Easy counter to phoneix squad

"Kyno;969678" wrote:
SA gets a 20% tm boost from zaul lead...all mods being equal, SA wins.

The importance of kanan also lies in the tenacity up for a target toon, he will cleanse himself, but leave everyone else open to many buffs.

Many of a zaul teams built in abilities break up or cancel out a lot of the uniques provided by the leader ability.

Many of the built in abilities in a zaul team counter the phoenix synergy, and phoenix team don't really bring in any of the current solutions to a zaul team, just on paper I know but that's all we have right now. I am hopeful we will see something, but not too much.

No, there is no automatic tm boost from zaul lead. He gives 20% tm on being crit or evading. It's a conditional bonus that depends upon that particular sith being attacked, AND another condition being met. All mods being equal, Chopper always wins.

Daze on 4/5 toons is irrelevant if you are forced to attack one that isn't dazed and will counter you.
Same with healing immunity. Put it on everyone. Does nothing if you can't attack them. Many of the debuffs in a Zaul team are great at countering Phoenix uniques INDIVIDUALLY, but not their synergy as a group.

"Woodroward;969699" wrote:

"Kyno;969678" wrote:
SA gets a 20% tm boost from zaul lead...all mods being equal, SA wins.

The importance of kanan also lies in the tenacity up for a target toon, he will cleanse himself, but leave everyone else open to many buffs.

Many of a zaul teams built in abilities break up or cancel out a lot of the uniques provided by the leader ability.

Many of the built in abilities in a zaul team counter the phoenix synergy, and phoenix team don't really bring in any of the current solutions to a zaul team, just on paper I know but that's all we have right now. I am hopeful we will see something, but not too much.

No, there is no automatic tm boost from zaul lead. He gives 20% tm on being crit or evading. It's a conditional bonus that depends upon that particular sith being attacked, AND another condition being met. All mods being equal, Chopper always wins.

Daze on 4/5 toons is irrelevant if you are forced to attack one that isn't dazed and will counter you.
Same with healing immunity. Put it on everyone. Does nothing if you can't attack them. Many of the debuffs in a Zaul team are great at countering Phoenix uniques INDIVIDUALLY, but not their synergy as a group.

Reread maul's leadership: "Sith gain 20% turn meter and stealth for 1 turn at the start of each encounter and when they evade or are critically hit."

"RJ__Brando;969686" wrote:
As with almost every faction, it is unusual to run a 5 character similar tag team and succeed in arena. I'm sure if you went 4 pheonix and sub in gk somewhere they will be great, or 3 pheonix and chaze. With the cost to gear 5 up immediately anyways, we will see players liking now and more at a hybrid anyways.

"RJ__Brando;969686" wrote:
As with almost every faction, it is unusual to run a 5 character similar tag team and succeed in arena. I'm sure if you went 4 pheonix and sub in gk somewhere they will be great, or 3 pheonix and chaze. With the cost to gear 5 up immediately anyways, we will see players liking now and more at a hybrid anyways.

At that point it's pointless running a pheonix squad because they just aren't good enough with only 3 and the leader ability becomes kinda underwhelming.

"Ig88isboss;969726" wrote:

"RJ__Brando;969686" wrote:
As with almost every faction, it is unusual to run a 5 character similar tag team and succeed in arena. I'm sure if you went 4 pheonix and sub in gk somewhere they will be great, or 3 pheonix and chaze. With the cost to gear 5 up immediately anyways, we will see players liking now and more at a hybrid anyways.

"RJ__Brando;969686" wrote:
As with almost every faction, it is unusual to run a 5 character similar tag team and succeed in arena. I'm sure if you went 4 pheonix and sub in gk somewhere they will be great, or 3 pheonix and chaze. With the cost to gear 5 up immediately anyways, we will see players liking now and more at a hybrid anyways.

At that point it's pointless running a pheonix squad because they just aren't good enough with only 3 and the leader ability becomes kinda underwhelming.

I think you may be underestimating these squads. Pick the 2-3 best unique for your server and anchor with known successful staples in arena.

"Woodroward;969699" wrote:

"Kyno;969678" wrote:
SA gets a 20% tm boost from zaul lead...all mods being equal, SA wins.

The importance of kanan also lies in the tenacity up for a target toon, he will cleanse himself, but leave everyone else open to many buffs.

Many of a zaul teams built in abilities break up or cancel out a lot of the uniques provided by the leader ability.

Many of the built in abilities in a zaul team counter the phoenix synergy, and phoenix team don't really bring in any of the current solutions to a zaul team, just on paper I know but that's all we have right now. I am hopeful we will see something, but not too much.

No, there is no automatic tm boost from zaul lead. He gives 20% tm on being crit or evading. It's a conditional bonus that depends upon that particular sith being attacked, AND another condition being met. All mods being equal, Chopper always wins.

Daze on 4/5 toons is irrelevant if you are forced to attack one that isn't dazed and will counter you.
Same with healing immunity. Put it on everyone. Does nothing if you can't attack them. Many of the debuffs in a Zaul team are great at countering Phoenix uniques INDIVIDUALLY, but not their synergy as a group.

As stated above, you are incorrect. Sith get all bonuses at the start of a battle also, just an fyi for you.

Most sith teams have 4/5 aoe attacks, and with daze on them you will not get a group counter, which is the danger of an aoe against a counter team.

Nihilus removes buffs on his basic, or the simple sub of b2 and no more taunt. Remove 1 toon weaken the whole team.

There is no team cleanser so most debuffs will run their course, this is a dangerous move for a non tanky team.

I am looking at the team as a whole, you should look at how effective debuffs can be to each of the uniques that they will have, and unlike any other team synergy, kill the toon weaken the team as a whole, not just remove the threat.

The current counters involve, whole team cleansing, tenacity up, and tm gain.

If you involve gk, then also crit immunity.

Good additions buff immunity.

The only ones brought to the fight by this full team is single cleanse and 2 tenacity up. Tm gain only on specials.

Specials being tied up by nihilus negates a few of these right off the bat.

"RJ__Brando;969782" wrote:

"Ig88isboss;969726" wrote:

"RJ__Brando;969686" wrote:
As with almost every faction, it is unusual to run a 5 character similar tag team and succeed in arena. I'm sure if you went 4 pheonix and sub in gk somewhere they will be great, or 3 pheonix and chaze. With the cost to gear 5 up immediately anyways, we will see players liking now and more at a hybrid anyways.

"RJ__Brando;969686" wrote:
As with almost every faction, it is unusual to run a 5 character similar tag team and succeed in arena. I'm sure if you went 4 pheonix and sub in gk somewhere they will be great, or 3 pheonix and chaze. With the cost to gear 5 up immediately anyways, we will see players liking now and more at a hybrid anyways.

At that point it's pointless running a pheonix squad because they just aren't good enough with only 3 and the leader ability becomes kinda underwhelming.

I think you may be underestimating these squads. Pick the 2-3 best unique for your server and anchor with known successful staples in arena.

Personally I think you are underestimating the uniques if you think that you'll be better with only 2-3 characters.

"Kyno;969977" wrote:

"Woodroward;969699" wrote:

"Kyno;969678" wrote:
SA gets a 20% tm boost from zaul lead...all mods being equal, SA wins.

The importance of kanan also lies in the tenacity up for a target toon, he will cleanse himself, but leave everyone else open to many buffs.

Many of a zaul teams built in abilities break up or cancel out a lot of the uniques provided by the leader ability.

Many of the built in abilities in a zaul team counter the phoenix synergy, and phoenix team don't really bring in any of the current solutions to a zaul team, just on paper I know but that's all we have right now. I am hopeful we will see something, but not too much.

No, there is no automatic tm boost from zaul lead. He gives 20% tm on being crit or evading. It's a conditional bonus that depends upon that particular sith being attacked, AND another condition being met. All mods being equal, Chopper always wins.

Daze on 4/5 toons is irrelevant if you are forced to attack one that isn't dazed and will counter you.
Same with healing immunity. Put it on everyone. Does nothing if you can't attack them. Many of the debuffs in a Zaul team are great at countering Phoenix uniques INDIVIDUALLY, but not their synergy as a group.

As stated above, you are incorrect. Sith get all bonuses at the start of a battle also, just an fyi for you.

Most sith teams have 4/5 aoe attacks, and with daze on them you will not get a group counter, which is the danger of an aoe against a counter team.

Nihilus removes buffs on his basic, or the simple sub of b2 and no more taunt. Remove 1 toon weaken the whole team.

There is no team cleanser so most debuffs will run their course, this is a dangerous move for a non tanky team.

I am looking at the team as a whole, you should look at how effective debuffs can be to each of the uniques that they will have, and unlike any other team synergy, kill the toon weaken the team as a whole, not just remove the threat.

The current counters involve, whole team cleansing, tenacity up, and tm gain.

If you involve gk, then also crit immunity.

Good additions buff immunity.

The only ones brought to the fight by this full team is single cleanse and 2 tenacity up. Tm gain only on specials.

Specials being tied up by nihilus negates a few of these right off the bat.

Yeah I actually acknowledged that already but it became a post waiting to be approved.

If Sith Assasin goes before Chopper then it won't be a tough match for the Sith. If he doesn't The Maul team will not have an easy victory.

You are indeed not considering the group synergies. In a team that has health and protection regeneration, not dealing with debuffs is A-OK, so a group cleanse is unneeded. Counter attack isn't the only thing dangerous about the phoenix team. The health and protection regeneration actually will make them quite tanky, which is exactly what you yourself have just said is needed to deal with AoE with no cleanser.

Thank you for proving my point for me. Without Sith Assassin (who was not included in this scenario to begin with), it will be a close call and a tough match. Thank you for playing.

The TM gain on specials is alright. The Counter attack makes you want to shy away from them. The real power of this group is the dual taunts and the Health/protection regen.

AoE is inconsistent enough damage that even stopping those for a short period of time is irrelevant. The regeneration will overpower the damage from the AoE. Even if they get dazed, AoE doesn't mean anything to this group.

"Woodroward;970047" wrote:

"Kyno;969977" wrote:

"Woodroward;969699" wrote:

"Kyno;969678" wrote:
SA gets a 20% tm boost from zaul lead...all mods being equal, SA wins.

The importance of kanan also lies in the tenacity up for a target toon, he will cleanse himself, but leave everyone else open to many buffs.

Many of a zaul teams built in abilities break up or cancel out a lot of the uniques provided by the leader ability.

Many of the built in abilities in a zaul team counter the phoenix synergy, and phoenix team don't really bring in any of the current solutions to a zaul team, just on paper I know but that's all we have right now. I am hopeful we will see something, but not too much.

No, there is no automatic tm boost from zaul lead. He gives 20% tm on being crit or evading. It's a conditional bonus that depends upon that particular sith being attacked, AND another condition being met. All mods being equal, Chopper always wins.

Daze on 4/5 toons is irrelevant if you are forced to attack one that isn't dazed and will counter you.
Same with healing immunity. Put it on everyone. Does nothing if you can't attack them. Many of the debuffs in a Zaul team are great at countering Phoenix uniques INDIVIDUALLY, but not their synergy as a group.

As stated above, you are incorrect. Sith get all bonuses at the start of a battle also, just an fyi for you.

Most sith teams have 4/5 aoe attacks, and with daze on them you will not get a group counter, which is the danger of an aoe against a counter team.

Nihilus removes buffs on his basic, or the simple sub of b2 and no more taunt. Remove 1 toon weaken the whole team.

There is no team cleanser so most debuffs will run their course, this is a dangerous move for a non tanky team.

I am looking at the team as a whole, you should look at how effective debuffs can be to each of the uniques that they will have, and unlike any other team synergy, kill the toon weaken the team as a whole, not just remove the threat.

The current counters involve, whole team cleansing, tenacity up, and tm gain.

If you involve gk, then also crit immunity.

Good additions buff immunity.

The only ones brought to the fight by this full team is single cleanse and 2 tenacity up. Tm gain only on specials.

Specials being tied up by nihilus negates a few of these right off the bat.

Yeah I actually acknowledged that already but it became a post waiting to be approved.

If Sith Assasin goes before Chopper then it won't be a tough match for the Sith. If he doesn't The Maul team will not have an easy victory.

You are indeed not considering the group synergies. In a team that has health and protection regeneration, not dealing with debuffs is A-OK, so a group cleanse is unneeded. Counter attack isn't the only thing dangerous about the phoenix team. The health and protection regeneration actually will make them quite tanky, which is exactly what you yourself have just said is needed to deal with AoE with no cleanser.

Thank you for proving my point for me. Without Sith Assassin (who was not included in this scenario to begin with), it will be a close call and a tough match. Thank you for playing.

The TM gain on specials is alright. The Counter attack makes you want to shy away from them. The real power of this group is the dual taunts and the Health/protection regen.

AoE is inconsistent enough damage that even stopping those for a short period of time is irrelevant. The regeneration will overpower the damage from the AoE. Even if they get dazed, AoE doesn't mean anything to this group.

Well who is gonna bother gearing and starring up a team that is a 'close match' with the current meta.. Not many I would assume. Really surprising cg would release a team that can't compete will with the current meta, gonna lose them that precious $$$

As many have mentioned Zaul is the perfect counter to Phoenix squad. Zaul, SA, Palp, Nihilus, GK. SA ensures all Sith go first, Dazing and neutralizing most Phoenix passives. Even if that's cleansed off, GK granting Sith Foresight makes Phoenix's counter chance a liability as this will only feed Stealth/TM/Advantage to Sith. Meanwhile DN is a ticking bomb, dispeller, and provides AB utility. Palp's shock shuts down its target and allows them to be terminated one by one. Zaul should be used to hit low health units with Backup Plan as he'll just get another turn and -1 CD on his AoE Daze. Phoenix isn't a new meta, it's a punching bag for the current one.

"Ig88isboss;970056" wrote:

"Woodroward;970047" wrote:

"Kyno;969977" wrote:

"Woodroward;969699" wrote:

"Kyno;969678" wrote:
SA gets a 20% tm boost from zaul lead...all mods being equal, SA wins.

The importance of kanan also lies in the tenacity up for a target toon, he will cleanse himself, but leave everyone else open to many buffs.

Many of a zaul teams built in abilities break up or cancel out a lot of the uniques provided by the leader ability.

Many of the built in abilities in a zaul team counter the phoenix synergy, and phoenix team don't really bring in any of the current solutions to a zaul team, just on paper I know but that's all we have right now. I am hopeful we will see something, but not too much.

No, there is no automatic tm boost from zaul lead. He gives 20% tm on being crit or evading. It's a conditional bonus that depends upon that particular sith being attacked, AND another condition being met. All mods being equal, Chopper always wins.

Daze on 4/5 toons is irrelevant if you are forced to attack one that isn't dazed and will counter you.
Same with healing immunity. Put it on everyone. Does nothing if you can't attack them. Many of the debuffs in a Zaul team are great at countering Phoenix uniques INDIVIDUALLY, but not their synergy as a group.

As stated above, you are incorrect. Sith get all bonuses at the start of a battle also, just an fyi for you.

Most sith teams have 4/5 aoe attacks, and with daze on them you will not get a group counter, which is the danger of an aoe against a counter team.

Nihilus removes buffs on his basic, or the simple sub of b2 and no more taunt. Remove 1 toon weaken the whole team.

There is no team cleanser so most debuffs will run their course, this is a dangerous move for a non tanky team.

I am looking at the team as a whole, you should look at how effective debuffs can be to each of the uniques that they will have, and unlike any other team synergy, kill the toon weaken the team as a whole, not just remove the threat.

The current counters involve, whole team cleansing, tenacity up, and tm gain.

If you involve gk, then also crit immunity.

Good additions buff immunity.

The only ones brought to the fight by this full team is single cleanse and 2 tenacity up. Tm gain only on specials.

Specials being tied up by nihilus negates a few of these right off the bat.

Yeah I actually acknowledged that already but it became a post waiting to be approved.

If Sith Assasin goes before Chopper then it won't be a tough match for the Sith. If he doesn't The Maul team will not have an easy victory.

You are indeed not considering the group synergies. In a team that has health and protection regeneration, not dealing with debuffs is A-OK, so a group cleanse is unneeded. Counter attack isn't the only thing dangerous about the phoenix team. The health and protection regeneration actually will make them quite tanky, which is exactly what you yourself have just said is needed to deal with AoE with no cleanser.

Thank you for proving my point for me. Without Sith Assassin (who was not included in this scenario to begin with), it will be a close call and a tough match. Thank you for playing.

The TM gain on specials is alright. The Counter attack makes you want to shy away from them. The real power of this group is the dual taunts and the Health/protection regen.

AoE is inconsistent enough damage that even stopping those for a short period of time is irrelevant. The regeneration will overpower the damage from the AoE. Even if they get dazed, AoE doesn't mean anything to this group.

Well who is gonna bother gearing and starring up a team that is a 'close match' with the current meta.. Not many I would assume. Really surprising cg would release a team that can't compete will with the current meta, gonna lose them that precious $$$

It's not a close match for the Phoenix team attacking the Sith (that's easy mode), it's a close match for the Sith attacking the Phoenix team...

Kill order is everything. Defense generally sucks because you don't have it. Offense is effective because you do. Dual taunters removes your biggest offensive power from you.

Yes, lots of people would spend money on that.