Pack, with a chance of one of the items being additional crafting metals. Additionally I think it would be great to have some amount added to each level up as well, perhaps somewhere in the 25-35 range. This would also address the less than satisfying rewards we currently have when leveling up providing more potential to translate grind => rewards.

The goal is to keep players engaged but that comes in different forms. The gunplay and overall design of game is great and really carries the game on its own, but that alone will not provide capital needed to keep this game going... The rewards and customization is a significant driving factor and as it stands needs some work.

These are my current thoughts on the state of the economy right now... What are yours?

gameplay discussion

15 Replies

RecklessKaos
7 years ago
Another idea that's been floated here and on reddit is to add an Apex Pack as a reward for winning a game. I like this idea as it gives another avenue to getting AP and it makes winning feel more rewarding.
Ridan82
7 years ago
I just figured they did not want me to buy anything yet.
The prices are EA based. A new color for a Gun costs basicly half the price of a new game.

The skins overall adds nothing IMO. You buy a new color scheme basicly.

I spend alot when i play. But with EA pricing for * that only adds color i will not spend any money.
angeltyrael
7 years ago
yeah the grind is insane , on top of that i didnt know ur limited to 45 packs what? talk about bs , its fine tho give them 2-6 months when they start bleeding players hard becouse everyone has nothing to gain , just like overwatch no content = players dont want to play gameplay is nice but we need to feel like we are working towards something even if its on the slow side , but impossible is a great way to make people give up xD
Stevoyd
7 years ago
Personally I'm not a fan of the multi-currency grind/purchase. Systems like these really are the "greed" shining through from their design, and there's no doubt EA will love this system and won't be the ones leading the charge to change it.
However, I personally think the system should have been massively simplified;
1. Change to only Apex Coins as the singular currency.
2. Change levelling to grant 1 lootbox per level.
3. Lootbox rewards can contain all standard cosmetics (from White (common) to Gold (Epic)) plus a small chance to get Apex Coins (50 (Com), 100 (Unc), 250 (Leg), 500 (Epic), 1000 (Myth)). All three items could be common graded.
4. Apex Coin packs can be purchased (1000 (Com), 2500 (Unc), 5000 (Leg), 10000 (Epic), 25000 (Myth), 50000 (Myth+))
5. "Crafting" is replaced by purchasing unlocks at a higher rate ( For example, skins - Common: 250, Uncommon: 1000, Legendary: 2500, Epic: 5000, Mythic (Unique): 10000, Stat Trackers - Common: 50, Uncommon: 100, Legendary: 250, Epic: 500, Mythic: 1000)
6. Legends are unlocked using AC: 7500
7. Player Level 20, and Player Level 40 both should grant 7500 AC allowing for the first two Legends to be unlocked at a similar rate.
8. Lootboxes can be bought for 2500 AC with a Guaranteed chance of at least one new Uncommon unlock (the other two unlocks could be common - epic grade, duplicated or not).
9. Duplicate items can be rolled, but instead return 50% AC value (So if a duplicate Epic is rolled, the player receives 2500 AC instead as a compensation).
So,
- "Free to play" players can fully unlock everything by simply playing the game... the likely result will be that they'd be playing for years to obtain enough randomly generated Apex Coins to buy everything (as well as RNG rolling the other unlocks). However, there is actual incentive to keep on grinding out the game to win lootboxes in order to complete the Legend and Armory galleries.
- Small-time spenders can buy AC to purchase their desired cosmetics directly.
- Big-time spenders can buy AC to purchase more lootboxes guaranteeing a larger chance of more uncommon+ cosmetics.
RecklessKaos
7 years ago
@Stevoyd I think the cost you posted may still be a little high, but this isn't a bad approach either. I've been trying to avoid referencing the Fortnite model but if we're all honest this is what EA/Respawn's goal seems to be. An awesome free game that generates a lot of revenue through cosmetic purchases. I agree a single currency economy would most definitely simplify things, but would require a much larger overhaul. Bottom line is current cost all around don't seem to be fairly implemented to promote spending.
RecklessKaos
7 years ago
Another thought on crafting metals...

Can we get a bundle of just crafting metals in the store that is purchasable with Apex Coins or even Legend Tokens since they have such a limited use right now?
EA_Blueberry
Community Manager
7 years ago
Great post, @RecklessKaos ! You have a lot of interesting ideas that I'll make sure we pass this up to the dev team to look into. I just replied not too long ago to a similar topic around this in the discussion below too if you wanted to check that out.

https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Feedback/Please-add-rewards-for-level-100-players/td-p/7504056/highlight/false/page/2
RecklessKaos
7 years ago
Thanks @EA_Blueberry and will do
GameDesigner
7 years ago
@EA_Blueberry wrote:
Great post, @RecklessKaos ! You have a lot of interesting ideas that I'll make sure we pass this up to the dev team to look into. I just replied not too long ago to a similar topic around this in the discussion below too if you wanted to check that out.
https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Feedback/Please-add-rewards-for-level-100-players/td-p/7504056/highlight/false/page/2
Good post @RecklessKaos and thank you @EA_Blueberry for you continued support in reporting our concerns and suggestions for improvements to the Apex Legends Development/Design teams for implementation consideration.
I appreciate it. 🙂
DaWolv_vloWaD
7 years ago
Great post and thx for taking my points into consideration. @RecklessKaos
Also great to know EA reps read and respond to these things. @EA_Blueberry
Getting more info about what is planned for future updates would go a long way, but I think the 3 major points to take away here are:

- Make currencies both meaningful and obtainable. 3 Currencies might be one too many, but only being able to buy the bulk of items with the currency you have no control over obtaining at all is by far the biggest issue.
- Add more avenues to obtain materials or items by improving in the game. Gaining an Apex Pack and/or some currency when winning /placing third would be a driving force to motivate people to improve in the game. It gives people a goal to strive towards that's not simply grinding.
- Allow people to support the game with meaningful purchases. Make the premium currency apply to more items at a time, offer bundles/skins at reduced prices on a daily/weekly sale, instead of only allowing some items to be purchased in a short time window.
As long as gambling money away on boxes is the biggest money sink, I will not spend a dime in this game, and I think many more players would attest the same.