Forum Discussion
800 Replies
- A "nerf" implies a character (or in this case, as some are saying, faction) is all-around worse in all areas. I don't see that here.
If your G7/G8 Zombie isn't capable of taking a hit or two and getting a turn afterwards, that sounds like a poor modding issue to me. So, this kit change doesn't remove Paper Zombie as a viable option. It just requires you to invest in mods to at least increase her speed. Which you probably should have been doing to begin with.
This change, however, does increase the value of a stronger Zombie (particularly in Arena) while leaving a well-modded Paper Zombie relatively unchanged. In other words, it simply makes a higher gear Zombie better in most cases than a low gear Zombie. Which is the entire point of the rework. "Ruark_Icefire;c-1653267" wrote:
"DarthNekros;c-1653259" wrote:
"CG_TopHat;c-1652991" wrote:
"Citizen_J;c-1652985" wrote:
CG, what happens in the sith raid when zombie is at -100% speed, thrawn swaps TM and zombie pops unbreakable will?
Units with no speed cannot take a turn even when they have 100% turn meter. Players already experience this when they use Thrawn to swap turn meter with a Fractured ally.
Yes, but doesn't that mean that because Zombie popped unbreakable will and cannot take a turn, that she is forever taunting, impossible to kill, and therefore able to solo P1 of the raid?
How would Zombie use Unbreakable Will with -100% speed and thus not being able to take a turn?
Ahhh you're right, for some reason I thought about her dying once to get a stack, activating UW, then getting killed again to have it on her forever, but that is made impossible by her inability to die a second time during this time. So we just have to make very slow zombies with great health, let her die once, throw on UW, and then spam attacks.- Breaking news: Rick Grimes is also really pissed about no more paper zombies
"DyloBin;c-1653281" wrote:
A "nerf" implies a character (or in this case, as some are saying, faction) is all-around worse in all areas. I don't see that here.
If your G7/G8 Zombie isn't capable of taking a hit or two and getting a turn afterwards, that sounds like a poor modding issue to me. So, this kit change doesn't remove Paper Zombie as a viable option. It just requires you to invest in mods to at least increase her speed. Which you probably should have been doing to begin with.
This change, however, does increase the value of a stronger Zombie (particularly in Arena) while leaving a well-modded Paper Zombie relatively unchanged. In other words, it simply makes a higher gear Zombie better in most cases than a low gear Zombie. Which is the entire point of the rework.
It doesn’t make the higher gear any better it only makes the lower levels worse. This team won’t be arena viable with this change and won’t make them any more effective in any other areas of the game this will just make zombie and ns less effective in the raid. And a nerf isn’t necessarily to one toon it can be to an entire faction or rewards or anything that takes the punch away from the players side by a developer. That is why this is a #NERF"Grimstoned;c-1653037" wrote:
I want my **** asajj ventures leadership zeta back. WTH!
Ventress lead should be even better for Zombie now, because it leads to forced turn meter gain for zombie which will help her a lot when she's at -100% speed. I don't see why you're so upset. Daka Zeta, okay I see how that one could be frustrating, but not ventress.
Edit: Okay my bad I didn't think about how units with 0 speed can't take a turn even with full turn meter. Glad I realized it before someone else got mad at least lol
Edit 2: However she still will benefit from the turn meter when her speed is cut in half and she really needs the boost- As someone who's been using paper zombie, I'm perfectly happy that I can gear her up and play around with the new mechanics. +100% speed permanently as long as she gets hit and lives more often than dying? If this is calculated after mods that's going to be over 450 speed with a good speed set.
I haven't played around with the P3 HSTR squad much but if I understand it right then zombie will be taking a bunch of turns with the extra speed, getting a bunch of dead NS assists which should at least somewhat make up for zombie dying less. For P4 HSTR she is getting a team heal which should mean longer attack chains which should also offset some of the reduced damage from zombie deaths.
Also, getting 2 "free" resurrections for NS allies is huge. Right now if a teammate dies and their isn't a rez you just lose that character for the rest of the fight (maybe Daka dies and there are no adds to use Talzin's special, maybe Talzin dies and Daka's heal/res is on cooldown, etc.). After this rework they would come back to life not once but twice, essentially for free.
As far as I can tell the only "nerfs" are that zombie needs to be gear 10 to get infinite revives (which can still be pretty squishy) and she doesn't take turns if she dies twice in a row, but will still revive if she keeps dying. Besides that she gets a heal and team revives, which are both buffs - except for the P3 HSTR team being harder to kill off but if you unlock the ability and leave it level 1 they only come back with 15% of zombie's health so they can die again easily.
Yes NS will do less damage in the raids, but they have been doing far above average in every raid as a faction and now they will just be closer to average. I wouldn't be surprised to still see them in the top 5 teams for HSTR once some of the players smarter than I figures out how to maximize the new kit. Outside of raids I think they will be a much more interesting faction to play with instead of just playing "how many times can I make paper zombie die before I run out of turns?" "Chewy88;c-1653285" wrote:
"DyloBin;c-1653281" wrote:
A "nerf" implies a character (or in this case, as some are saying, faction) is all-around worse in all areas. I don't see that here.
If your G7/G8 Zombie isn't capable of taking a hit or two and getting a turn afterwards, that sounds like a poor modding issue to me. So, this kit change doesn't remove Paper Zombie as a viable option. It just requires you to invest in mods to at least increase her speed. Which you probably should have been doing to begin with.
This change, however, does increase the value of a stronger Zombie (particularly in Arena) while leaving a well-modded Paper Zombie relatively unchanged. In other words, it simply makes a higher gear Zombie better in most cases than a low gear Zombie. Which is the entire point of the rework.
It doesn’t make the higher gear any better it only makes the lower levels worse. This team won’t be arena viable with this change and won’t make them any more effective in any other areas of the game this will just make zombie and ns less effective in the raid. And a nerf isn’t necessarily to one toon it can be to an entire faction or rewards or anything that takes the punch away from the players side by a developer. That is why this is a #NERF
I'm gonna need you to elaborate, Chewy.
In what universe does this make a low gear Zombie worse if you mod her correctly? I can see how it makes a Zombie with literally no investment at all worse, but if that's the Zombie you were using you don't deserve to be succeeding with it. Period.
And this definitely increases the value of a stronger Zombie. Sacrificial plays to revive other Nightsisters when your taunt has been removed is a net gain.- Ok how about some scenarios....
- zombie defeated once and now at -50% speed. She gets to her next turn, and if she took damage she is back to normal speed. If she didn't (if no stacks of bonds or something) she is still at -50%, so she pops unbreakable will. Now she cannot die so she will never reach -100% speed until after her next turn. Iirc we are talking p3 and traya has no aoe, so no one else can die to trigger undying sacrifice, avoiding questions on how that would be resolved. Ok, so nothing broken here, and if you pull it off perfectly you have extra long with unbreakable will.
- zombie defeated twice and at -100% speed, unable to take a turn even with 100% filled tm bar. She is stuck like this until undying sacrifice triggers by an ally dying, when her speed is bumped back up to normal and other such effects. BTW, the way this is worded it sounds like 2 revives are occurring, @CG_TopHat can you confirm this gives 2 stacks to ventress and daka? I.e. is it that the ally dies and is revived, and zombie also dies at the same time and is revived? Or is it that zombie dies in lieu of the ally? If the former, then this helps offset the decreased frequency of zombie deaths feeding stacks.
- zombie defeated once and now at -50% speed. She gets to her next turn, and if she took damage she is back to normal speed. If she didn't (if no stacks of bonds or something) she is still at -50%, so she pops unbreakable will. Now she cannot die so she will never reach -100% speed until after her next turn. Iirc we are talking p3 and traya has no aoe, so no one else can die to trigger undying sacrifice, avoiding questions on how that would be resolved. Ok, so nothing broken here, and if you pull it off perfectly you have extra long with unbreakable will.
- That core rule - investing more deeply in a character should always be better in terms of gameplay outcomes - is called a TENET, not tenant.
Thanks for the commentary because your formal statement of Undying Sacrifice was as clear as mud. "DyloBin;c-1653288" wrote:
"Chewy88;c-1653285" wrote:
"DyloBin;c-1653281" wrote:
A "nerf" implies a character (or in this case, as some are saying, faction) is all-around worse in all areas. I don't see that here.
If your G7/G8 Zombie isn't capable of taking a hit or two and getting a turn afterwards, that sounds like a poor modding issue to me. So, this kit change doesn't remove Paper Zombie as a viable option. It just requires you to invest in mods to at least increase her speed. Which you probably should have been doing to begin with.
This change, however, does increase the value of a stronger Zombie (particularly in Arena) while leaving a well-modded Paper Zombie relatively unchanged. In other words, it simply makes a higher gear Zombie better in most cases than a low gear Zombie. Which is the entire point of the rework.
It doesn’t make the higher gear any better it only makes the lower levels worse. This team won’t be arena viable with this change and won’t make them any more effective in any other areas of the game this will just make zombie and ns less effective in the raid. And a nerf isn’t necessarily to one toon it can be to an entire faction or rewards or anything that takes the punch away from the players side by a developer. That is why this is a #NERF
I'm gonna need you to elaborate, Chewy.
In what universe does this make a low gear Zombie worse if you mod her correctly? I can see how it makes a Zombie with literally no investment at all worse, but if that's the Zombie you were using you don't deserve to be succeeding with it. Period.
And this definitely increases the value of a stronger Zombie. Sacrificial plays to revive other Nightsisters when your taunt has been removed is a net gain.
What is lower gear exactly? Gear 10 is where zombie starts to become effective post rework and I’m using effective loosely. G10 is not low gear. Like I said this doesn’t allow for multiple strategies this purely hurts lower gear zombies and doesn’t actually make higher gear any better.
