Hi everybody. I'm aware there are more important and more interesting topics regarding tanks, but I would like to spend a few words on this topic. Canister Shell is an ammunition with great potential, capable of bringing variety and tactics (and it's also fun, imo)... sadly, continuing on this path, it will remain something that can't be exploited in game.The main problem isn't the weapon itself, but how it works: due its reaload time, shared with the main cannon, it literally halves your arsenal.It's a concept as fundamental as simple. By using a machine gun as a secondary weapon, you can fire twice as much in the same time frame. By managing the heating and main cannon reloading, so with some experience/skill, you can guarantee yourself a continuous fire without dead times.This, considering how many threats each single tank must face, becomes an absolutely essential requirement. Trivial example: just think of two soldiers running towards you with a C4. Using Canister as a secondary, after killing the first soldier, either you manage to escape or you remain defendless (and so you explode).To aggravate the situation we must consider that yep, Canister itself isn't that bad, but it doesn't have an enormous power at the point to require this great malus to be balanced. In fact, even if the main problem is the one just mentioned, we have two others:the spread pattern is truly random: in the same situation (enemy distance, aim position) you can kill as you can't. In fact, when shooting far enemies, remains a safer option to use the main weapon. Sure, you have to be able to calculate the trajectory, but at least it remains a matter of skill... rather than hoping that the pellets acquire a uniform pattern;despite the shotgun nature, it requires impressive accuracy. If an enemy suddenly appears, running, from around a corner, with C4 in hand... and you have to take a shot of instinct, of reflexes, of muscle memory... well, Canister will never be able to give you security. It will never make you feel safe. You will always be at the mercy of the RNG. One more time the main cannon, with an ammo capable of bringing some splash damage, it will be better (just shoot at the ground, on soldier's feet!).This leads to a heavy flattening of the variety. Considering the inferiority of the LMG (compared to the HMG) and considering how niche, situational and nerfed Staff Shell is... 99% of the meta revolves around HMG alone.Now, the solutions could be many... I propose just two:make Canister Shell a true secondary weapon. Just like machine guns. You pop a second smaller cannon under the main one... in order to make their reload time disconnected. This was already happening in first BF3, apparently DICE didn't like it, in this case I think a little nerf would be a better solution than link their reaload times (this way we would also justify the fact being fired from a cannon smaller than the main one);in addition to the current pellets, add others with a lot of spread and also a marked drop off. This would not change anything on medium or long range... it would just make the weapon safer in the extreme short range, where a shotgun should reign;I want to clarify that I don't consider these solutions definitive, perfect, reasoned: I just threw out a few ideas. The part that matters most to me is the first one, where I talked about the problem.Thanks for reading. Greetings!

Thank you for the interesting topic!I assume we are talking about the BF4 MBT canister shot. I think maybe there is a misconception that it being a shot gun style weapon means it is intended for cqc. And while you can certainly use it for that purpose provided your aim is steady the Canister shot is really more of a 25-80m weapon. It's advantage is that it can OHK enemies in that range and that is a big advantage over the LMG and HMG. The reason why is that with LMG/HMG the enemy at those ranges can run into cover before you can finish them off. Canister shell works wonders against enemies peaking out of cover to take RPG shots at you too. If I recall correctly the canister shell also murdered atv's, jet skis and jeeps and did significant damage to helicopters and jets whereas the LMG was infective against them.Given it's slow ROF though it is as you mentioned not at all suited for cqc and for those maps the LMG is a much better fit. They all have their spaces:LMG: CQC kingHMG: All around - Much higher ROF than canister but significantly lower ROF then LMG (also damages light armored vehicles)Canister: OHK out to about 80m, fast projectile velocity and does damage to light armor

the ap shell does a better job imo.....

@astroVBThis video says pretty much everything I wanted to say but probably does a better job and also brings up a powerful point I neglected to mention: To mitigate the load time issue you have the Auto Loader spec and to provide cover fire you have the top gunner.The Canister Shell is a high risk/ high reward weapon and thrives in a *particular environment under specific conditions*. I think eliminating the load time would diminish the value of Auto Loader upgrade as well as the HMG/LMG.All of the penalties you listed are a reasonable price to pay for having very good range and most importantly the OHK capability. Being able to reliably count on killing enemies in certain positions let's you quickly transition to and focus on the task and keep your situational awareness up.

@rainkloud thanks mate!From one side, you are right. Canister is probably meant for the mid range and it has a good potential (in fact I started the thread by saying that).From the other side, I still find there is a problem. Since, as mentioned, we both agree that HMG and Canister (let's reduce the equation to these two factors to make it easy, because on LMG there would be more to say) are different weapons, designed for different contexts, and with already mutual advantages/disadvantages... so why, after firing a shot with the main gun, HMG is immediately ready while Canister nope? Yet they are both secondary weapons!If the answer (from DICE) is purely a question of historical/realty fidelity (I mean: the soldiers in the tank must have the time to charge the new shell in the barrel)... I reply, to DICE, that BF isn't a simulation... and that moreover it would be enough let the shot to start from a secondary smaller cannon.If the answer is about balancing, then I say: since Canister already has its penalties compared to an HMG (slower RoF, less versatile, more risky, more precision needed, worse in close range) that make it balanced with pro e c ons... why should it also be penalized by the shared reload? It's such an additional malus (and anyway, if DICE really didn't like this, it' would be better just a small nerf than the shared realod times)!Don't ger me wrong: it's fair that it has a long cooldown, but at least let it be disconnected to that of the main gun. Because, as interesting as Canister may be, halving your arsenal is not acceptable.

@RNM4010028 exactly; AP can cover its niche... and considering AP + HMG combo, it's just a better option.

astroVB

5 years ago

A little talk about Canister Shell (MBTank)

Hi everybody. I'm aware there are more important and more interesting topics regarding tanks, but I would like to spend a few words on this topic. Canister Shell is an ammunition with great potential, capable of bringing variety and tactics (and it's also fun, imo)... sadly, continuing on this path, it will remain something that can't be exploited in game.

The main problem isn't the weapon itself, but how it works: due its reaload time, shared with the main cannon, it literally halves your arsenal.

It's a concept as fundamental as simple. By using a machine gun as a secondary weapon, you can fire twice as much in the same time frame. By managing the heating and main cannon reloading, so with some experience/skill, you can guarantee yourself a continuous fire without dead times.

This, considering how many threats each single tank must face, becomes an absolutely essential requirement. Trivial example: just think of two soldiers running towards you with a C4. Using Canister as a secondary, after killing the first soldier, either you manage to escape or you remain defendless (and so you explode).

To aggravate the situation we must consider that yep, Canister itself isn't that bad, but it doesn't have an enormous power at the point to require this great malus to be balanced. In fact, even if the main problem is the one just mentioned, we have two others:

the spread pattern is truly random: in the same situation (enemy distance, aim position) you can kill as you can't. In fact, when shooting far enemies, remains a safer option to use the main weapon. Sure, you have to be able to calculate the trajectory, but at least it remains a matter of skill... rather than hoping that the pellets acquire a uniform pattern;
despite the shotgun nature, it requires impressive accuracy. If an enemy suddenly appears, running, from around a corner, with C4 in hand... and you have to take a shot of instinct, of reflexes, of muscle memory... well, Canister will never be able to give you security. It will never make you feel safe. You will always be at the mercy of the RNG. One more time the main cannon, with an ammo capable of bringing some splash damage, it will be better (just shoot at the ground, on soldier's feet!).

This leads to a heavy flattening of the variety. Considering the inferiority of the LMG (compared to the HMG) and considering how niche, situational and nerfed Staff Shell is... 99% of the meta revolves around HMG alone.

Now, the solutions could be many... I propose just two:

make Canister Shell a true secondary weapon. Just like machine guns. You pop a second smaller cannon under the main one... in order to make their reload time disconnected. This was already happening in first BF3, apparently DICE didn't like it, in this case I think a little nerf would be a better solution than link their reaload times (this way we would also justify the fact being fired from a cannon smaller than the main one);
in addition to the current pellets, add others with a lot of spread and also a marked drop off. This would not change anything on medium or long range... it would just make the weapon safer in the extreme short range, where a shotgun should reign;

I want to clarify that I don't consider these solutions definitive, perfect, reasoned: I just threw out a few ideas. The part that matters most to me is the first one, where I talked about the problem.

Thanks for reading. Greetings!

discussion

19 Replies

rainkloud
Seasoned Ace
5 years ago
Thank you for the interesting topic!
I assume we are talking about the BF4 MBT canister shot. I think maybe there is a misconception that it being a shot gun style weapon means it is intended for cqc. And while you can certainly use it for that purpose provided your aim is steady the Canister shot is really more of a 25-80m weapon. It's advantage is that it can OHK enemies in that range and that is a big advantage over the LMG and HMG. The reason why is that with LMG/HMG the enemy at those ranges can run into cover before you can finish them off. Canister shell works wonders against enemies peaking out of cover to take RPG shots at you too. If I recall correctly the canister shell also murdered atv's, jet skis and jeeps and did significant damage to helicopters and jets whereas the LMG was infective against them.
Given it's slow ROF though it is as you mentioned not at all suited for cqc and for those maps the LMG is a much better fit. They all have their spaces:
LMG: CQC king
HMG: All around - Much higher ROF than canister but significantly lower ROF then LMG (also damages light armored vehicles)
Canister: OHK out to about 80m, fast projectile velocity and does damage to light armor
RNM4010028
5 years ago
the ap shell does a better job imo.....
astroVB
5 years ago
@rainkloud thanks mate!
From one side, you are right. Canister is probably meant for the mid range and it has a good potential (in fact I started the thread by saying that).
From the other side, I still find there is a problem. Since, as mentioned, we both agree that HMG and Canister (let's reduce the equation to these two factors to make it easy, because on LMG there would be more to say) are different weapons, designed for different contexts, and with already mutual advantages/disadvantages... so why, after firing a shot with the main gun, HMG is immediately ready while Canister nope? Yet they are both secondary weapons!
If the answer (from DICE) is purely a question of historical/realty fidelity (I mean: the soldiers in the tank must have the time to charge the new shell in the barrel)... I reply, to DICE, that BF isn't a simulation... and that moreover it would be enough let the shot to start from a secondary smaller cannon.
If the answer is about balancing, then I say: since Canister already has its penalties compared to an HMG (slower RoF, less versatile, more risky, more precision needed, worse in close range) that make it balanced with pro e c ons... why should it also be penalized by the shared reload? It's such an additional malus (and anyway, if DICE really didn't like this, it' would be better just a small nerf than the shared realod times)!
Don't ger me wrong: it's fair that it has a long cooldown, but at least let it be disconnected to that of the main gun. Because, as interesting as Canister may be, halving your arsenal is not acceptable.
astroVB
5 years ago
@RNM4010028 exactly; AP can cover its niche... and considering AP + HMG combo, it's just a better option.
rainkloud
Seasoned Ace
5 years ago
@astroVB This video says pretty much everything I wanted to say but probably does a better job and also brings up a powerful point I neglected to mention: To mitigate the load time issue you have the Auto Loader spec and to provide cover fire you have the top gunner.

The Canister Shell is a high risk/ high reward weapon and thrives in a *particular environment under specific conditions*. I think eliminating the load time would diminish the value of Auto Loader upgrade as well as the HMG/LMG.

All of the penalties you listed are a reasonable price to pay for having very good range and most importantly the OHK capability. Being able to reliably count on killing enemies in certain positions let's you quickly transition to and focus on the task and keep your situational awareness up.
ninjapenquinuk
Seasoned Ace
5 years ago
I was at the Tank Museum yesterday (Bovington) and saw the nasty looking Canister round next to the Chally 1. Quite a beast of a round and would ruin an infantry platoons day.
Rusty Rat
Rising Ace
5 years ago
@astroVB It is called canister shell, because it is a shell fired from the main gun. The simple fact that it fires from the barrel of the main gun means that spread close in is almost non existent, it is more of a specialised mid range weapon, not a shotgun.
The tanks have MGs fore close quarter defense. However this being 20 years in the future, there could be defensive unlocks of some sort in the vein of Gunner Incendiary or proximity scan. Up to the crew then what they want to equip and meaning you have to make real choices, not just have another weapon strapped on.
Rusty Rat
Rising Ace
5 years ago
@astroVB Canister is not a secondary weapon, it is an alternative round fired out of the main gun. This is similar to firing a HE, SABOT or STAFF round.
When you swap to MG, you are changing weapon not ammunition type. The best analogy is that swapping between main gun and MG is like an infantryman swapping between primary and pistol. Swapping between standard AT round and Canister is like an infantryman using a shotgun swapping to slug/dart/frag round, they have to reload (yes I know they are attachments in the game, but what would happen for real).
astroVB
5 years ago
@rainkloud I think we simply have different opinions, it's legit... because my point of view is precisely that I see it as a high risk weapon, no high reward option... in the sense: I'm not saying it doesn't have its niche, but the list of the * outweighs the pros. In other words limit your gameplay, limit your choices.
An AP + HMG combo instead allows you to play more for your team, to "eat" the flags, allows you to cover every field, allows you to do more kills, gives you more survival, more versatility.
Example: AP + HMG allows you to clean, remaining mid-range, a flag like Canister... maybe not that good, but we come close. In some cases you will give the soldiers time to return to cover, but in other cases you can kill an enemy behind a wall by blowing up everything.
The opposite case, however, it's not as valid. AP + HMG allows you to break through a flag and make a clean sweep, giving a huge hand to the team and contributing to the victory (that's the goal of the game)... while, entering a populated flag, using the Canister, is almost a suicide.
In a game where, suddenly, you can be surrounded by more and more soldiers... all possibly armed with weapons that can make you explode in one hit or weapons that have a legalized aimbot, as a tanker you can't afford downtimes.
And that's why, just take a ride on youtube, reddit, etc. etc., 90% of "meta" players will tell you: "Canister is nice and fun, but it will always be overshadowed by AP + HMG combo" (the only exception could be having a friend, with headphones, as a gunner).
But even the ability to kill with one shot, in medium range, is overrated... first of all, it requires an incredible accuracy, so since we're all human, it certainly doesn't give you the confidence to land the target.
Plus you still have to deal with the RNG pattern of the pellets, which sometimes gives you just an hit marker even if your aim was good. The AP ammunition can (obviously not perfectly, for this I say that Canister is not useless, simply overshadowed) also cover this niche... just need some practice in calculating the trajectory.
I hope I wasn't too boring. Greetings.
astroVB
5 years ago
@Rusty Rat that's the problem: it's a primary weapon, as you rightly say, but it occupies the secondary slot. This implies that it halves your arsenal. Instead of having X weapons and Y... you have X OR Y.