Low profile nerf is too much

The more nerfing to the Wraith was a joke, as it should be clear. She is strong, but fair now, as she wasn`t before.

I`m okay with tiers, but lets said a good tier system, should be like that:

You may have S,A,B,C,D tiers legends, but they all should be viable, and the top one should not be OP or broken, as Wraith was before.

If we going by the above tier, Wraith is still an S tier character, but she ain`t broken anymore.

Pathfinder is still a S tier character. If his grapple is nerfed as i think it should, because the CD is just ridiculous low right now, he still be a S tier character, but would be more fair compare to the rest of the legends.

Right now this is my tier list:

S tier: Wraith, Pathfinder, Gibby

A tier: Wattson, Lifeline

B tier: Caustic

C tier: Bangalore, Bloodhound, Crypto

D tier: Octane, Mirage

Right now can`t really said where Revenant is atm. We have to look and see how he is doing with the buffs he get.

Lets forget for a moment the competitive scene, where every single team pick Wraith and Pathfinder, and the rest is filled with Gibby and Wattson, and in very rare scene someone pick a Caustic.

Lets said high to top level gameplay.

Right now players are using Wraith, Pathfinder, Lifeline, Gibby and Wattson, and still you rarely see Caustic.

Octane and Mirage is not viable atm at high to top to pro level of gameplay. High to top Bloodhound and Bangalore is kinda not viable too. Crypto  to be fair is kinda a specific choice for certain gameplay. But not much viable to be fair.

So we got a two legends, that are top 2 from the beginning and a bunch of legends that are obviously not viable at any level. Yeah you can make a lot of noise with Octane, Mirage, Bangalore, Bloodhound and so on, but you have to be higher skill level compare to your opposition, and tiers don`t work that way.

The skill set should be either close or similar.

There is no reason to pick Bangalore over Wraith for example, as well as Bloodhound instead of Path.

If lets said they want this is to be the max level for abilities and legends to have impact and not make them more powerful(as it should not)

I would said Octane needs his ult reworked and be throw in the mix below S tiers. Mirage needs a complete rework for all of his ability and end up like a brand new legends, and needs to land around A tier.

I think while they are not the top dogs, Caustic can be useful for certain situation. Don`t play Crypto and can`t say what he really needs, but he is a specific characters, and for exmaple i don`t like to play such characters, everyone is different tho.

Bangalore and Bloodhounds are average and it should stay the same. Their abilities are balanced atm, maybe hit Bloodhound big head hitbox.

Wattson and Lifeline are okay where are atm. Lifeline was a top pick for a long time, and she is still a solid legends, so i think she is okay where she is atm.

As far as a S tiers i already said what i think. Gibby ends up in there after a lot of buffs and should stay there, cause he totally suck for so long of the game span.

I don`t have problem with the pick rate of Wraith and Pathfinder. As i said Path tactical is just too good atm and he doesn`t need that to be fair. Make it 20 to 25 seconds. Would still be strong to very strong with level 4 helmet.

Right now you either have to kill him instantly or he will just straight up disappear, comeback in a no time and do the same, because of the low cd. 

DreamStare07, wanna check that out ING? Right now i have a problem with Origin, but we can settle this in CS:GO and see who "suck" and who aint. It will show the level of your and my aim, you up for it, or just talk big ?

The moment you start flaming at someone is the moment you give up and show that you don`t have arguments for the fight.

Flaming each other isn't productive to this discussion folks.

However neither is this constant circle of regurgitated facts being reposted every other response.

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@Axs5626Sxa5001 wrote:
@LordloshBang

I appreciate your responses.

I’m still curious though— if you could, right now, nerf Path and Wraith even further, would you? And what would those nerfs be exactly?


This is a good question,  and to those of you unhappy with the current low profile nerf how would you replace it whilst still maintaining legend balance?

 

 

Lets keep this productive. :D

Even all of legends are buffed, the top 3 are still going to be way better.

Gibraltar needed a lot of work to land at the top 3, and its still behind Path and Wraith, but he is in a perfect spot for a tank right now. But in the same time LP, esp Wraith took a lot of ners, but she is still top tier, thats speaks for itself. You cannot balance a game, by just buffing certain legends, while left other legends OP or broken.

You are not properly balancing a game like that. 

With all due respect but people who just care for their character and to be OP, are what is wrong with today gaming, cause this people doesn`t care about overall balance, and the game ends up in a mess.

Respawn while being slow, are doing a great job so far.

Lets discuss your suggestion:
Lets first imagine that LP is removed:

Crypto- that still won`t make him viable at high level gameplay

Mirage - still will be 100000% useless, this is a 3 member team game after all. If this was a solo, maybe would buff him just a little bit

Octane - his tactical and passive are okay, they don`t need rework, his ultimate need. Changing him ultimate to tactical, will make him even worst. What he need is a better ultimate

Bloodhound - going to change nothing

Bangalore - this is a good suggestion

Caustic - this is a good one, but he will be a problem then, and plenty of people will start crying for it.

And your last sentence, about the skilled team of devs, that are obviously working and balancing this game.

So didn`t you think they know better then ? And there is a reason for this nerfs? 

I put the data chart probably for a five or six time, to get a respond for it, but this is a fact that is a very inconvenient for the LP user, aka Wraith, Path and Wattson.

This data shows that this is still the top legends, and Respawn are right to nerf/balancing them. 

But Ablyssoli doesn`t want to even speaks about this fact.

From the very beginning of this game Wraith is the most picked character by far. And from the very beginning, 99,99% of the Pro scene(and we know the game is and should always be balanced at highest possible gameplay level), so her nerf, or like i said it, tuning her down are 100% deserved, and even more, she stayed unbalanced OP/Broken for way too long.

Again even if they totally nerf this character to the ground, Wraith and even Path players doesn`t have the right to complain, because they were getting away with abusing a totally Broken(at point) and OP(after that) character to get an edge.

And they are crying now, even tho she is a top pick, top 2, still probably number 1 legend in the game, which speaks for itself about her playerbase, and how wrong is this for the overall game balance.

And btw i have never ever insulted anyone with a bad word, neither tell someone i obviously don`t know how he plays or how good he is with a label "you suck" ....

@LordloshBangIf you buff weak legends, it makes top tier legends worse, you know that right? And btw Path, Gibby, Wraith, and Wattson are all top tier legends for one reason: they are useful for the team, not because of their smaller hitbox.
Legends will never all have the same team utility, but that's ok cuz most players are not pros, some people prefer a solo playstyle while others want to work as a team, there is something for everyone. Pros play best when they work as a team that's why u see so many of the above mentioned legends.
And fyi every player has the right to complain if his/her favorite legend is being nerfed, playing mirage doesn't make someone's opinion special.

How many times did i have to repeat it ? Its like talking with a broken telephone ....

How in the blue hell will make your legend worst, if you buff other legend, explain it to me ? Like saying if they buff Alternator for some reason, yet R99 will suddenly became worst, don`t make me laugh. The only think that will make is to make more viable certain legend or weapon as the example i gave.

And no you aren`t achieving a good balance, by buffing just a bit top bottom legends, and let completely broken legends stay the same, you aren`t going to do a ***** like that.

For example MK10, they decided to not nerf, but instead buff the low tiers, and they totally f***** the game, and make it unbalanced piece of ****** with completely broken and OP characters.

They also have different box models, and guess what, they also have broken hitbox models and everyone complains about that.

Secondly Wraith especally are picked from day 1 BECAUSE of her hitbox, and everyone knows that. There is even a videos where one guy explained the strafe methods/pattern, and the first thing he explained the hitbox and how easy is to dodge shots with the Wraith, 2837372377 biased people here trying to explain how that doesn`t make a difference, like you missed going to school for god sake.

Yeah Wraith is picked mainly for her hitbox and the strafing with her is a child play, of course if her ability s****** she won`t be picked, but her hitbox is a big reason for her pick rate, and everyone mention and stated that. I don`t know why we even should talk about that. 
Next one, Wattson, there is a bunch of videos that explain her hitbox and how ridiculous strafing method you can use with her. There is like 3-4-5 videos of new strafing method, that works the best with who ? Yeah right Wattson. The one was circle rotation i think, and the other was cut strafing, that works best with her, becuase of her strange hitbox. I think its her rotation durring the strafes.

Again, why in the blue hell Gibby was bottom low and no one ever picked him, before they straight up make him a ability god ? Yeah, right because of his hitbox and idiotic animation movement he have, like you are playing slower and different game. Even before they buffed his ability, he have a very strong abilities, that work great for him and as well for his team.

So obviously he wasnt picked because of his ridiculous hitbox, and everyone stated that.

Thats the main reason from the very beginning i said that Respawn make a terrible mistake with the different hitboxes. If you want a balance game, you should make all hitbox model absolutely the same, otherwise there is always going to be people that aren`t happy with that.

Right now the difference between some legends is huge not only because of the abilities, but also because of the different hitboxes and most importantly their animation movement and animation during strafing. Some legends rotate so much more and are so much harder to hit when they strafe, yet another are like they are not moving at all.

You always forget to mention that.

There is plenty of videos out there about strafing that explain exactly that.

Octane for example doesn`t have the smallest hitbox, but his strafe rotation is great, but his head o dear, i`m 200% covered and can`t see a s****, yet they straight up headshot me to death.

 Same thing when i`m on high ground.

And the moment i pick Banga or Wraith, o dear i straight up dodge way more shots.

And yeah you are right, everyone can cry/aka complain about everything, but your request,/complain does not have valid arguments to have a case.

You cannot expect Wraith to be absolutely over the top from the whole span of this game.

What Respawn did was the right choice. They are tuning her down, by a small margin, to finally put her at balance.

Because if they nerf her to death at once, then people would have dropped her and then we have a problem.

Right now i`m not playing too many matches at Apex Legends, cause i`m Up-ing my skills, by apex aim traienr and CS:GO, but still when i start a game, there is plenty of Wraith players every game, its not like that someone drop her.

Most importantly streamers/top/pro players are not dropping her, which is a good sign.

@LordloshBang Its not about making better legends worse by buffing others, you're getting caught in the language being used.

What @Abyssloli  is saying is that by buffing the weaker legends, you close the gap between the legends in terms of strength, exactly as explained with gibraltar as an example. This is how balancing works.

Nobody is disputing whether or not the current "top 4" are good or not so can we just move past this?

@LordloshBang On a side note, you claimed not to have insulted other players...which you have because i called you out on it a day or so ago. You're now doing it again after claiming not to. If you don't agree with people that's fine, but it's wiser to not participate further if you're going to keep up with the insults.

You don`t get it do you? Now Gibby may win, because Wraith also took a lot of ners, not just because Gibby was buffed ....

But Wraith took a lot of ners, yet legends like Bloodhound was buffed, Revenant as well, and they are yet breathing her dust. Not even going to mention Octane and Mirage.

You are not going to achieve anything, other than a total mess if you are letting broken/op characters running around. No matter how you try to buff the other legends.

And yet mostly Path and Wraith player are complaining hard about Gibby, tho he was a bottom character for so long.

You said buff weak legends, and then complain where they are buffed. High level hypocrisy in there.

MandatoryIDtag, nqh man he straight up said that buffing low legends will make top legends weaker. Go read his post again. ;D
And again they didn`t just buff Gibby right? They also nerf Wraith and other LP legends, right ?

You see now how its work, by tuning down the OP/broken one and by balancing the other to the level they should be.

You can achieve a perfect balance with just buffing legends, the only thing you will achieve is a either a broken mechanics, which someone is abusing or abilities that is just too OP.

And pls go on and show me a 1 insult against any member here. I dare you, go on.

@LordloshBang  I did read his post bud and my comprehension of it was perfect, i understand the point he's making. 

You are correct that nerfs attributed to the gap between the two legends used an example also, however that was not solely due to said nerfs. Season 1 gibby would be slaughtered by season 4 wraith in every scenario, Balancing works both ways.

As for daring me to point out the posts in which you've insulted people, i don't need to. You posted these insults on a public forum and unless you've edited them out, they're there for everybody to see lol.

Im not sure it was from you or from someone else, but in this or in the other topic, there was a people saing they are losing 1v1 fight against Gibby and he need to be nerfed, as his healing and his gun shield. And this come from Wraith players.

And you still don`t get it. I`m not saing they did not buff Gibby and thats give him a edge, i`m saying they need to done a lot of nerfs to the Wraith as well. I never said Legends being top tier makes them broken/OP i said Wraith was broken at one point, and then OP and i clearly stated that she is strong now, but fair, which means she in a good spot. I`m not saying she is broken or OP now. She was once, but not anymore. When you have such legends, best way to fix the things is to tune her down.

You have to also understand, that Respawn probably have their view of legends power and how much they want to effect the overall gameplay, and the rest to be loot/skills. 

So by just buffing certain legends, and not touching the ones that are over the top not always going to work.

As i mention the example with MK10, tho is a completely different game, it has similarity, because of the characters and that it also have tier list, different hitboxes and etc.

The way they approach MK11 is with nerfing over the hill characters, and slightly buff the lower ones, and this is the most balanced MK game ever.

So my point will always stand. I see this in MK10 and i know when you are just trying to buff, you are losing the line and you will end up in a mess.

And yeah i know people don`t like to see nerfs to the their characters, but its the way balance is achieved. I can you more example with POE, which have one of the best DEVS, that are listen to their community and care for their game so much, they still constantly nerfing things around, aka characters/weapons and so on.

You may not like this method, but its used by the Devs and there is obviously a reason for it.

So lets agree to disagree. 

MandatoryIDtag, if you said i insulted someone, you should show what and where the insult was? And you said it was multiple times. And i`m pretty sure in myself that i haven`t that.

And for the other point, let see what he said, because its maybe too hard for you ?

Quote:

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@Abyssloli wrote:
@AOD_Rct_lordloshIf you buff weak legends, it makes top tier legends worse, you know that right?

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@CrazyPlays54  This is what i've been trying to say for far too long now lmao.

BALANCE.

Although maybe not on a monthly basis...that would be too much to keep track of. 😛

There's always going to be a meta, nobody is disputing that, and no it doesn't need to be set in stone eternally.

But on the flip side there shouldnt be such a clear difference in usefulness between legends. As we have with the likes of mirage and octane in comparison to the usual 4.

Each legend should be a viable choice in their own right.

I don't think they will nerf path and wraith any further cuz these two legends are the reason why apex is so fast paced.

CrazyPlays54, nqh as far as i understand Abnyssloli is not put a nerf at all, just straight up buff.

You understand my point. And yeah i`m okay with a meta change, but lets said from a season to season.