Forum Discussion

Rising Adventurer

2 months ago

A Call to Bioware: Please Unlock Hardened Lucanis' Romance (ACT 1 SPOILERS)

I've been trawling through the various forum and reddit threads on this topic for the past week or so, so I know at least a good few people who want to romance Lucanis feel similarly. And to be clear, this is not a post complaining about Lucasnis' romance generally - the incredible slow-burn seems to culminate in a tamer romance than many were expecting, and that has clearly rubbed some people the wrong way. I don't have many thoughts on that - I can understand why people would want something more substantial from Lucanis, but that's beyond the scope of what I'm asking for here. What I'm looking for is the bare minimum: Bioware, please unlock Hardened Lucanis' romance.

I've seen a lot of good points already posted by others about why this should be the case, so I thought I'd compile the points I've seen here. I might be screaming into the void with this one, and if Bioware ignores us, then I can rest assured that the modding community might have my back. However, it's nice to imagine a company with time to respond to constructive feedback.

Reason 1: It's Inconsistent.

Lucanis locking Rook out of a romance after Rook saves Minrathous is inconsistent writing. I would understand if Rook was a Crow who abandoned their city during a time of need. It would make sense if Rook levied the full forces of the Veilguard against only one of the dragons. It would make sense if Rook was known to be better at killing dragons, so where Rook chooses to go makes all the difference. It would make sense if Rook had a magic Dragon-Killing Veil Hand that could only go to one location at a time. As it is, however, Rook is not especially more skilled at dragon-killing than any of the other Veilguard members, and Rook delegates half of the Veilguard to protect the city that Rook themselves does not go to.

More to the point, the game claims that Lucanis does not have time for a romance with you while he's picking up the remains of the city. Now, on the face of it, this would be fine. I'm not morally opposed to an RPG character making romance decisions based on player role play, even if it hurts my feelings. That's just the price of art. However, as many before me have pointed out, Lucanis does have time for a romance with Neve after the destruction of his city. This stings especially badly for anyone playing a Shadow Dragon Rook, as they are in the exact same boat as Neve, but they are being rejected for making the same call as she did. And that's not even mentioning how the romance on the other side of this particular coin works...

Reason 2: It's Inequitable

Locking off Lucanis' romance is inequitable, in more ways than one. On the most basic level, it's not equal with any of the other romances in the game. Lucanis' is (I believe) the only romance that can get locked off in such a way. Again - I'm not opposed to roleplay locking off a romance. If Neve could not forgive you for forsaking Minrathous, then at least Lucanis would have parity with another romanceable NPC. It might have been neat to see every character have something that precludes them from further romance. I'm very aware of how much Dragon Age fans enjoy having NPCs that function as their own fully-fleshed characters that make decisions regardless of what the player character wants. As it is, however, having only one NPC romance get easily locked off is surprising and disappointing.

However, and more importantly than comparing fictional characters, it's inequitable towards players. If my journeys on other Dragon Age forums are any indication, I might be unpopular in my opinion that Pansexual/"Playersexual" characters are my preferred Bioware companion writing style. It leaves romantic roleplay open for all types of people. It opens up nonbinary roleplay, as we've seen in this game. It makes me focus on seeing the NPC as a person with goals and hang-ups that need to be honored, as opposed to a list of Canon Sexualities that need to be built around first. As a queer person myeslf, I prefer this, and having it come back in Veilguard feels refreshing after Inquisition. Locking off one of the masculine-coded romances (especially the one that seems to, at least initially, be pulling the Zevran and Fenris girlies out of the woodwork) feels unintentionally cruel, especially in a game that otherwise seems to have worked so hard to be more open, inclusive, and representative than any other entry in the series. Now, again, if Lucanis' reaction was on par with the other NPC companions, then the equity question would be less of a concern. If there was an opportunity to mess up every romance, then it would be hitting everyone equally. As it is, this choice removes one masculine-coded romance from the table, leaving those of us craving one with fewer options.

Reason 3: Industry standard

I hate to be the person stammering "bu-bu-Baldur's Gate" in a Dragon Age thread, but when Baldur's Gate III launched, I knew it would be coming for Bioware's lunch. It succeeded in a major way. Now, I'm happy to see that Veilguard hasn't necessarily stumbled in the face of a huge new title in the CRPG space that offers a lot of what old-school Dragon Age used to. However, this challenge presents an opportunity to Bioware. Using upcoming game patches to do more than just bare-minimum bug-fixes would be an amazing response to seeing Larian Studios do the same. They used the patching system to add narrative and character content in a way that I haven't ever seen out of major studios. Seeing the number of people coming out against Lucanis' romance being locked off in this way, it would certainly warm my heart to see Bioware at least conscientiously engage with these criticisms.

Just my thoughts. Again - I know this might be preaching to the choir, but...a girl can hope.

discussion

feedback

BunsAndDragons
Seasoned Newcomer
2 months ago
When I got a conversation with him about making Neve's favorite dessert, I was honestly so put out. No mention of past flirting pre-dragon attack, no conversation with him for closure, NOTHING. Just a sad little pop up that says he doesn't have time for my Rook anymore. (I played on launch so that specific line wasn't even there) I'm still coping that this is a bug, but if it's not, whoever made this particular decision affect ONE character's romance subplot needs to reevaluate because this is such a wasted opportunity.

Don't get me wrong I'm still going to finish the game, in fact, I've enjoyed everything so far. But romance subplots have always been my favorite part of any RPG, and I basically missed out on the other romances because I was still hoping Lucanis' would progress.
- DexiDerp
  Seasoned Vanguard
  2 months ago
  At least give me the option to smash the stupid pie, instead of forcing me to co-sign the relationship building that you apparently have no way of preventing. Spite would like it, I bet. Let Rook be bitter, make the weird narrative decision at least have some payoff!
  - PixeledReality
    Seasoned Traveler
    2 months ago
    Ha! I just remembered how DA2 presented us with the option to screw Aveline's chances with Donnic.
    And although I love Tevinter lore, Aveline>>>Neve. 😇
PixeledReality
Seasoned Traveler
2 months ago
Co-signed, and thank you for the summary. Cut the Shadow Dragon Rooks some slack, at least, if Neve gets a free pass, when she, ostensibly, is too caught up in Minrathous' woes to let anyone inside her heart.

Otherwise, let the Neve/Lucanis ship sail too, as long as Treviso gets shafted.
rosemusk
Seasoned Novice
2 months ago
Yes, please! At the very least, if Rook/Lucanis is locked out, then Neve/Lucanis should be locked out as well. Having Lucanis romancing Neve after rejecting Rook is just rubbing salt on the wound.
Furthermore, it is an inconsistent and contradictory treatment of his character and it's jarring to see. No time for Rook, but plenty of time for Neve? Does he not know who he wants? What are we, chopped liver?
- fishonamission
  Rising Adventurer
  2 months ago
  It definitely feels like a bandaid solution to claim "he doesn't have time" when he clearly does, just not with Rook. Makes some part of me hope it's a stop-gap while they patch other things, but...that's probably just me trying to cope.
cornerbite
Seasoned Adventurer
2 months ago
Whole thing is disappointing. ALL of the romanced are disappointing. Just got to Bellara's "commit" scene and wow, what a...
wow. Absolutely no effort into that writing whatsoever. Just
"You sure"
"Yup"
"Kay."
*Rook leaves the room*
They really dropped the ball with this stuff, and I feel like if they had done all of this well, it would have really gone a long way in salving all the other wounds this game has.
No one wanted to see Luca and Neve together at the expense of the character we're playing, and no one expected to have to completely headcanon our own relationships with these characters.
Oh and while you're at it, give us a BREAK UP button that triggers the other scenes to start up again LIKE WE HAD IN PREVIOUS GAMES so when we do, inevitably, get let down, we can at least give someone else a go to see if that goes any better.
- fishonamission
  Rising Adventurer
  2 months ago
  I have a pretty high tolerance for lackluster romance (hence why I'm still chasing Lucanis even despite it all).
  I suspect that Veilguard is what Dragon Age II wanted to be, given more proper development time. The friend/romance progression feels a lot to me like Dragon Age II, except with so much more content to bloat the time between new companion scenes. I like the side quest content, generally, but the bloat can make it feel like you never really get to talk to your companions, and all NPC arcs stagnate for weird amounts of in-game time. When you add the fact that the convo wheel has been removed in favor of Awkwardly Standing In Someone's Room, it really feels like Rook rarely gets to talk to their companions.
  A lot of those things are probably too large to fix. I wish all of the romances had been treated with more care, but having to fight against silly RP calls to engage with one of the tamest, least built romances in the game feels extra bad. If Hardened Lucanis wasn't locked off, I could at least imagine the drama of the two reconciling after his loss in Treviso.
  - cornerbite
    Seasoned Adventurer
    22 days ago
    "Awkwardly Standing In Someone's Room"
    The worst mechanic ever introduced in a video game, ever. It's bad enough when the character is alone in their space; it's doubly uncomfortable when there are 2 companions standing together. I found myself feeling really weird just casually walking by to overhear the conversation, and this is a video game and these people aren't even real. But it was still a visceral discomfort. Like, it's not good manners. Rook wasn't invited to these conversations.
    A few spoilers ahead, don't read if you're still experiencing story:
    For example, the conversation with Harding and Emmrich about their camping trip. It's cute, but I had already gotten the lock in scene with her by that point, and there was a portion in the dialogue where she says something about not worrying because the of the camping trip she's planning with Rook. Which of course, isn't a real thing, doesn't happens. But I felt like an intruder, she's more interested in spending time alone with Emmrich than Rook. And throws Rook a crumb almost as an afterthought.
    Then there's Taash. I had an irrational irritation whenever I saw them together, and in at least one case it was even justified. Harding's mother sends Taash cookies or something, so it's clear they have come up in those letters Harding is always writing. There's no evidence Harding has even TOLD her mother about Rook, at least, I couldn't find a single codex where she acknowledges they are even friends much less in a relationship.
    And then there's the continued flirting between those two, and Taash telling Harding to let them know if Rook "doesn't treat her right" or whatever. Taash is a literal adolescent and I can't believe that's Rook's serious competition with Harding. What does Harding do? Just giggles, because she giggles at literally EVERYTHING Taash says.
    It's like the developers didn't even like their own main character, because all the story revolves around other characters interactions with one another. And if they didn't like Rook, I think that explains why so many folks have reported feeling disconnected from Rook as well.
    I'm glad they didn't get nominated for GOTY. They HAVE to learn some lessons from this. We can't depend on just Larian to deliver us these rich, interactive experiences.
fishonamission
Rising Adventurer
2 months ago
Knew I was forgetting something, but the silly roleplay call of asking Rook to ignore the potential fall of Minrathous to the Venatori for the sake of a romance plot line is also ehhhhhhh. Again, I'd get it if Rook were a Crow. I can also do the mental gymnastics of figuring that Minrathous is a mage city with a Laser Beam Capitol, but...apparently Minrathous gets hit so badly by the dragon, even compared to Blighted Treviso (despite Treviso's lack of standing army). As a Shadow Dragon Rook, I really had to ignore any common-sense role play to make the call to save Treviso.
zsusensei
Seasoned Newcomer
2 months ago
Totally agree Lucanis Romance lockout is just doesn't make any sense plus unfair.
Lock out Neve romance too or make both of them available with hardened difficulties ofc.
Kumikuro
Seasoned Novice
2 months ago
I joined the forums just so I could echo this sentiment. To go from DA2 where you can romance a hardened Fenris as a MAGE, to go to this feels really disappointing. I don't mind if he doesn't want to romance me, but I do feel that should certainly rule out Neve as an option for him also.
- PixeledReality
  Seasoned Traveler
  2 months ago
  Fenris as a Mage, Anders as an apostate of humble origins in support of Circles (LOL!), Cassandra as an anti-Chantry bigot, Cullen after convincing him to interrupt the lyrium withdrawal until the mission's over... And the list goes on.
  - Kumikuro
    Seasoned Novice
    2 months ago
    You listed some of my most favourite romances and I couldn't agree more. It feels like there are SO many things that they didn't think through or that they were just careless with. The game feels like it got the GoT final season treatment. Rushed so they could move on to something else.
- fishonamission
  Rising Adventurer
  2 months ago
  You know what, the Fenris/Mage!Hawk point is incredibly valid. Fenris is vocally anti-mage, but that choice doesn't lock Hawke out.
  Lucanis feels like the most Fenris-coded romance (idk, somehow), so it feels extra relevant.
PixeledReality
Seasoned Traveler
2 months ago
17 likes to this post... Come on, Devs, be reasonable. 🙏
- fishonamission
  Rising Adventurer
  2 months ago
  😭I just think it's an easy thing to unlock and it doesn't really require any extra VA work or anything from the team. I mean I don't get the ins and outs of coding, I just think this one ask can't be that hard.
  - PixeledReality
    Seasoned Traveler
    2 months ago
    Girl, at this point, all of us agree that we can settle for those 2-3 deflated romance scenes the Lucanis pack comes with, it's not just about getting the content we paid for, it's -to quote Vivienne- about restoring sanity to the world.
    
    (That said, imagine if BioWare had come up with a love triangle for the Lucanis and Neve situation, maybe even for Taash and Harding. Though, they'd have to start by remembering they used to be quality RPG developers once.)
PixeledReality
Seasoned Traveler
23 days ago
Skip to 7:10.
Why a Hardened Lucanis is sooo Different from a Hardened Neve - Dragon Age: The Veilguard
Some worthy arguments to be certain, but the fact of the matter is, a Shadow Dragon origin Rook is unjustifiably penalised. I understand that BioWare will probably not be addressing the issue any further, but I know for sure I will never pre-order a game from them in the future because of that situation. Yes, I feel that strongly about it.
Sincerely,
A fan with 20+ years of dedication to BioWare.
- fishonamission
  Rising Adventurer
  22 days ago
  I watched the time segment that you recommended. I've been in the (possibly unpopular) camp that I personally don't respect the "It's what the character would do" when it comes to NPCs, especially when it leads to inequitable romance outcomes. It's why I'm also not a fan of "Canon Sexualities" - it only ends limiting Real Life People in favor of honoring fake fictional people.
  
  I would be fine with "It's What Lucanis Would Do" if there was an alternative of "What Neve Would Do" also leads to a locked-off romance - that's at least a little more equitable. If every romance option had something that locked them off, that'd be even more interesting. In the medium of video-games (especially RPGs), I'm always going to favor Player Experience over the preferences over fictional people who Did Not Have To Be Written That Way.
  
  Ultimately I think we generally agree that for one reason or another, this writing choice isn't 100% based in logic.
  - cornerbite
    Seasoned Adventurer
    22 days ago
    Agreed. Lock him out if you want, but lock Neve out as well for making the exact same choice. Consistency is what really has folks riled up here, not just that a hardened Lucanis is locked. I feel like if they hadn't thrown in the insult of Neve being a Minrathous Shadow Dragon he apparently can get over his personal stuff to date, folks would have just accepted it and quietly chosen to save Treviso next time around.
    Of course, that's also setting aside it being questionable at all that you HAVE to make a choice which city you will PERSONALLY deploy to, sometimes an arbitrary one if you have an origin that isn't tied to the Dragons or the Crows and no real allegiance to either city, and you're punished for it in some way. But that's just one annoyance in a game that really has left me sour on the entirety of the brand in general.
- seliara17
  Seasoned Novice
  11 days ago
  It’s also frustrating/annoying because I wouldn’t even want to romance him half as much without the tension choosing Minrathous adds lol I romance Fenris as a mage for a reason.
seliara17
Seasoned Novice
2 months ago
I’ve never signed in here before and I am now purely to upvote because of this sheer disappointment and ridiculousness. The romances already lack an astounding amount of depth compared to all previous games and then they lock one of them like this? Especially one of the likely most popular ones? A lot of people play these games specifically for the companion relationships, platonic or otherwise… that they dropped the ball on them so spectacularly is kind of mind blowing?? No walk up cutscenes, a la Cullen or Dorian? No extensive trees exploring their background and opinions/feelings on everything?
This is a Spanish/Italian coded lover and assassin… it lacks the passion you’d think would be present. Tbh, I think what a lot of people expected or would like to see are those scenes that were cut. A romantic gondola date, a little kinky weapon play, a night swim love scene etc… fun, sweet, spicy things that make it feel intimate that are entirely missing. Without them it feels very unfinished like the last half of his romance is gone.
Now, it’s completely understandable if you don’t help Treviso to harden him and it to be more of a slow burn as you gradually need to win back his trust. That is actually a great set up for the angsty types of situations I usually go for! (MageHawke x Fen being the best, Solavellan, etc The player character waited multiple years in game for those payoffs.) It feels like there’s tension when they speak or even when Lucanis has reasons for avoiding Rook initially, mutual pining, unresolved issues etc… good things we love to see lmao it really could’ve been a wonderful set up…. If it was executed properly. And now, if you were even allowed to continue.
But, yes, as everyone seems to agree it’s not fair to lock Lucanis when Neve doesn’t. And even worse him to get with Neve who did the same thing when he has no apparent time for Rook romance. (They’re cute I have no issue with this if Rook locked in another choice)
I think SD Rook especially shouldn’t be locked. Perhaps it would make sense if a Crow Rook was locked as it’s more of a betrayal? But leaving it as is just puts a bad vibe on the whole thing unfortunately. I really hope they listen to all the feedback and patch it up. I’m very happy with the combat (aside from wishing I could play a healer) and character creator, but please fix the relationships, the one thing people assumed they’d get right lol
- fishonamission
  Rising Adventurer
  2 months ago
  Listen I'm even fine with Lucanis being relatively tame. Exploring a bit deeper into his reluctance to be in a relationship, actually engaging with the slow burn by showing that he does WANT it, even if he's scared to take it, would make it so much better. I actually love doofy, domestic, inexperience Lucanis, but some of his scenes are SO bad. The commitment scene makes me want to die.
  - seliara17
    Seasoned Novice
    2 months ago
    Oh for sure, I mean I’ll take anything really, which shows how desperate I am lmao And yes ofc sweet, domestic assassin bf is chefs kiss <3 Inexperience in all forms can be pretty cute ngl but overall it just feels lacking as is. Even if they just unlocked it and added a scene you could visit them for cuddles or cooking together or a kiss would be really nice.