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"Lianara;579695" wrote:
"ImYourHuckleberry;579644" wrote:
"Lianara;579624" wrote:
"ImYourHuckleberry;579617" wrote:
"Lianara;579589" wrote:
"leef;579500" wrote:
This is just a horrible argument. We are debating something neither of us can proof, and you're dismissing it because its an assumption without anything backing it up. Your assumption that it is in fact not what is happening on the forum currently, isnt backed up either. We both made assumptions that neither of us can proof, so simply calling it an assumption is just a hollow argument that looks good on paper.
You and OP made an assumption, which is the basis, the premise, of both of your arguments. I don't have to backup my assumption, merely point out that your original premise is flawed. If you do expect me to provide evidence to disprove your assumption in order to disprove it, this becomes is a logical fallacy, actually called 'Argument from Ignorance',
You would essentially claim that just because I can't disprove something you can't prove, you are right.
The burden of proof of the underlying premise is with those bringing the argument forward, not those calling it wrong. If you do bring any sort of proof, the burden shifts.
And by the way, I am NOT arguing that your (and OPs) premise is right or wrong, just pointing out that lack of facts about the underlying assumption invalidates the argument.
Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proved false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that: there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
true
false
unknown between true or false
being unknowable (among the first three).
In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
Anywhere on the forum, there's criticism of the game, the employees, the company . And they are the same and are repeated often. I don't need to prove this as it's common knowledge, anyone with eyes and a phone can see it.
That wasn't your argument. You claimed was that this criticism is caused by groupthink, and is not genuine. Leef claimed that because I can't prove the contrary, his (and your) argument is valid, which I pointed out is a logical fallacy.
I didn't claim all critcism is caused by group think, only that group think exists now, and can be shown by the critism of the game, the employees and the company, all being similar in nature. This criticism attacks anyone who disagrees with them, so that it in essence silences dissent of their dissent. As you are trying to do to me, through the guise of logical blah, blah.
How exactly can it be shown? Are you really saying that that since is there is criticism of the game, groupthink exists? One is not guaranteed to be derived from the other.
If you were critical to those critical of the game by providing evidence of why they are wrong, I would not have argued with you. But you opinion is not a dissenting opinion, you didn't target specific complaint or complainant, you (wrongly) grouped all complainers into one category. You started disparaging forum users for complaints against the company.
And regardless of your low opinion of logic, it's probably something the forums need more of.
Don't get caught up in your logic. Try to understand what it is I'm actually saying. This forum is one thing, built on negativity that is readily apparent to any who come here. When I go to other forums, say for instance LINE, where I have many acquaintances ...it is nothing like it is here on the forums. My friends on LINE actually like the game, like their guild, like the recent changes to SWGOH, and are having a great time. I know, some may find that hard to believe, but that's because maybe they are in a group of thought that won't allow it that people actually find the game fun and exciting. Each person should think for themself, and THAT is all I am saying. Feel free to dissent, it is our right, but we should always think for ourself and not limit our acquaintances to people here on these forums, or on reddit. Expand the circle of friends. I know many people who don't even come to these forums anymore, just because they don't like the atmosphere, the constant complaints."DroidsURLooking4;579771" wrote:
So this reminds me of a good story. One day back in 'Nam, we were patrolling near a reported munitions supply point. I was on point, and Skippy was following me navigating. He had the map and compass. We were skirting a rice paddy in the treeline, but needed to cross the paddy to continue. Skippy thought he knew a shortcut, so we backed into the trees and hunkered down for a few while we looked at it.
We brought the firing team leaders in to look at the map. Lenny, Scooter, and Jags peered down at the map with Skippy and me. The mosquitos were terrible, and I remember smearing bug juice all over the map by accident. Scooter sadly had the bowel runs for the last couple of days due to some bad water he drank, so he was already in a foul mood. And he lit into me for smearing the grease pencil on the map. Poor fella hadn't had a solid movement in days, and he was fit to be tied about it. And he took it out on me.
Needless to say, an argument broke out about where to go next. We were running out of water, Scooter needed to clean himself off, and we were quite a few clicks from the bivouac site. Lenny and Skippy wanted to take the shortcut. Jags and I wanted to continue as planned. And Scooter was just soiled, angry, and disagreeable with everything. And he made it impossible to come to a consensus, or even a majority. Nothing was good enough for him. He kept claiming that god wanted the squad to go a completely different way--across the paddy. We just figured he needed some water and some ****. We thought he maybe was becoming delusional.
What's the point? None of us knew. We all just knew we were grumpy due to the heat, mosquitos, and the **** water. All of these adverse conditions made all of us irritable, and we took it out on each other. For no reason. Some arguments made sense, and some made none whatsoever. But the argument just went on for what seemed like forever. We just needed to wrap up and move on so we could get to the bivouac site.
Kind of like this post....
A lesson to keep on point. Thanks man, and thank you for your service in Nam!- No game is perfect, and there will always be complaining, period. It's the way the world works, baby!
- @lianara
If you rather just dismiss a theory about how the forum has become such a negative place than actually discussing a possible explaination than i guess were done.
It is very plausible that some sort of groupthink/snowball effect is the cause of some of the negativity on the forum. The proof lies is the fact that the forum is filled with super harsch comments eventhough the game itself is actually flourishing. (and some basic knowledge about human behaviour)
I'm not interrested in terminology, i'm just interested in making the forum a more enjoyable place because i think that would improve the gaming+forum experience of its members. "ImYourHuckleberry;579791" wrote:
"Lianara;579695" wrote:
"ImYourHuckleberry;579644" wrote:
"Lianara;579624" wrote:
"ImYourHuckleberry;579617" wrote:
"Lianara;579589" wrote:
"leef;579500" wrote:
This is just a horrible argument. We are debating something neither of us can proof, and you're dismissing it because its an assumption without anything backing it up. Your assumption that it is in fact not what is happening on the forum currently, isnt backed up either. We both made assumptions that neither of us can proof, so simply calling it an assumption is just a hollow argument that looks good on paper.
You and OP made an assumption, which is the basis, the premise, of both of your arguments. I don't have to backup my assumption, merely point out that your original premise is flawed. If you do expect me to provide evidence to disprove your assumption in order to disprove it, this becomes is a logical fallacy, actually called 'Argument from Ignorance',
You would essentially claim that just because I can't disprove something you can't prove, you are right.
The burden of proof of the underlying premise is with those bringing the argument forward, not those calling it wrong. If you do bring any sort of proof, the burden shifts.
And by the way, I am NOT arguing that your (and OPs) premise is right or wrong, just pointing out that lack of facts about the underlying assumption invalidates the argument.
Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proved false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that: there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
true
false
unknown between true or false
being unknowable (among the first three).
In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
Anywhere on the forum, there's criticism of the game, the employees, the company . And they are the same and are repeated often. I don't need to prove this as it's common knowledge, anyone with eyes and a phone can see it.
That wasn't your argument. You claimed was that this criticism is caused by groupthink, and is not genuine. Leef claimed that because I can't prove the contrary, his (and your) argument is valid, which I pointed out is a logical fallacy.
I didn't claim all critcism is caused by group think, only that group think exists now, and can be shown by the critism of the game, the employees and the company, all being similar in nature. This criticism attacks anyone who disagrees with them, so that it in essence silences dissent of their dissent. As you are trying to do to me, through the guise of logical blah, blah.
How exactly can it be shown? Are you really saying that that since is there is criticism of the game, groupthink exists? One is not guaranteed to be derived from the other.
If you were critical to those critical of the game by providing evidence of why they are wrong, I would not have argued with you. But you opinion is not a dissenting opinion, you didn't target specific complaint or complainant, you (wrongly) grouped all complainers into one category. You started disparaging forum users for complaints against the company.
And regardless of your low opinion of logic, it's probably something the forums need more of.
Don't get caught up in your logic. Try to understand what it is I'm actually saying. This forum is one thing, built on negativity that is readily apparent to any who come here. When I go to other forums, say for instance LINE, where I have many acquaintances ...it is nothing like it is here on the forums. My friends on LINE actually like the game, like their guild, like the recent changes to SWGOH, and are having a great time. I know, some may find that hard to believe, but that's because maybe they are in a group of thought that won't allow it that people actually find the game fun and exciting. Each person should think for themself, and THAT is all I am saying. Feel free to dissent, it is our right, but we should always think for ourself and not limit our acquaintances to people here on these forums, or on reddit. Expand the circle of friends. I know many people who don't even come to these forums anymore, just because they don't like the atmosphere, the constant complaints.
So, stop insinuating that it is something it is not. This forum (and Reddit) are the only way short of quitting for people to express their frustration . In fact if you are so afraid of being exposed to it, don't read or engage in these posts. Suggesting that people should think for themselves is commendable. Stating that they are actually not is baseless and arrogant."leef;579841" wrote:
@lianara
If you rather just dismiss a theory about how the forum has become such a negative place than actually discussing a possible explaination than i guess were done.
It is very plausible that some sort of groupthink/snowball effect is the cause of some of the negativity on the forum. The proof lies is the fact that the forum is filled with super harsch comments eventhough the game itself is actually flourishing. (and some basic knowledge about human behaviour)
I'm not interrested in terminology, i'm just interested in making the forum a more enjoyable place because i think that would improve the gaming+forum experience of its members.
How exactly is that 'proof'? No possibility that the forum became negative due to RECENT events? No possibility that concerns are legitimate, at least from posters viewpoint? In finance there is a saying - past performance does not guarantee future results. That the game has been successful for the past 8 months does not mean that current unhappiness is baseless."Lianara;579858" wrote:
"leef;579841" wrote:
@lianara
If you rather just dismiss a theory about how the forum has become such a negative place than actually discussing a possible explaination than i guess were done.
It is very plausible that some sort of groupthink/snowball effect is the cause of some of the negativity on the forum. The proof lies is the fact that the forum is filled with super harsch comments eventhough the game itself is actually flourishing. (and some basic knowledge about human behaviour)
I'm not interrested in terminology, i'm just interested in making the forum a more enjoyable place because i think that would improve the gaming+forum experience of its members.
How exactly is that 'proof'? No possibility that the forum became negative due to RECENT events? No possibility that concerns are legitimate, at least from posters viewpoint? In finance there is a saying - past performance does not guarantee future results. That the game has been successful for the past 8 months does not mean that current unhappiness is baseless.
The concers are legitimate, just disproportionate."leef;579871" wrote:
"Lianara;579858" wrote:
"leef;579841" wrote:
@lianara
If you rather just dismiss a theory about how the forum has become such a negative place than actually discussing a possible explaination than i guess were done.
It is very plausible that some sort of groupthink/snowball effect is the cause of some of the negativity on the forum. The proof lies is the fact that the forum is filled with super harsch comments eventhough the game itself is actually flourishing. (and some basic knowledge about human behaviour)
I'm not interrested in terminology, i'm just interested in making the forum a more enjoyable place because i think that would improve the gaming+forum experience of its members.
How exactly is that 'proof'? No possibility that the forum became negative due to RECENT events? No possibility that concerns are legitimate, at least from posters viewpoint? In finance there is a saying - past performance does not guarantee future results. That the game has been successful for the past 8 months does not mean that current unhappiness is baseless.
The concers are legitimate, just disproportionate.
How can you judge proportion? It's proportional to how much money and time people put into the game. Considering that forum users are themselves a small portion of overall community, and is one of the only avenues people have to express frustration, it's natural that forums concentrate negative opinions. It's quiet possible had mods appeared in current state right away the forum would be considerably more positive ... We won't know."EscapeArtist51;579887" wrote:
"ImYourHuckleberry;578680" wrote:
No one is infallible except God. And unless you're God, you need to come with facts and figures. But remember, figures lie, and liars figure.
As for dissent, feel free, it's your choice. I'm from USA, where people are allowed to express their ideas. But I don't buy it, that the game is as bad as the group thinkers say who dismiss entirely a fun game. At the core of the idea that this is a terrible game is the spirit of entitlement. Deep down, those complaining are trying to manipulate the outcome to their benefit at the expense of others. To heck with my neighbor, I want to win and I want to win now. If it weren't for this desire to win, the complaints have nothing to stand on, but would instead readily accept SWGOH for what it is, a phone game that's fun to play and pass the time. But as I said, and the only thing I said, is if you're unhappy with your entertainment, that's on you, not the devs or EA/CG. Once you see that, Then you'll be happy. You see, at the core, I am concerned for the well-being of my complaining gamers.
You know, I got a warning for saying Jesus once, in a reaction to a thread. Kinda made me a bit salty, so I'm gonna report you for this post, just for jokes, lemme know if something actually comes out of it. Since religion is against TOS. Jesus however can be someone's name. Also I didn't even start a religion debate..
Anyways, there are so many problems with this game, people just want them fixed. They see the potential of what the game could be, but it has so many imbalances, bugs and the occasional cash grab holding it back. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out, nor does it take people, trying to fit in to realize that...
Look at the last update, 350k a day, and free mod removal. That's our reward for going through everything that happened the prior week. THE TOUGHEST WEEK this game has ever had, we only got 350k in credits, and free mod removal, oh wait and some chewy shards, can't forget that! Oh I'm sorry, I forgot, they're also doing a +25 percent extra bonus deal, on only the 100 dollar crystal pack, and the 50 dollar one, okay that seems fair right? There are so many reasons to complain about this game, people do it because they want the game to become better, they want stoopid things like random +20 chewy shards as an apology, to no longer happen. The mod fiasco was the worst thing, I've ever witnessed in a video game, people aren't forming these opinions just because their friends are.
People are tired of the game not treating their players fairly. Especially their paying players.. And like I always say on here, when people pay their hard earned cash money, *bird man hand rub*, they have a right to complain when the product is poor. Yes, some people can look past all the bugs and they're having loads of fun, I am one of them currently but that doesn't mean I don't want any of the problems plaguing the game left alone. The biggest problem right now is the lack of credits and it is failing to be acknowledged in a proper way. I dislike how the game is currently built on an addictive gambling-esque model pressuring people to spend in the right now but what can I do? They don't listen to any of my recommendations on how to treat their customers better, and make money at the same time. It really feels like you're wasting your time when you propose something meaningful and you get no responses. Remember that "balance specialist thread"? It got closed, and it only had 6 responses by the time it ended.... and the occasional cash grab holding it back. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out, nor does it take people, trying to fit in to realize that...
Comments like this are an example of what I'm talking about. Once I read something like this I stop reading and ignore the whole post.
1) The company is entitled to make a profit. They are not a non-profit charity. There are investors, employees and vendors who all have this game as a source of income. There is nothing wrong with making a profit. So why make EA/CG sound evil for doing what it's supposed to do, and that is to make a profit? I should hold you to the same standard: you my friend can't take home a pay check, because it's a money grab!
2) I feel others repeat this same garbage, without even thinking it through as to what is meant by it. Thus my 'trolling' on group think.
3) If your comments were taken to the Nth degree and profit wasn't apart of the business model, this game would not exist. Then what?
4) "It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out?" So there is now pressure in your statement to accept this statement as fact when its false. Again, my trolling on group think.
5) "Nor does it take people who are trying to fit in" ... my point has nothing to do with people trying to fit in.
This is what I mean by group think.
group think
2.
the lack of individual creativity that is sometimes characteristic of group interaction.
Thus the title to my post, where has all the original ideas gone?
You seem authentic, but sorry, I didn't read the rest of your post, because I won't go there."Wulfdane;579962" wrote:
Group think is natural human condition and it swing both ways. Not all people suffer from it, but most do.
You're not going to change human nature by complaining about it on a forum.
It better to focus on how you act on the forum, worry less about others.
You may have a point there.
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