Easy counter to phoneix squad

"Woodroward;971064" wrote:

"Cesium;971038" wrote:
I'm thinking of running Zader (l), Krooper, TFP, Shore once deathtrooper and krennic become farmable (or even if they don't, still not entirely sold on their survivability at low star level). I was wondering how well this team would do against the new rebels.

TFP should go first (assuming equal mods here) and put buff immunity on everyone's head + ability block maybe Chopper (not sure if that would be best). This should reduce the turn meter plus put a stop to the Protection Up. They could still counter attack, but they would just be hitting shore. I guess I would want to make my DT fast so he could go next and increase the cooldowns + take away those taunts if they are up. Oh, and he would apply AoE healing immunity with more turn meter removal.

Then Vader, Krennic and TFP would get their AoE's providing Dots (TM removal chance), Stagger (TM Removal), and more buff immunity (if the first AoE didn't stick, also adds TM removal)

Oh plus death trooper would double tap them all and daze + stun (if the first daze sticks) them.

The key here would be removing their turn meter so they wont get turns to attack/regen health and protection, and TFP's buff immunity would prevent protection up and taunts. TFP and Zader (and I guess krennic) would provide the dps needed to burn them down before they get a couple of turns (or even one).

I guess if I lack the dps to burn them down I could sub in Nihilus instead of shore, and risk the counter attacks...

What do you guys think? Will this work?
@Woodroward you seem to understand the Phoenix abilities best, is their a flaw in my plan that I am missing? Or something obvious that I am forgetting?

Sounds like way too many debuffs to me. Zader especially sounds super bad against the Phoenix to me.

25% health recovery every time they get a debuff, plus double protection regeneration (30%) every turn because of it as well. With Vader's auto refreshing dots, you're basically giving them over a full bar of health every turn or two. You do have healing immunity, but do you have 100% uptime on it? If not, then I'd steer clear of debuffs against this team, and Zader especially.

Jedi would be good against this team, they have a lot of buffs and buff wipes. That is where this team can suffer. Debuffing them just powers them up. I truly think the new rebel team would destroy any Sith team when on offense, and be very tough for any Sith team to beat on defense.

But they won't be recovering health at the beginning of the encounter, since I would be working on taking down their protection first. The buff immunity would make sure they wouldn't regen the protection while I was working on it, so them getting back health they already had doesn't worry me.

Once I got their protection off I should be able to just one shot them with culling blade (with all the debuffing going around) and nihilus if I include him. TFP can do enough damage that they won't be able to heal back.

Another thing is that while buff immunity won't prevent healing back protection on debuff, that particular unique only takes effect on the start of their turn. So if the Zader lead can control their turn meter along with krennic's stagger, then I think that the particular one I am killing will not get a turn and I should be able to avoid both the healing and protection healing. The Protection Up wont work through buff immunity, so they will not be able to heal back anything unless they take a turn (which they won't be able to)

As far as the counter attacks/stacking offence are concerned I'm not to worried about that since my team would be pretty tanky with or without shore.

I think this should work against Phoenix pretty well. Maybe not perfectly, since it requires some careful turn meter manipulation, but still pretty well. Another thing is, once I kill Kanan/chopper I can really burn through the rest of them with Krooper assist, Deathmark from deathtrooper (Which is amazing!), and the occasional culling blade/annihilate, not to mention TFP...

"Cesium;971165" wrote:

"Woodroward;971064" wrote:

"Cesium;971038" wrote:
I'm thinking of running Zader (l), Krooper, TFP, Shore once deathtrooper and krennic become farmable (or even if they don't, still not entirely sold on their survivability at low star level). I was wondering how well this team would do against the new rebels.

TFP should go first (assuming equal mods here) and put buff immunity on everyone's head + ability block maybe Chopper (not sure if that would be best). This should reduce the turn meter plus put a stop to the Protection Up. They could still counter attack, but they would just be hitting shore. I guess I would want to make my DT fast so he could go next and increase the cooldowns + take away those taunts if they are up. Oh, and he would apply AoE healing immunity with more turn meter removal.

Then Vader, Krennic and TFP would get their AoE's providing Dots (TM removal chance), Stagger (TM Removal), and more buff immunity (if the first AoE didn't stick, also adds TM removal)

Oh plus death trooper would double tap them all and daze + stun (if the first daze sticks) them.

The key here would be removing their turn meter so they wont get turns to attack/regen health and protection, and TFP's buff immunity would prevent protection up and taunts. TFP and Zader (and I guess krennic) would provide the dps needed to burn them down before they get a couple of turns (or even one).

I guess if I lack the dps to burn them down I could sub in Nihilus instead of shore, and risk the counter attacks...

What do you guys think? Will this work?
@Woodroward you seem to understand the Phoenix abilities best, is their a flaw in my plan that I am missing? Or something obvious that I am forgetting?

Sounds like way too many debuffs to me. Zader especially sounds super bad against the Phoenix to me.

25% health recovery every time they get a debuff, plus double protection regeneration (30%) every turn because of it as well. With Vader's auto refreshing dots, you're basically giving them over a full bar of health every turn or two. You do have healing immunity, but do you have 100% uptime on it? If not, then I'd steer clear of debuffs against this team, and Zader especially.

Jedi would be good against this team, they have a lot of buffs and buff wipes. That is where this team can suffer. Debuffing them just powers them up. I truly think the new rebel team would destroy any Sith team when on offense, and be very tough for any Sith team to beat on defense.

But they won't be recovering health at the beginning of the encounter, since I would be working on taking down their protection first. The buff immunity would make sure they wouldn't regen the protection while I was working on it, so them getting back health they already had doesn't worry me.

Once I got their protection off I should be able to just one shot them with culling blade (with all the debuffing going around) and nihilus if I include him. TFP can do enough damage that they won't be able to heal back.

Another thing is that while buff immunity won't prevent healing back protection on debuff, that particular unique only takes effect on the start of their turn. So if the Zader lead can control their turn meter along with krennic's stagger, then I think that the particular one I am killing will not get a turn and I should be able to avoid both the healing and protection healing. The Protection Up wont work through buff immunity, so they will not be able to heal back anything unless they take a turn (which they won't be able to)

As far as the counter attacks/stacking offence are concerned I'm not to worried about that since my team would be pretty tanky with or without shore.

I think this should work against Phoenix pretty well. Maybe not perfectly, since it requires some careful turn meter manipulation, but still pretty well. Another thing is, once I kill Kanan/chopper I can really burn through the rest of them with Krooper assist, Deathmark from deathtrooper (Which is amazing!), and the occasional culling blade/annihilate, not to mention TFP...

Actually the 25% max health heal from a debuff happens when they get the debuff, not at the start of their turn. Their is ALSO bonus protection regeneration on their turn when they are debuffed.

Buff immunity could prevent bonus protection, but then it also insta-heals them and increases their protection regeneration. Debuffing both Chopper and Kanaan will also be quite tough. They both have high tenacity (Kanaan's is really high when taunting), and Chopper has all that evasion while taunting.


Culling Blade doesn't prevent revive, and Backup Plan is likely to be cast on the taunter, as they should be nearest death, which means that Culling Blade basically turns into a buff wipe on this squad instead of an insta-kill.

Stacking offense should worry you. Your guys are tanky, Phoenix are tankier. The longer the fight goes on, the more likely they win.

I won't say it can't work, but trying to take these guys down via debuffs is like trying to kill a glutton by feeding them to death.

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:



Actually the 25% max health heal from a debuff happens when they get the debuff, not at the start of their turn. Their is ALSO bonus protection regeneration on their turn when they are debuffed.

You missed the part where they won't have lost health until you get through their protection. The heal does nothing until you are damaging their health bar which is about the time you'd be one-shotting them with culling blade anyway.

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:


Culling Blade doesn't prevent revive, and Backup Plan is likely to be cast on the taunter, as they should be nearest death, which means that Culling Blade basically turns into a buff wipe on this squad instead of an insta-kill.

This is where the bad AI is important as I was getting at before. If all Kanan has lost is protection she's not going to Backup Plan him on D. She doesn't use her skills well under AI control. Don't bank on revives.

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:


I won't say it can't work, but trying to take these guys down via debuffs is like trying to kill a glutton by feeding them to death.

That's exactly how most gluttons die.

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:

"Cesium;971165" wrote:

"Woodroward;971064" wrote:

"Cesium;971038" wrote:
I'm thinking of running Zader (l), Krooper, TFP, Shore once deathtrooper and krennic become farmable (or even if they don't, still not entirely sold on their survivability at low star level). I was wondering how well this team would do against the new rebels.

TFP should go first (assuming equal mods here) and put buff immunity on everyone's head + ability block maybe Chopper (not sure if that would be best). This should reduce the turn meter plus put a stop to the Protection Up. They could still counter attack, but they would just be hitting shore. I guess I would want to make my DT fast so he could go next and increase the cooldowns + take away those taunts if they are up. Oh, and he would apply AoE healing immunity with more turn meter removal.

Then Vader, Krennic and TFP would get their AoE's providing Dots (TM removal chance), Stagger (TM Removal), and more buff immunity (if the first AoE didn't stick, also adds TM removal)

Oh plus death trooper would double tap them all and daze + stun (if the first daze sticks) them.

The key here would be removing their turn meter so they wont get turns to attack/regen health and protection, and TFP's buff immunity would prevent protection up and taunts. TFP and Zader (and I guess krennic) would provide the dps needed to burn them down before they get a couple of turns (or even one).

I guess if I lack the dps to burn them down I could sub in Nihilus instead of shore, and risk the counter attacks...

What do you guys think? Will this work?
@Woodroward you seem to understand the Phoenix abilities best, is their a flaw in my plan that I am missing? Or something obvious that I am forgetting?

Sounds like way too many debuffs to me. Zader especially sounds super bad against the Phoenix to me.

25% health recovery every time they get a debuff, plus double protection regeneration (30%) every turn because of it as well. With Vader's auto refreshing dots, you're basically giving them over a full bar of health every turn or two. You do have healing immunity, but do you have 100% uptime on it? If not, then I'd steer clear of debuffs against this team, and Zader especially.

Jedi would be good against this team, they have a lot of buffs and buff wipes. That is where this team can suffer. Debuffing them just powers them up. I truly think the new rebel team would destroy any Sith team when on offense, and be very tough for any Sith team to beat on defense.

But they won't be recovering health at the beginning of the encounter, since I would be working on taking down their protection first. The buff immunity would make sure they wouldn't regen the protection while I was working on it, so them getting back health they already had doesn't worry me.

Once I got their protection off I should be able to just one shot them with culling blade (with all the debuffing going around) and nihilus if I include him. TFP can do enough damage that they won't be able to heal back.

Another thing is that while buff immunity won't prevent healing back protection on debuff, that particular unique only takes effect on the start of their turn. So if the Zader lead can control their turn meter along with krennic's stagger, then I think that the particular one I am killing will not get a turn and I should be able to avoid both the healing and protection healing. The Protection Up wont work through buff immunity, so they will not be able to heal back anything unless they take a turn (which they won't be able to)

As far as the counter attacks/stacking offence are concerned I'm not to worried about that since my team would be pretty tanky with or without shore.

I think this should work against Phoenix pretty well. Maybe not perfectly, since it requires some careful turn meter manipulation, but still pretty well. Another thing is, once I kill Kanan/chopper I can really burn through the rest of them with Krooper assist, Deathmark from deathtrooper (Which is amazing!), and the occasional culling blade/annihilate, not to mention TFP...

Actually the 25% max health heal from a debuff happens when they get the debuff, not at the start of their turn. Their is ALSO bonus protection regeneration on their turn when they are debuffed.

Buff immunity could prevent bonus protection, but then it also insta-heals them and increases their protection regeneration. Debuffing both Chopper and Kanaan will also be quite tough. They both have high tenacity (Kanaan's is really high when taunting), and Chopper has all that evasion while taunting.


Culling Blade doesn't prevent revive, and Backup Plan is likely to be cast on the taunter, as they should be nearest death, which means that Culling Blade basically turns into a buff wipe on this squad instead of an insta-kill.

Stacking offense should worry you. Your guys are tanky, Phoenix are tankier. The longer the fight goes on, the more likely they win.

I won't say it can't work, but trying to take these guys down via debuffs is like trying to kill a glutton by feeding them to death.

Aha that's what I was missing, i knew there was something...
So backup plan is basically a greater heal if they get a turn (my setup prevents them from getting one) and a revive. Unfortunately Hera won't get a turn to use it with all the turn meter control... But she might, with bad RNG. So lets say she does actually get to use it on her first turn (I doubt the AI will prioritize it though). I guess that I would need nihilus and his annihilate to take out the one with the buff and just leave that one alone until it is available.

Another reason for when I said stacking offense doesn't worry me is that the Phoenix squadron are kinda slow (with some exceptions), and I will make them even slower with my turn meter manipulation, so they will get very few attacks, if any.

As for Chopper and Kanan and their tenacity/evasion... That will be a problem. I guess I could leave them alone since they won't be able to taunt through buff immunity and I could just ability block chopper with TFP first (he wont dodge TFP, Vader, NIhilus's first special, well he might if RNG is against me but I doubt it).

All in all, I just don't see their heal working since they won't be able to get turns at all. Besides, they could heal all they want and I could still annihilate them even with backup plan...
Their slow speed + vulnerability to turn meter manipulation and stuns/daze/stagger from Krooper, makes them vulnerable to this squad in particular.

Of course, we can theory craft all day but in the end only a real battle between my theoretical team and Phoenix squadron will prove anything.

I think Phoenix will be like zeta Jedi squad. Annoying to kill, potentially, but no threat to meta. On a relative basis, garbage if you take the expense into account. But at least they only require money, not zetas which is actually nice.

I am farming them but have low expectations.

"fascizio;971207" wrote:

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:



Actually the 25% max health heal from a debuff happens when they get the debuff, not at the start of their turn. Their is ALSO bonus protection regeneration on their turn when they are debuffed.

A)You missed the part where they won't have lost health until you get through their protection. The heal does nothing until you are damaging their health bar which is about the time you'd be one-shotting them with culling blade anyway.

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:


Culling Blade doesn't prevent revive, and Backup Plan is likely to be cast on the taunter, as they should be nearest death, which means that Culling Blade basically turns into a buff wipe on this squad instead of an insta-kill.

B)This is where the bad AI is important as I was getting at before. If all Kanan has lost is protection she's not going to Backup Plan him on D. She doesn't use her skills well under AI control. Don't bank on revives.

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:


I won't say it can't work, but trying to take these guys down via debuffs is like trying to kill a glutton by feeding them to death.

C)That's exactly how most gluttons die.

A) I missed nothing, you missed the part where his entire team debuffs with every move, which means 25% health recovery from practically every attack the guy makes. Who cares if you have to burn through protection first? It's a very relevant point that makes a big difference in this competition.

B) His health will be low before he dies. He won't die quickly, He will most likely be the first person to dip into their health bar. If the AI runs backup plan like most heals, it will work perfectly in the Phoenix squad, though probably not in any comp without a taunter.

C)Meh. Gluttons die because they're gluttons, not because someone fed them to death. It's a cumulative effect, not a one encounter deal.

"Woodroward;971324" wrote:

"fascizio;971207" wrote:

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:



Actually the 25% max health heal from a debuff happens when they get the debuff, not at the start of their turn. Their is ALSO bonus protection regeneration on their turn when they are debuffed.

A)You missed the part where they won't have lost health until you get through their protection. The heal does nothing until you are damaging their health bar which is about the time you'd be one-shotting them with culling blade anyway.

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:


Culling Blade doesn't prevent revive, and Backup Plan is likely to be cast on the taunter, as they should be nearest death, which means that Culling Blade basically turns into a buff wipe on this squad instead of an insta-kill.

B)This is where the bad AI is important as I was getting at before. If all Kanan has lost is protection she's not going to Backup Plan him on D. She doesn't use her skills well under AI control. Don't bank on revives.

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:


I won't say it can't work, but trying to take these guys down via debuffs is like trying to kill a glutton by feeding them to death.

C)That's exactly how most gluttons die.

A) I missed nothing, you missed the part where his entire team debuffs with every move, which means 25% health recovery from practically every attack the guy makes. Who cares if you have to burn through protection first? It's a very relevant point that makes a big difference in this competition.

B) His health will be low before he dies. He won't die quickly, He will most likely be the first person to dip into their health bar. If the AI runs backup plan like most heals, it will work perfectly in the Phoenix squad, though probably not in any comp without a taunter.

C)Meh. Gluttons die because they're gluttons, not because someone fed them to death. It's a cumulative effect, not a one encounter deal.

All those early debuff attacks are just setting up kill shots for Nihilus Vader and TFP though. I don't mind if they have full health, I can still one shot them.

AI won't run backup plan... hera won't get a turn with my set up, besides if she does she wont use that ability first anyway (most likely the assist first). Backup plan won't work through buff immunity as well

"Cesium;971331" wrote:

"Woodroward;971324" wrote:

"fascizio;971207" wrote:

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:



Actually the 25% max health heal from a debuff happens when they get the debuff, not at the start of their turn. Their is ALSO bonus protection regeneration on their turn when they are debuffed.

A)You missed the part where they won't have lost health until you get through their protection. The heal does nothing until you are damaging their health bar which is about the time you'd be one-shotting them with culling blade anyway.

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:


Culling Blade doesn't prevent revive, and Backup Plan is likely to be cast on the taunter, as they should be nearest death, which means that Culling Blade basically turns into a buff wipe on this squad instead of an insta-kill.

B)This is where the bad AI is important as I was getting at before. If all Kanan has lost is protection she's not going to Backup Plan him on D. She doesn't use her skills well under AI control. Don't bank on revives.

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:


I won't say it can't work, but trying to take these guys down via debuffs is like trying to kill a glutton by feeding them to death.

C)That's exactly how most gluttons die.

A) I missed nothing, you missed the part where his entire team debuffs with every move, which means 25% health recovery from practically every attack the guy makes. Who cares if you have to burn through protection first? It's a very relevant point that makes a big difference in this competition.

B) His health will be low before he dies. He won't die quickly, He will most likely be the first person to dip into their health bar. If the AI runs backup plan like most heals, it will work perfectly in the Phoenix squad, though probably not in any comp without a taunter.

C)Meh. Gluttons die because they're gluttons, not because someone fed them to death. It's a cumulative effect, not a one encounter deal.

All those early debuff attacks are just setting up kill shots for Nihilus Vader and TFP though. I don't mind if they have full health, I can still one shot them.

AI won't run backup plan... hera won't get a turn with my set up, besides if she does she wont use that ability first anyway (most likely the assist first). Backup plan won't work through buff immunity as well

You'd think buff immunity would stop backup plan, but it doesn't stop the offense up that Ima-Gun-Di gives people when they are attacked, it only appears long enough for them to counter attack, but it still shows through buff immunity. Not saying this will, but buff immunity isn't certain to block buffs apparently.

As for bringing in Nihilus, yes, that's another story.

I really don't think you will be able to keep the Phoenix from going man. Vader's tm removal isn't that reliable outside of the Rancor, and isn't that much either. I wish you luck on it, but I just don't see it working well. I think you'll have an uphill battle running any Sith/Empire team against them.

"Woodroward;971345" wrote:

"Cesium;971331" wrote:

"Woodroward;971324" wrote:

"fascizio;971207" wrote:

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:



Actually the 25% max health heal from a debuff happens when they get the debuff, not at the start of their turn. Their is ALSO bonus protection regeneration on their turn when they are debuffed.

A)You missed the part where they won't have lost health until you get through their protection. The heal does nothing until you are damaging their health bar which is about the time you'd be one-shotting them with culling blade anyway.

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:


Culling Blade doesn't prevent revive, and Backup Plan is likely to be cast on the taunter, as they should be nearest death, which means that Culling Blade basically turns into a buff wipe on this squad instead of an insta-kill.

B)This is where the bad AI is important as I was getting at before. If all Kanan has lost is protection she's not going to Backup Plan him on D. She doesn't use her skills well under AI control. Don't bank on revives.

"Woodroward;971186" wrote:


I won't say it can't work, but trying to take these guys down via debuffs is like trying to kill a glutton by feeding them to death.

C)That's exactly how most gluttons die.

A) I missed nothing, you missed the part where his entire team debuffs with every move, which means 25% health recovery from practically every attack the guy makes. Who cares if you have to burn through protection first? It's a very relevant point that makes a big difference in this competition.

B) His health will be low before he dies. He won't die quickly, He will most likely be the first person to dip into their health bar. If the AI runs backup plan like most heals, it will work perfectly in the Phoenix squad, though probably not in any comp without a taunter.

C)Meh. Gluttons die because they're gluttons, not because someone fed them to death. It's a cumulative effect, not a one encounter deal.

All those early debuff attacks are just setting up kill shots for Nihilus Vader and TFP though. I don't mind if they have full health, I can still one shot them.

AI won't run backup plan... hera won't get a turn with my set up, besides if she does she wont use that ability first anyway (most likely the assist first). Backup plan won't work through buff immunity as well

You'd think buff immunity would stop backup plan, but it doesn't stop the offense up that Ima-Gun-Di gives people when they are attacked, it only appears long enough for them to counter attack, but it still shows through buff immunity. Not saying this will, but buff immunity isn't certain to block buffs apparently.

As for bringing in Nihilus, yes, that's another story.

I really don't think you will be able to keep the Phoenix from going man. Vader's tm removal isn't that reliable outside of the Rancor, and isn't that much either. I wish you luck on it, but I just don't see it working well. I think you'll have an uphill battle running any Sith/Empire team against them.

Thanks for you input, its been interesting theory crafting with ya.
I guess in the end all we can do is wait and see. Arena trials are about all that can be used to tell for sure. I will be building this team, mainly because no one on my leader board has Krooper + Zader, but also because I don't want to go Zaul like everyone else. I guess we'll see if it works at all :D

Can confirm Backup Plan will buff through buff immunity, accidentally did just last night actually.

That doesn't change the fact that she won't use it on someone with a full health bar even if they've lost all their protection. Kanan is vulnerable to culling blade, no matter how much you insist otherwise.