Easy counter to phoneix squad
Zaul+DT+ep=dead pheonix
Forum Discussion
";969496" wrote:
A zaul team will pwn this setup. It's a direct counter. Also throw in DT and your little rebs are toast."Ig88isboss;969505" wrote:
Again, you are ignoring the double taunt and tenacity/self cleanse. The Phoenix team is made to take on debuffs.";969496" wrote:
A zaul team will pwn this setup. It's a direct counter. Also throw in DT and your little rebs are toast.
Yes, those are the best debuffs against them, but debuffs in general are not effective against them. Hence, you are overestimating how good your counter will be."Woodroward;969509" wrote:
"Ig88isboss;969505" wrote:
Again, you are ignoring the double taunt and tenacity/self cleanse. The Phoenix team is made to take on debuffs.";969496" wrote:
A zaul team will pwn this setup. It's a direct counter. Also throw in DT and your little rebs are toast.
Yes, those are the best debuffs against them, but debuffs in general are not effective against them. Hence, you are overestimating how good your counter will be.
You will see."Ig88isboss;969513" wrote:
"Woodroward;969509" wrote:
"Ig88isboss;969505" wrote:
Again, you are ignoring the double taunt and tenacity/self cleanse. The Phoenix team is made to take on debuffs.";969496" wrote:
A zaul team will pwn this setup. It's a direct counter. Also throw in DT and your little rebs are toast.
Yes, those are the best debuffs against them, but debuffs in general are not effective against them. Hence, you are overestimating how good your counter will be.
You will see.
Yes you will. LOL"Woodroward;969515" wrote:
"Ig88isboss;969513" wrote:
"Woodroward;969509" wrote:
"Ig88isboss;969505" wrote:
Again, you are ignoring the double taunt and tenacity/self cleanse. The Phoenix team is made to take on debuffs.";969496" wrote:
A zaul team will pwn this setup. It's a direct counter. Also throw in DT and your little rebs are toast.
Yes, those are the best debuffs against them, but debuffs in general are not effective against them. Hence, you are overestimating how good your counter will be.
You will see.
Yes you will. LOL
It'll make a good 50-100 squad. I'll give it that."Ig88isboss;969517" wrote:
"Woodroward;969515" wrote:
"Ig88isboss;969513" wrote:
"Woodroward;969509" wrote:
"Ig88isboss;969505" wrote:
Again, you are ignoring the double taunt and tenacity/self cleanse. The Phoenix team is made to take on debuffs.";969496" wrote:
A zaul team will pwn this setup. It's a direct counter. Also throw in DT and your little rebs are toast.
Yes, those are the best debuffs against them, but debuffs in general are not effective against them. Hence, you are overestimating how good your counter will be.
You will see.
Yes you will. LOL
It'll make a good 50-100 squad. I'll give it that.
Oh, it will be the new top team. Just like Sith are after their rework. Just like R1 was after they came out. Just like Wiggs was when they came out. Just like everybody has Boba and Kylo now that they got reworked.
You might be right that they won't be that great, but the combination of abilities I am looking at says: "Only counter to this team is uber high dps"."Woodroward;969504" wrote:
"Kyno;969484" wrote:
"Woodroward;969461" wrote:
"Kyno;969454" wrote:
"Woodroward;969443" wrote:
"Kyno;969420" wrote:
"Woodroward;969327" wrote:
"Ig88isboss;955427" wrote:
Zaul= AOE daze, which means no countering and no tm gains from using special abilities. And no assisting (which phoneix has a lot of)
DT= has AOE healing immunity as well as terminate to use against backup plan
Palpy= shock and stun.
These 3 can completely shut down a phoenix squad.
It sounds good but unlikely. All the tenacity that team spreads around makes it unlikely to even land these debuffs. If you do, the person landing them will be countered, & the phoenix member will regenerate 25% max health, turn meter. and get 15% protection up. (You're uber unlikely to land all of them, none of them prevent the protection up, so SOME of these effects will trigger no matter what) Meanwhile, the debuff will be cleansed practically right away, and the character will continue to regenerate protection and health at the beginning of their turns.
Dual taunters, evasion, tenacity up the yin-yang. The answer to the phoenix squad will not be found in AoE debuffs, they aren't potent enough...
If there's an answer to be found, it is in straight damage. You have to DPS them down quick, not rely on gimmicks.
All that being said, Maul will still be helpful. So will the Emperor. Just nowhere near as effective as you have painted them out to be against this squad.
Random Side note: Sabine is by far the Phoenix I would leave out due to the Zaul meta. Crit unique can go away.
Tenacity up is only on 2 toons at a time. Daze prevents counter on the rest of the team. Without at least 1 outside toon to cleanse, they will have trouble against the current meta.
Shock and healing immunity are also common on zaul teams which would prevent the healing and protection recovery.
You don't need them to all hit, you need them to hit 1 or 2 max and then focus and remove that toon, and weaken the whole team by removing that unique.
Meh. Dual taunts, one with tenacity, one with dodge.
Sure they can hit daze on a few other people besides Kanaan maybe. He has tenacity while taunting, so it's irrelevant. While everyone else is dazed, your whole team will have to attack Kanaan, who will be counter attacking and gaining tm, and healing, and regenerating proteciton.
If his taunt is down and they are using Chopper's taunt, he has evasion, and you won't be hitting him with much of anything let alone landing debuffs,
Can a Zaul comp beat the Phoenix comp? Sure, but that isn't what the post is alleging. It is alleging that it will PWN the phoenix team, and I don't think so. it can win, but it won't be anywhere near as one sided as the OP suggests.
Most zaul teams are 4/5 aoe, so I'm not sure the taunts will help that much, and boba and b2 can fit into a zaul team without hurting it.
The reduction of Phoenix memebers in a team hurts the team and you will near to bring in at least one cleanser, maybe 2. Both phoenix taunts are active moves, so daze and possibly stun will be down before taunts can activate. Add in a nihilus and now they are waiting 1 more turn before taunt/tenacity is even in play.
It's really hard to tell how this will play out but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a little more one sided then you think. I am hopeful but just a little sceptical, they look good on paper, but we have seen similar toons/teams flop when in practice.
Meh. Chopper is really fast (152 base), He'll taunt before most, if not all of the opposing team. He's faster than Maul (100) and the Emperor (122) by a long shot. With his 30% tenacity, and 30% evasion, there's a high chance any and all debuffs will miss him, Kanaan can cleanse himself.
I am almost certain that both you and the OP are underestimating the strength of this dual taunt setup. I am actually excited enough to think about chasing this meta simply because of how they have an answer to practically everything the enemy can throw at them, and that includes, daze, stun, and healing immunity.
The dual taunt setup basically makes it so that 1 or 2 toons debuffed will NOT be good enough, you will have to land it on ALL of them to really be effective.
I'm not saying it's not possible, but they don't have a cleanser or anyone to debuff the other side, those are keys to the current zaul solution. Adding toons that do this, reduce the effectiveness of the team and I'm not sure that balance will be found. I hope it does and I have stated in an earlier post that I feel the best phoenix team will be a 3 phoenix 2 add-ons mix, but like I said this is all on paper and we have seen flops before.
B2 on a zaul team, doesn't really reduce the effectiveness of a zaul team and it basically crushes a dual taunt system in one move, he also reacts well to evasion.
On the speed point, you are right chopper is fast but kanan is pretty slow, so no double taunt before your suffering from debuffs, and possible CD reduction. Maul lead with SA, means it's easier for them to make a team fast, not that you can't out speed them with 1 or maybe 2 toons but it's harder, and I'm not sure the phoenix team can sit on its heals and still come back into the fight.
I don't run zaul, and I am hoping phoenix can bring some diversity back, I don't think zaul is OP or anything special, just the new meta. I'm just not that certain they will be able to really push it that far. Fingers crossed.
Actually the fact that Kanaan is slow to Chopper's fast is excellent. Why do you want both taunts up at once? The benefit of dual taunts is that you can rotate them. Sure some debuffs will land but probably not on chopper due to the evasion. Doesn't matter if they land on anyone besides Chopper or Kanaan really. Having your long taunter self cleanse eliminates the need for an outside cleanser in this set up (thanks to counter, and health/protection regen). Heck, the Phoenix squad even gets BONUSES for being debuffed. Anyone who thinks A Zaul lead will pwn this team will be sorely mistaken. Win? Yes. Pwn? Doubtful.
Phoenix squad will most likely be best viable with 5 of 6 phoenix members, leaving out Sabine.
I just see zaul having many built in counters to their synergy.
They don't have the current used counters as accessible, tenacity up limited to 2 toons, cleanse to 1. And no buff immunity.
Both cleanse and tenacity up on the current answer to zaul are whole team solutions, maybe phoenix won't need it to be that way.
The speed thing also gets me. You would need 120 speed mods to counter the 100 speed with +36%tm up from zaul and SA. This would make chopper equal to zaul. He will be hard pressed to it speed ep, or sid.
The only reason I bring up kanan being slow is if he doesn't go before nihilus then there is a chance good chance he won't taunt, cleanse or tenacity up..."Kyno;969639" wrote:
"Woodroward;969504" wrote:
"Kyno;969484" wrote:
"Woodroward;969461" wrote:
"Kyno;969454" wrote:
"Woodroward;969443" wrote:
"Kyno;969420" wrote:
"Woodroward;969327" wrote:
"Ig88isboss;955427" wrote:
Zaul= AOE daze, which means no countering and no tm gains from using special abilities. And no assisting (which phoneix has a lot of)
DT= has AOE healing immunity as well as terminate to use against backup plan
Palpy= shock and stun.
These 3 can completely shut down a phoenix squad.
It sounds good but unlikely. All the tenacity that team spreads around makes it unlikely to even land these debuffs. If you do, the person landing them will be countered, & the phoenix member will regenerate 25% max health, turn meter. and get 15% protection up. (You're uber unlikely to land all of them, none of them prevent the protection up, so SOME of these effects will trigger no matter what) Meanwhile, the debuff will be cleansed practically right away, and the character will continue to regenerate protection and health at the beginning of their turns.
Dual taunters, evasion, tenacity up the yin-yang. The answer to the phoenix squad will not be found in AoE debuffs, they aren't potent enough...
If there's an answer to be found, it is in straight damage. You have to DPS them down quick, not rely on gimmicks.
All that being said, Maul will still be helpful. So will the Emperor. Just nowhere near as effective as you have painted them out to be against this squad.
Random Side note: Sabine is by far the Phoenix I would leave out due to the Zaul meta. Crit unique can go away.
Tenacity up is only on 2 toons at a time. Daze prevents counter on the rest of the team. Without at least 1 outside toon to cleanse, they will have trouble against the current meta.
Shock and healing immunity are also common on zaul teams which would prevent the healing and protection recovery.
You don't need them to all hit, you need them to hit 1 or 2 max and then focus and remove that toon, and weaken the whole team by removing that unique.
Meh. Dual taunts, one with tenacity, one with dodge.
Sure they can hit daze on a few other people besides Kanaan maybe. He has tenacity while taunting, so it's irrelevant. While everyone else is dazed, your whole team will have to attack Kanaan, who will be counter attacking and gaining tm, and healing, and regenerating proteciton.
If his taunt is down and they are using Chopper's taunt, he has evasion, and you won't be hitting him with much of anything let alone landing debuffs,
Can a Zaul comp beat the Phoenix comp? Sure, but that isn't what the post is alleging. It is alleging that it will PWN the phoenix team, and I don't think so. it can win, but it won't be anywhere near as one sided as the OP suggests.
Most zaul teams are 4/5 aoe, so I'm not sure the taunts will help that much, and boba and b2 can fit into a zaul team without hurting it.
The reduction of Phoenix memebers in a team hurts the team and you will near to bring in at least one cleanser, maybe 2. Both phoenix taunts are active moves, so daze and possibly stun will be down before taunts can activate. Add in a nihilus and now they are waiting 1 more turn before taunt/tenacity is even in play.
It's really hard to tell how this will play out but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a little more one sided then you think. I am hopeful but just a little sceptical, they look good on paper, but we have seen similar toons/teams flop when in practice.
Meh. Chopper is really fast (152 base), He'll taunt before most, if not all of the opposing team. He's faster than Maul (100) and the Emperor (122) by a long shot. With his 30% tenacity, and 30% evasion, there's a high chance any and all debuffs will miss him, Kanaan can cleanse himself.
I am almost certain that both you and the OP are underestimating the strength of this dual taunt setup. I am actually excited enough to think about chasing this meta simply because of how they have an answer to practically everything the enemy can throw at them, and that includes, daze, stun, and healing immunity.
The dual taunt setup basically makes it so that 1 or 2 toons debuffed will NOT be good enough, you will have to land it on ALL of them to really be effective.
I'm not saying it's not possible, but they don't have a cleanser or anyone to debuff the other side, those are keys to the current zaul solution. Adding toons that do this, reduce the effectiveness of the team and I'm not sure that balance will be found. I hope it does and I have stated in an earlier post that I feel the best phoenix team will be a 3 phoenix 2 add-ons mix, but like I said this is all on paper and we have seen flops before.
B2 on a zaul team, doesn't really reduce the effectiveness of a zaul team and it basically crushes a dual taunt system in one move, he also reacts well to evasion.
On the speed point, you are right chopper is fast but kanan is pretty slow, so no double taunt before your suffering from debuffs, and possible CD reduction. Maul lead with SA, means it's easier for them to make a team fast, not that you can't out speed them with 1 or maybe 2 toons but it's harder, and I'm not sure the phoenix team can sit on its heals and still come back into the fight.
I don't run zaul, and I am hoping phoenix can bring some diversity back, I don't think zaul is OP or anything special, just the new meta. I'm just not that certain they will be able to really push it that far. Fingers crossed.
Actually the fact that Kanaan is slow to Chopper's fast is excellent. Why do you want both taunts up at once? The benefit of dual taunts is that you can rotate them. Sure some debuffs will land but probably not on chopper due to the evasion. Doesn't matter if they land on anyone besides Chopper or Kanaan really. Having your long taunter self cleanse eliminates the need for an outside cleanser in this set up (thanks to counter, and health/protection regen). Heck, the Phoenix squad even gets BONUSES for being debuffed. Anyone who thinks A Zaul lead will pwn this team will be sorely mistaken. Win? Yes. Pwn? Doubtful.
Phoenix squad will most likely be best viable with 5 of 6 phoenix members, leaving out Sabine.
I just see zaul having many built in counters to their synergy.
They don't have the current used counters as accessible, tenacity up limited to 2 toons, cleanse to 1. And no buff immunity.
Both cleanse and tenacity up on the current answer to zaul are whole team solutions, maybe phoenix won't need it to be that way.
The speed thing also gets me. You would need 120 speed mods to counter the 100 speed with +36%tm up from zaul and SA. This would make chopper equal to zaul. He will be hard pressed to it speed ep, or sid.
The only reason I bring up kanan being slow is if he doesn't go before nihilus then there is a chance good chance he won't taunt, cleanse or tenacity up...
Chopper is a 152. Sith Assasin is a 151. Which means you have that backwards. People will be hard pressed to have Sith Assassin go before Chopper, if anything.
Personally I think it would be best for Kanaan to taunt on his second turn. Chopper's taunting first turn. if Kanaan waits until turn 2, then the taunt doesn't overlap. Nihilus actually sets Kanaan up better by stealing cooldowns turn 1. It's possible there may be a short lag in taunts, but a short lag early on isn't usually enough in my experience, A good long lag early, or a short one later is what's needed.
The abilities overlap beautifully on the Phoenix Squad. You and IG-88 is boss are analyzing abilities individually instead of as a group."Woodroward;969659" wrote:
"Kyno;969639" wrote:
"Woodroward;969504" wrote:
"Kyno;969484" wrote:
"Woodroward;969461" wrote:
"Kyno;969454" wrote:
"Woodroward;969443" wrote:
"Kyno;969420" wrote:
"Woodroward;969327" wrote:
"Ig88isboss;955427" wrote:
Zaul= AOE daze, which means no countering and no tm gains from using special abilities. And no assisting (which phoneix has a lot of)
DT= has AOE healing immunity as well as terminate to use against backup plan
Palpy= shock and stun.
These 3 can completely shut down a phoenix squad.
It sounds good but unlikely. All the tenacity that team spreads around makes it unlikely to even land these debuffs. If you do, the person landing them will be countered, & the phoenix member will regenerate 25% max health, turn meter. and get 15% protection up. (You're uber unlikely to land all of them, none of them prevent the protection up, so SOME of these effects will trigger no matter what) Meanwhile, the debuff will be cleansed practically right away, and the character will continue to regenerate protection and health at the beginning of their turns.
Dual taunters, evasion, tenacity up the yin-yang. The answer to the phoenix squad will not be found in AoE debuffs, they aren't potent enough...
If there's an answer to be found, it is in straight damage. You have to DPS them down quick, not rely on gimmicks.
All that being said, Maul will still be helpful. So will the Emperor. Just nowhere near as effective as you have painted them out to be against this squad.
Random Side note: Sabine is by far the Phoenix I would leave out due to the Zaul meta. Crit unique can go away.
Tenacity up is only on 2 toons at a time. Daze prevents counter on the rest of the team. Without at least 1 outside toon to cleanse, they will have trouble against the current meta.
Shock and healing immunity are also common on zaul teams which would prevent the healing and protection recovery.
You don't need them to all hit, you need them to hit 1 or 2 max and then focus and remove that toon, and weaken the whole team by removing that unique.
Meh. Dual taunts, one with tenacity, one with dodge.
Sure they can hit daze on a few other people besides Kanaan maybe. He has tenacity while taunting, so it's irrelevant. While everyone else is dazed, your whole team will have to attack Kanaan, who will be counter attacking and gaining tm, and healing, and regenerating proteciton.
If his taunt is down and they are using Chopper's taunt, he has evasion, and you won't be hitting him with much of anything let alone landing debuffs,
Can a Zaul comp beat the Phoenix comp? Sure, but that isn't what the post is alleging. It is alleging that it will PWN the phoenix team, and I don't think so. it can win, but it won't be anywhere near as one sided as the OP suggests.
Most zaul teams are 4/5 aoe, so I'm not sure the taunts will help that much, and boba and b2 can fit into a zaul team without hurting it.
The reduction of Phoenix memebers in a team hurts the team and you will near to bring in at least one cleanser, maybe 2. Both phoenix taunts are active moves, so daze and possibly stun will be down before taunts can activate. Add in a nihilus and now they are waiting 1 more turn before taunt/tenacity is even in play.
It's really hard to tell how this will play out but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a little more one sided then you think. I am hopeful but just a little sceptical, they look good on paper, but we have seen similar toons/teams flop when in practice.
Meh. Chopper is really fast (152 base), He'll taunt before most, if not all of the opposing team. He's faster than Maul (100) and the Emperor (122) by a long shot. With his 30% tenacity, and 30% evasion, there's a high chance any and all debuffs will miss him, Kanaan can cleanse himself.
I am almost certain that both you and the OP are underestimating the strength of this dual taunt setup. I am actually excited enough to think about chasing this meta simply because of how they have an answer to practically everything the enemy can throw at them, and that includes, daze, stun, and healing immunity.
The dual taunt setup basically makes it so that 1 or 2 toons debuffed will NOT be good enough, you will have to land it on ALL of them to really be effective.
I'm not saying it's not possible, but they don't have a cleanser or anyone to debuff the other side, those are keys to the current zaul solution. Adding toons that do this, reduce the effectiveness of the team and I'm not sure that balance will be found. I hope it does and I have stated in an earlier post that I feel the best phoenix team will be a 3 phoenix 2 add-ons mix, but like I said this is all on paper and we have seen flops before.
B2 on a zaul team, doesn't really reduce the effectiveness of a zaul team and it basically crushes a dual taunt system in one move, he also reacts well to evasion.
On the speed point, you are right chopper is fast but kanan is pretty slow, so no double taunt before your suffering from debuffs, and possible CD reduction. Maul lead with SA, means it's easier for them to make a team fast, not that you can't out speed them with 1 or maybe 2 toons but it's harder, and I'm not sure the phoenix team can sit on its heals and still come back into the fight.
I don't run zaul, and I am hoping phoenix can bring some diversity back, I don't think zaul is OP or anything special, just the new meta. I'm just not that certain they will be able to really push it that far. Fingers crossed.
Actually the fact that Kanaan is slow to Chopper's fast is excellent. Why do you want both taunts up at once? The benefit of dual taunts is that you can rotate them. Sure some debuffs will land but probably not on chopper due to the evasion. Doesn't matter if they land on anyone besides Chopper or Kanaan really. Having your long taunter self cleanse eliminates the need for an outside cleanser in this set up (thanks to counter, and health/protection regen). Heck, the Phoenix squad even gets BONUSES for being debuffed. Anyone who thinks A Zaul lead will pwn this team will be sorely mistaken. Win? Yes. Pwn? Doubtful.
Phoenix squad will most likely be best viable with 5 of 6 phoenix members, leaving out Sabine.
I just see zaul having many built in counters to their synergy.
They don't have the current used counters as accessible, tenacity up limited to 2 toons, cleanse to 1. And no buff immunity.
Both cleanse and tenacity up on the current answer to zaul are whole team solutions, maybe phoenix won't need it to be that way.
The speed thing also gets me. You would need 120 speed mods to counter the 100 speed with +36%tm up from zaul and SA. This would make chopper equal to zaul. He will be hard pressed to it speed ep, or sid.
The only reason I bring up kanan being slow is if he doesn't go before nihilus then there is a chance good chance he won't taunt, cleanse or tenacity up...
Chopper is a 152. Sith Assasin is a 151. Which means you have that backwards. People will be hard pressed to have Sith Assassin go before Chopper, if anything.
Personally I think it would be best for Kanaan to taunt on his second turn. Chopper's taunting first turn. if Kanaan waits until turn 2, then the taunt doesn't overlap. Nihilus actually sets Kanaan up better by stealing cooldowns turn 1. It's possible there may be a short lag in taunts, but a short lag early on isn't usually enough in my experience, A good long lag early, or a short one later is what's needed.
The abilities overlap beautifully on the Phoenix Squad. You and IG-88 is boss are analyzing abilities individually instead of as a group.
SA gets a 20% tm boost from zaul lead...all mods being equal, SA wins.
The importance of kanan also lies in the tenacity up for a target toon, he will cleanse himself, but leave everyone else open to many buffs.
Many of a zaul teams built in abilities break up or cancel out a lot of the uniques provided by the leader ability.
Many of the built in abilities in a zaul team counter the phoenix synergy, and phoenix team don't really bring in any of the current solutions to a zaul team, just on paper I know but that's all we have right now. I am hopeful we will see something, but not too much.- As with almost every faction, it is unusual to run a 5 character similar tag team and succeed in arena. I'm sure if you went 4 pheonix and sub in gk somewhere they will be great, or 3 pheonix and chaze. With the cost to gear 5 up immediately anyways, we will see players liking now and more at a hybrid anyways.
