"DarjeloSalas;c-2388109" wrote:
"Legend91;c-2388093" wrote:
"DarjeloSalas;c-2388091" wrote:
"Ravens1113;c-2388089" wrote:
"DarjeloSalas;c-2387988" wrote:
"Legend91;c-2387975" wrote:
"DarjeloSalas;c-2387917" wrote:
"telboy007;c-2387916" wrote:
This is why all the crystals moved to GAC, all good prep for this pay to win feature. Praise datacrons. Praise pay to win.
Are they really pay to win?
Do you have a bunch of 90+% dodge DCs beside all the 'standard' ones that one should have at this point (a few empire CD reduction ones incl. one for LV and one with DV bonus turn, a Dash bonus turn one and two grit ones?
Let me know how to get 3, 5, 7 or even 10 DCs with 80++% dodge without spending, I'm curious.
Of course one can build up a solid DC collection just by doing smart and efficient farming with 3x 50 crystal refreshs but that doesn't mean that someone cannot go completely bonkers on them and drop a ridiculous amount of money to acquire those 10x 90+% dodge ones and completely dominate GAC with them.
Yes, I’ve got lv9 DV, LV, Dash crons, 2 x grit, 3 x CD reduction and also the one that’s got for Inquisitors (2% TM gain on debuff expiry). Other than the last one I got them all in the first conquest. I stopped doing my 3x50 refreshes after 7 days of the last conquest because I couldn’t see any reason for me to get any more cron mats.
But, can you please remember to put the goalposts back when you’ve finished moving them?
You’re equating the “win” part of pay to win with having multiple 80% dodge crons, which is something you have invented in your head. Datacrons can fulfil their role perfectly well for the overwhelming majority of the player base without reaching absurd quantities of absurd dodge chance - and crucially - without spending any real money or crystals that you wouldn’t have already spent on conquest in the first place.
And as for players like Worminator, how many forumers need to ever concern themselves with his collection? And his GAC record is pretty much 50/50 over the last couple of months anyway, which doesn’t sound much like pay to win to me.
Datacrons remind me of mods. There is RNG when rolling them, but by and large the people who put more into them will get a better and deeper collection. If that involves money, so be it, but nobody can come on this forum and state that datacrons in and of themselves are pay to win, because it just isn’t true.
You’re grossly overstating the impact of mods in comparison to DC’s and their abilities.
It’s not about moving goal posts though, it’s a matter of fact. Everyone has limited chances to get resources to improve and re roll DC’s now with CG’s horrible update to the economy, which when it was done was to monetize it even more; not to help the players.
If you don’t get the proper rolls then you’ll exhaust your mats quite quickly. Once that’s it, you’re sunk and need to burn crystals or buy packs in the store to get more; or pay a ridiculous amount of ally points or SSC which is needed for gear.
Case in point for this iteration of DC’s. My luck has been horrible so if I want to get those “amazing” dodge DC’s to pair with cooldown reductions and LV mastery/ult charge, i need to burn through cash. I’ve lost plenty of fights against LV simply because of unreal dodge chances making it about luck and not skill.
So if people are paying to get those DC’s, and are winning because of it, then yes, it’s pay to win.
This is another occasion where we’ll agree to disagree it appears.
My comment on moving goalposts was aimed at Legend but can be extended to you if you’re redefining “winning” as owning the most desirable DCs that also have high dodge chance. People all across the playerbase are winning without those DCs. It’s unrealistic to suggest that winning is only possible if you own multiple high dodge DCs.
You have lost vs high dodge DCs, as have I, but when I surveyed the DC inventory of my opponent in that instance I saw no evidence that they had paid for anything.
There are plenty people “winning” at GAC who haven’t spent anything on datacrons. And people like Worminator who obviously has spent on datacrons aren’t “winning” any more than other players either.
I don’t think you read what I said about mods properly. I’m not making any statement about the impact of mods compared to DCs, merely pointing out that they have a similar element of RNG and investment involved in building up your inventory. Those that put more effort / resource in will - on average - have a better inventory than those that put in less effort / resource. This is very clear in our TWs since DCs arrived - our guild have a 13-1 record in the last 14 and only in our defeat did our opponents have a better DC rating than us. Nobody is paying for them, just engaging with Conquest.
And this is why I suggest it’s a lazy forum generalisation. There are dozens of forumers who clearly despise DCs and many openly state they won’t engage with them. If those players are “losing” at GAC, it seems a logical fallacy to suggest it’s because others are paying for their DCs. We can get a healthy stockpile just through a pretty standard level of Conquest engagement.
You keep brining up the skill aspect of players which has nothing to do with whether DCs are p2w or not. I don't know how skilled Worminator is and I also guess it's this specific DC set that he decided to whale out on cuz of how busted high dodge% is. He only lost his last match, before that he won 5 in a row at 4000+ SR level. Time will tell on how his ladder climb is gonna look like. But even if he's gonna lose a few matches that still points back to the player skill aspect. Give those DC collection to someone like Hawkeyes (who was camping on #1 before DCs arrived), Sashaisha (who has been camping on the #1 spot for so long in the DC era) or Fatal (who certainly has the skill to go for #1) and you'll probably have a new undefeated #1 camper. Or you could give that DC collection to anyone that can actually equip them (= has enough R5 chars) and that person would 100% punch up his weight.
But maybe I just don't understand what "pay to win" means. Maybe you can tell me.
I’m not sure I keep bringing up the skill aspect? But it’s definitely relevant. If you give some of the players you listed control of my account for 3 months and simultaneously gave me control of theirs, I’m pretty certain that their accounts would drop in my hands and mine would climb. These players are highly skilled regardless of DCs.
As for the definition of “pay to win”, I imagine that’s why there’s a difference of opinion here.
For me, “pay to win” has always implied one of two things:
- if you don’t pay, you’re much more likely to lose
- If you do pay, you’re more or less guaranteed to win.
And that’s why I can’t agree that DCs are “pay to win”. There will be thousands who are “winning” in GAC having spent absolutely nothing on DCs. And I’ll bet that some of those who have spent on DCs are still losing a fair amount of the time as well.
But others, and this might well include you, seem to think that the only real winners are those at the absolute tip of the spear in Kyber 1. When looking at their DC collections, it seems pretty obvious that many of them have spent to build them. I just don’t see any relevance to that, though, as I will simply never be able to compete with guys like Fatal, Hawkeyes, Sashaisha etc, irrespective of the existence of DCs - and neither will 90%+ of the player base.
For me the definition of pay to win has always been to "gain a (significant) advantage by spending money". The form or grade of advantage can obviously vary - bypassing the farming time of a new powerful marquee char and get him on relics day 1 of his release (very low p2w factor in most cases, only like SK level chars gated behind marquees would have a certain impact), mod farming (more significant advantage if someone spends a serious amount of money here) or DCs in their current OP state with broken/OP mechanics like empire CDR & bonus turns and stats like high dodge (high impact).
All those advantages that ppl can pay for are forms of p2w (to my definition) that can add up and increase someones chance to win but in no way guarantee that (player skill coming into play aswell as facing tougher opponents when climbing the ladder). And of course there are f2p ppl that are very successful in GAC and have reached a certain ceiling. Doesn't mean that they coudn't just decide to take 5000$, go bonkers on DCs and build up a bunch of 90+% dodge DCs and start climbing even higher.
Capital Games Team
