Maul and savage

"Sebek;c-2167067" wrote:
I think it's great, but Stagger in Maul's Special is kins of a bad Thing for Savage who wants to be hit

Against Jedi ,At a 75% chance ,Plus it can be cleansed . And it has a 3 turn cooldown.
Also both savage and maul gain defence and tenacity for applying debuffs so it won't effect savage in the slightest .

I'm gonna be 100% hones with you, even thou I know this might end up with me being a bit harsh (apologies for that in advance). I hate these. I seriously do, because I believe these versions are weaker than what we currently have in the game. The reason for that is simple: I believe your additions have destroyed more synergy than they have added. Not just synergy between the 2 characters mind you, but the synergy within each individual kit. Allow me to explain what I mean and why I believe this:
Lets start with Savage's new unique "Pain is weakness". As pretty much all the value it adds is either taking other value away or stacking the same thing on top of the same thing. No joke, this entire unique is a mess. I adds Potency, Tenacity, Defence and health to both Savage and Maul. Sounds good right? Until you realize that the added Defence makes the Defence up form Savage's other unique entirely pointless (staking the same thing on top of the same thing), Maul already gains Health and Potency in pretty big, possible endless numbers, for which he even doesn't have to be in the lead (again staking the same thing on top of the same thing), and the tenacity takes away the value of his dispel from his other unique. What is the point of having an incredibly consistent dispel like that (the most consistent in the game even) if you can just gain endless amounts of tenacity (directly taking value away, aka value interference, from the zeta no less). Everything clashes with other parts of both kits. Stacking the same thing on top of the same thing and value interference are crimson flags for designing. That is not a good unique.
Then there's the stagger. now @Sebek already pointed out how this interferes with Savage's unique, specifically his turn meter train. But it also has value interference with Maul's lead. Maul is generally a slow character. so if he staggers an enemy, that enemy is still more likely to take a turn just before him. Meaning that he most likely won't gain stealth just before his next turn, which is the worst time to gain stealth. Because then he takes his turn and loses it, and is immediately open for another critical hit from the enemy team. This is also why his lead grants turn meter, it makes it meter likely that the enemy takes a turn after him when his turn meter is low and he gains the stealth (and crit immunity) for the longest possible duration (when they're faster he already has it). So stagger just opens him up to a 2 hit killer combo. Yikes. The defence down on his basic doesn't work for the same reason. In order to gain value out of it, he must plant it just after they've taken a turn. which means he will be hit by them, then inflict it and thus open himself up to the same 2 hit combo. It becomes a choice between gaining value out of the def down or his lead: value interference. That's why he has offence up: with the status effect being on him, he doesn't have to worry about the moment it is applied.
But all of this is nothing compared to the biggest sin in this kit idea: The only time that having the same stat in a kit twice is ok is if one of them is in the lead. As the lead isn't character specific. Yet you decided to take the evasion away from his unique, thus making his own lead for himself far weaker. And in return you added accuracy: A stat that has no value against the Foresight heavy jedi. If he wasn't so jedi focused, this would be less of a problem, but the fact that you again weakened his lead remains (seriously, the zeta again. Whats with you removing value from the zeta. People went nuts when Finn's zeta was slightly nerfed even thou the rest was undoubtedly buffed. I'm genuinely terrified that you do the same thing with 2 characters at the same time.)
I just don't like this. Your additions work just as hard against the existing parts as that they help them. Which means you have more wordy and less solid designed characters that basically perform the same as they did before. I agree these need a rework, but not like this. I wan't to like these, I really do. But I just can't. (p.s. the speed up sounds nice, but considering Savage already gains turn meter en mass, it adds almost nothing. But it does add, so that's nice.)
I did a rework idea of Maul and Savage myself quite a while ago. Was quite the redesign. Maybe it can help inspire you on the next version of these (which I'm definitely looking forward to). You can find them here, if you're interested: https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/223566/darth-maul-and-savage-opress-rework-ideas
Finally, I want to once again apologize if I came over harsh or cruel in any way. I just don't really know how else to make my opinion on this clear. Which is a limit of mine I'm still trying to overcome. Hope my feedback still helps you.

Well, I completely agree with @Ichiraikou, and I think these characters should be more powerful. I think this is kind of unbalanced in a sense. But good try anyway.

Ok I will answer each point for you to break it down .
The defence up he gains can be dispelled. The stacking defence can not be .
Also defence up and having a stacking defence is not pointless unless you think that being able to get close to a 80%+ mark is pointless.
You should really watch all the new defence mods vids and strategy there is , it's actually been proven to be more useful than health in alot of case.
So after a couple of turns you have a savage with tons of base undispellable defence and if your smart you modded for 100k+ health
Also do you think that maul gaining half of those buffs of stacking tenacity and defence is a bad thing ?

Savage dispell and gaining of ally debuffs does not pass through a tenacity check . Go look at swgoh.gg and see the mechanics regardless of his tenacity he will dispell a random sith ally( as someone with a R7 savage with 100k health and 85% tenacity he always gains an allys debuffs)
So what I have basically done is made it harder for the enemy to debuff him directly .

Do you think that savage gaining extra potency and Max Health if maul is in the leader slot is also a bad thing ?

I think that's deals with brute .

Maul defence down on basic .
Maul dealing defence down on his basic on top of what he had before ...."The defence down on his basic doesn't work for the same reason. In order to gain value out of it, he must plant it just after they've taken a turn."

So maul is now fighting 1 Vs 5 ?
He inflicts defence down on his basic for one turn there are 4 ally's on his team will one of them never make use of it ?
Are 1 turn defence down debuffs on basic useless in this game ?
Having to choose between defence down or offence up again this makes the premise it's 1 Vs 5 . If there is a kill shot you go for it like normal and gain offence up and go again, if not we'll now you can apply a debuff for the enjoyment of an ally.
Again this is silly analysis in my opinion.

Maul dealing stagger .
Do you think that him having have a75% chance to inflict stagger on enemies is going to kill the kit.
This is a turn based game and the more turns you can get with a attacker esp one that can link turns on basic with kills and has stacks for kills should make perfect use of stagger.

Even on defence it's something that will ruin the opposite team as it can mess up their turn order by having your team reach the next turn .
It also makes up for the slow speed after the start as you think being under stelth is always good thing, there is this thing in the game called AoE , dispells, facture , buff immunity...... ( stacking tenacity could help the last one)
Also like to add that yes you might think that getting hit with savage for the longest time is good but if he doesn't take a turn ( daze ) then he won't gain his health back through his HoTs and might get picked off with a big hit which is why I also increased the TM he gains on brute but that was missed.

Speed up adds nothing ? So if you had the option to have 25%speed you won't take it .
Savage gains TM when he is hit if the enemy's doesn't hit him he will be slow ,why leave it in their hands , get some extra speed for the both of them .

The changing of evasion up to accuracy is the only real valid point made.
I think the gaining of extra max health , stacking defence and tenacity would make up for it in the longer battles but you don't see the value of maul having those stacking stats so each to their own .

Edit : having savage gain half these bonuses when he gets kills too ,gave savage too much evasion and counters him needing to be hit slightly and with stacking defence he can afford to be hit more than before .
Swapping for accuracy did nerf mauls evasion but boosted savages heath steal , crit chance and accuracy too and like savage the stacking defence and tenacity plus the extra max health means he can survive more hits just like savage .

Having overpower reduce its own cooldowns on kill bad or good?

Edit : What about the fact he no longer needs to crit to apply offence down ,and the added health steal and ignoring defence on hits against Jedi?


@Ichiraikou hope this didn't read aggressively. Also look up brutes cleanse mechanics seems like your major killing blow to their synergy is that .

Stormtrooper ( imp ver) gains stacking defence for each empire ally , + defence for all imperial troopers himself included . Then when he uses his taunt special he gains. Defence up buff .

At r7 with someone who can mod and a defence leader like gar Saxon, plus him and 4 scrub imps and it's 40% from lead . 40% for each empire ally = 240% + 30% for all imperial troopers and defence up buff totaling 320% puts him at the 90% range .
Stacking buffs of the same type can be deadly or tanky .

Shaak gives crit damage stacking to clones on special plus offence up to ally's on basic it's deadly .

Edit for a quick bit of math .
My savage is at 57.23% defence at R7 with defence up he's at 66.74%

After savage applys 3 debuffs he's at 70.66% with defence up .
Now let's say he gains 2 debuffs on top he's now at 72.80% with the buff ,and 66.74% without it till the end of the encounter no worries about the dispell or having to gain the buff by being hit, now he's tanky without and even more so with allowing him to get to his turn to heal before dying , plus the longer he is in battle now the worse it will be for the enemy .

After 5+ turns he could have easily 10 stacks and with the added speed up and having certain chance to stagger from maul will help that.
10 stacks plus defence up buff = 76.67% a significant gain .

Also if maul inflicts daze and stagger on all 5 Jedi enemies with special he goes from 50.49 % to 60.47% defence
Any defence downs on his basic will add a further 5% defence stacking each time, 3 more basic takes him to 62.71% defence .

If he ever gets round to the special again could get to 68.67% so he's up 18% reducing 10k hit by a further 1.8k

On to him gaining tenacity having him being able to resist direct exposes ,healing and buff immunity in the later stages of a battle is just a positive as they are his Achilles heel

As you can see my savage has Around 80% tenacity and still cleared the DoT from SiT then gained it for one turn .

Swapped some mods so savage had 118% tenacity still cleared ally debuffs and gained them .
But in most cases savage wasn't stealthed then got crit and cleansed himself so all good .

"Maul already gains Health and Potency in pretty big, possible endless numbers, for which he even doesn't have to be in the lead (again staking the same thing on top of the same thing), "

The added health is always great , I mean when you run out of it in the game you die so having more is a no brainer.
"For which he even doesn't have to be in the lead"
Did I remove his max health from his unique ?
No I added a bonus for 2 brothers whom which one was the master of the other , and now the master who had a Zeta leadership already will now give extra potency and Max Health to them both , and if you remember brute the more debuffs they apply the more defence they get and savage with extra 15% max health is 15,000 more Health for me . Mauls base is 32000 +20% from unique brings him to a starting health of 38,000 no mods not exactly great , if he doesn't get enough turns to stack his health he is normally easy to kill ,more max health helps that. The extra 15% brings him to 44,800 now before mods . And the extra 5% max health steal added to his unique, will now be better sooner .
And the added potency will help savage stick his debuff more on enemies again stacking Ten and Def .
Same with maul applying a debuff on his basic he will stack ten and Def , on top of what I said before it works. unless he is still fighting 1 Vs 5 for you ;)