How can this be a fair way for TW battles...? Allowing guilds that have 50m+ more GP to sandbag so they get an easier battle. Our match up this time means my 316m guild is facing a 360m guild that have 68 more GL's than us. I fail to see how this is a good match making system CG. Absolutely ridiculousEven if we put all our GL's on defence they would still have well over half of all the ones we have Stupid stupid stupid

"DarjeloSalas;c-2256931" wrote:"Zedstar;c-2256929" wrote:"UdalCuain;c-2256928" wrote:"Zedstar;c-2256926" wrote:"UdalCuain;c-2256921" wrote:It's not always sandbagging.How many defence slots you having to set? And have you definitely got the right guild? There's a few alliances out there that make tiny adjustments to the guild names. Defence slots is 22 and we went in with a full guild so they 100% sand bagged Again, it's not necessarily sandbagging. People have real lives. Everyone is really quick to accuse people of trying to cheat the system. I shouldn't have signed up for this TW as I have assignments due, but I did. We still are only going into TW with 40 as lots of guildies have stuff on this week. ok ok yes maybe there is a chance its not sand bagging but all routes point to it is, but yes i agree there is a very slim chance that it might not be.... but lets face it we all know it is No we don’t. Please stop with your “100% sandbagged” drivel.My guild (320M GP) are fighting this war with 41/50 signed up. There is nothing deliberate about it. In lots of high end guilds TW is optional, because people who sign up but can’t commit to being available to attack are a liability. Yes, the matchmaking sucks and needs addressed, but spouting blandishments about deliberate sandbagging when you know nothing of the sort is not helping the discussion.I just said it might not be sandbagging, but all fingers point to it.... if the match making system was changed to Guild GP and not signed up GP it would solve all the problems But yes it might not be sand bagging.... but sorry in this case i think it is but there is no proof either way so you might be right and so might i

"Zedstar;c-2256935" wrote:"DarjeloSalas;c-2256931" wrote:"Zedstar;c-2256929" wrote:"UdalCuain;c-2256928" wrote:"Zedstar;c-2256926" wrote:"UdalCuain;c-2256921" wrote:It's not always sandbagging.How many defence slots you having to set? And have you definitely got the right guild? There's a few alliances out there that make tiny adjustments to the guild names. Defence slots is 22 and we went in with a full guild so they 100% sand bagged Again, it's not necessarily sandbagging. People have real lives. Everyone is really quick to accuse people of trying to cheat the system. I shouldn't have signed up for this TW as I have assignments due, but I did. We still are only going into TW with 40 as lots of guildies have stuff on this week. ok ok yes maybe there is a chance its not sand bagging but all routes point to it is, but yes i agree there is a very slim chance that it might not be.... but lets face it we all know it is No we don’t. Please stop with your “100% sandbagged” drivel.My guild (320M GP) are fighting this war with 41/50 signed up. There is nothing deliberate about it. In lots of high end guilds TW is optional, because people who sign up but can’t commit to being available to attack are a liability. Yes, the matchmaking sucks and needs addressed, but spouting blandishments about deliberate sandbagging when you know nothing of the sort is not helping the discussion.I just said it might not be sandbagging, but all fingers point to it.... if the match making system was changed to Guild GP and not signed up GP it would solve all the problems But yes it might not be sand bagging.... but sorry in this case i think it is but there is no proof either way so you might be right and so might i What this comes down to is, do you want to discuss how they got there so you can try to bash another guild and keep calling it sandbagging or "all fingers point to" anything, or would you rather have a fruitful constructive conversation about ways to change things?------No it should not be guild GP, that punishes guilds that do not want to force players to join or kick someone out who just had a kid and may not eb able to play at a moment's notice for a while. Players have lives and this was a great addition to the game mode.

Me and my guild mates couldn't be more happy! What an absurd matchmaking!

"Zedstar;c-2256972" wrote:"Kyno;c-2256939" wrote:"Zedstar;c-2256935" wrote:"DarjeloSalas;c-2256931" wrote:"Zedstar;c-2256929" wrote:"UdalCuain;c-2256928" wrote:"Zedstar;c-2256926" wrote:"UdalCuain;c-2256921" wrote:It's not always sandbagging.How many defence slots you having to set? And have you definitely got the right guild? There's a few alliances out there that make tiny adjustments to the guild names. Defence slots is 22 and we went in with a full guild so they 100% sand bagged Again, it's not necessarily sandbagging. People have real lives. Everyone is really quick to accuse people of trying to cheat the system. I shouldn't have signed up for this TW as I have assignments due, but I did. We still are only going into TW with 40 as lots of guildies have stuff on this week. ok ok yes maybe there is a chance its not sand bagging but all routes point to it is, but yes i agree there is a very slim chance that it might not be.... but lets face it we all know it is No we don’t. Please stop with your “100% sandbagged” drivel.My guild (320M GP) are fighting this war with 41/50 signed up. There is nothing deliberate about it. In lots of high end guilds TW is optional, because people who sign up but can’t commit to being available to attack are a liability. Yes, the matchmaking sucks and needs addressed, but spouting blandishments about deliberate sandbagging when you know nothing of the sort is not helping the discussion.I just said it might not be sandbagging, but all fingers point to it.... if the match making system was changed to Guild GP and not signed up GP it would solve all the problems But yes it might not be sand bagging.... but sorry in this case i think it is but there is no proof either way so you might be right and so might i What this comes down to is, do you want to discuss how they got there so you can try to bash another guild and keep calling it sandbagging or "all fingers point to" anything, or would you rather have a fruitful constructive conversation about ways to change things?------No, it should not be guild GP, that punishes guilds that do not want to force players to join or kick someone out who just had a kid and may not eb able to play at a moment's notice for a while. Players have lives and this was a great addition to the game mode.We are all entitled to an opinion mate, i personally believe the match making system is ridiculously flawed and a lot of guilds do sand bag now whether the one we are facing are or whether lucky for them they had a lot of illness or players working etc etc who knows I have looked at the records and stats and its funny how nearly all of their last 7 TW; s there has only been 22 defence slots... seems strange that a guild of 360m would acceptable around 6/7 player who regularly sit out of tw battles, but hey I have no proof they are sand bagging or not the same as you have no evidence to say they are or not..... that’s why in my opinion they are sand bagging But the bottom line is the match making and CG need to fix it so that sand bagging isn't an option guilds can use to cheat as everyone knows that this does happen in the game and that is fact.And yes im very happy to dissus with anyone on how we can make TW match making better for all guilds, looking at how many posts there are just this year on the subject says that it is something CG should be looking to fix asap Ok, so you want to talk about how they get there... ok, sounds good.They dint sand bag, some people have lives and other things that they feel are more important than a game, and luckily they are in an understanding guild that doesnt require them to be there. It is a wonderful part of the game mode and I am more than happy that it exists and it should continue to be there.You have absolutely no proof that any guild you face does anything nefarious, so why try to call them out? Did you lose each of those matches?It's not strange at all that any guild let's people sit out, personally in my 330M GP guild we rarely go into TW with more than 46 players. We had one of our hardest matches when we went in at 40. We regularly have good matches with much back and forth each time. Is it possible your guild is just not built to handle TW?

"Zedstar;c-2256935" wrote:"DarjeloSalas;c-2256931" wrote:"Zedstar;c-2256929" wrote:"UdalCuain;c-2256928" wrote:"Zedstar;c-2256926" wrote:"UdalCuain;c-2256921" wrote:It's not always sandbagging.How many defence slots you having to set? And have you definitely got the right guild? There's a few alliances out there that make tiny adjustments to the guild names. Defence slots is 22 and we went in with a full guild so they 100% sand bagged Again, it's not necessarily sandbagging. People have real lives. Everyone is really quick to accuse people of trying to cheat the system. I shouldn't have signed up for this TW as I have assignments due, but I did. We still are only going into TW with 40 as lots of guildies have stuff on this week. ok ok yes maybe there is a chance its not sand bagging but all routes point to it is, but yes i agree there is a very slim chance that it might not be.... but lets face it we all know it is No we don’t. Please stop with your “100% sandbagged” drivel.My guild (320M GP) are fighting this war with 41/50 signed up. There is nothing deliberate about it. In lots of high end guilds TW is optional, because people who sign up but can’t commit to being available to attack are a liability. Yes, the matchmaking sucks and needs addressed, but spouting blandishments about deliberate sandbagging when you know nothing of the sort is not helping the discussion.I just said it might not be sandbagging, but all fingers point to it.... No, they don't. I've experienced three 310+ Million GP guilds and in all of them participation was voluntary but once you joined you were required to do your best to win. We often only have 42-45 members join. Your opponents most likely have similar rules and often go in short handed. if the match making system was changed to Guild GP and not signed up GP it would solve all the problemsNo, it won't. In the early days guilds were matched by total GP. It was changed for a reason.

TW Sand Bagging/Match making system seriously broken

zedstar007
New Spectator
4 years ago
So are all you guys saying that sand bagging never happens then ? and the problems are all down to CG's flawed matching system and not that some guilds are cheating ?

Its funny cos everyone i speak to off this forum think that sand bagging happens all the time...

Maybe im wrong then, maybe im right who knows...
We had someone join us a few months ago who said their previous guild did it on every TW match and was shocked when i told him we didn't do it. His reply was " All the big guilds are doing it these days"

But anyway we can go round and round and round on this subject... you guys have your views and i have mine

I'm interest to learn how your views on how would could the match making system to make it better and fairer ??
zedstar007
New Spectator
4 years ago
"DarjeloSalas;c-2257008" wrote:
Not saying it never happens, but both me and Kyno - and dozens of other guilds if you care to look at guild recruitment - are flat out telling you that TW signup is optional in many of the big guilds.

And taking the word of “everyone you speak to” is not worth anything. I’ve never spoken to anyone that is in / was in / knows of any guild that intentionally sandbags. How much value do you place in that statement?

The solution to the matchmaking issue is so simple, and has been stated many times:

Match on signed up GP AND # of signed up players. It’s that simple.

The only drawback, which is worth mentioning, is what happens if the absolute top GP guild in the game signs up with 50/50, and the next 19 GP guilds all have 44/50 signup? Somebody’s getting a bad match up.

"And taking the word of “everyone you speak to” is not worth anything. I’ve never spoken to anyone that is in / was in / knows of any guild that intentionally sandbags. How much value do you place in that statement?"

Now i was not saying i was taking the word of them and nor was i saying i put much value in that statement i was just telling you that as someone who has played the game since first released i know a lot and speak to a lot of other players across discord servers, channels and other forums and there is a lot of people that agree with me on the fact sand bagging happens a lot of the time.... that is all I’m telling you.
Whether i believe them or do not believe them is a whole different thing, but where there is smoke, there is normally fire.
I am not disbelieving you on TW is optional in a fair number of guilds, its optional in my guild but we normally have full sign up for it.
But anyway, it is clear that you and Kyno have your views and i have mine, and it’s something that can never be proven 100% either way.

I just hope that one of the changes coming to the game soon is a fix for the match making system so that it can be fairer and so that sand bagging isn't possible then there will be no argument or disagreement on the subject
Waquira
4 years ago
"Zedstar;c-2257005" wrote:
So are all you guys saying that sand bagging never happens then ?

If that's how you read the comments maybe it's time to give your logic the yearly service.
Julian_Sixty_Si
4 years ago
"UdalCuain;c-2256928" wrote:
"Zedstar;c-2256926" wrote:

"UdalCuain;c-2256921" wrote:
It's not always sandbagging.

How many defence slots you having to set? And have you definitely got the right guild? There's a few alliances out there that make tiny adjustments to the guild names.

Defence slots is 22 and we went in with a full guild so they 100% sand bagged

Again, it's not necessarily sandbagging. People have real lives. Everyone is really quick to accuse people of trying to cheat the system. I shouldn't have signed up for this TW as I have assignments due, but I did. We still are only going into TW with 40 as lots of guildies have stuff on this week.

Looks balanced on the GP front, going of average GP they have 316.8m GP signed up.

To the other guild does it matter whether the egregious imbalance is intentional or not. They are no less screwed because jears were in the right place. The fact it can happen unintentionally is a direct and immediate path to abuse as is the case with all exploits.

Why dont they just go straight across guild GP ?? Then we wont have this problem and if you lose then its your fault for having a crappy quality GP. Lets put the responsibilty back on the players to conduct quality competition not some kind of regulation that produces the opposite of the desired result.
ChristophIV
Hero+
4 years ago
"Julian_Sixty_Six;c-2257202" wrote:
"UdalCuain;c-2256928" wrote:
"Zedstar;c-2256926" wrote:

"UdalCuain;c-2256921" wrote:
It's not always sandbagging.

How many defence slots you having to set? And have you definitely got the right guild? There's a few alliances out there that make tiny adjustments to the guild names.

Defence slots is 22 and we went in with a full guild so they 100% sand bagged

Again, it's not necessarily sandbagging. People have real lives. Everyone is really quick to accuse people of trying to cheat the system. I shouldn't have signed up for this TW as I have assignments due, but I did. We still are only going into TW with 40 as lots of guildies have stuff on this week.

Looks balanced on the GP front, going of average GP they have 316.8m GP signed up.

To the other guild does it matter whether the egregious imbalance is intentional or not. They are no less screwed because jears were in the right place. The fact it can happen unintentionally is a direct and immediate path to abuse as is the case with all exploits.

Why dont they just go straight across guild GP ?? Then we wont have this problem and if you lose then its your fault for having a crappy quality GP. Lets put the responsibilty back on the players to conduct quality competition not some kind of regulation that produces the opposite of the desired result.

Whole guild GP doesn't work. Then you end up with the same problem. If two guilds both with 300m GP face each other, one with 40 signed up and the other with 50, it's still a massive imbalance.

The most reasonable solution is to keep signed up GP, and incorporate the numbers signed up into matchmaking too. That way the average player GP will be equal for both guilds.
David64742
4 years ago
"DarjeloSalas;c-2256947" wrote:
"Wargoat;c-2256938" wrote:
I agree, there should be no join option. The entire guild should be placed in tw.

Hard disagree.

People have lives outside of this game.

A guild shouldn’t be punished if members have work commitments / vacation / family events / ill health.

I agree that guilds shouldn’t be “punished” for members needing to sit out wars. However, the current system punishes guilds for having full participation in TWs, which seems like a very perverse incentive structure. If the system has to favor one type of guild over another, it should favor the guild that gets 50 people signed up, IMO.
NyKynoe
4 years ago
"Gorgus;c-2257212" wrote:
"DarjeloSalas;c-2256947" wrote:
"Wargoat;c-2256938" wrote:
I agree, there should be no join option. The entire guild should be placed in tw.

Hard disagree.

People have lives outside of this game.

A guild shouldn’t be punished if members have work commitments / vacation / family events / ill health.

I agree that guilds shouldn’t be “punished” for members needing to sit out wars. However, the current system punishes guilds for having full participation in TWs, which seems like a very perverse incentive structure. If the system has to favor one type of guild over another, it should favor the guild that gets 50 people signed up, IMO.

That's not true, many guilds dont face this issue, when going in full, based on the number of complaints about this.

Many of the times this comes up, it's often not a full guild either.

It is or is not favoring guilds has nothing to do with thier count of the guild on the "losing side" of the mismatch.
Julian_Sixty_Si
4 years ago
"UdalCuain;c-2257205" wrote:
"Julian_Sixty_Six;c-2257202" wrote:
"UdalCuain;c-2256928" wrote:
"Zedstar;c-2256926" wrote:

"UdalCuain;c-2256921" wrote:
It's not always sandbagging.

How many defence slots you having to set? And have you definitely got the right guild? There's a few alliances out there that make tiny adjustments to the guild names.

Defence slots is 22 and we went in with a full guild so they 100% sand bagged

Again, it's not necessarily sandbagging. People have real lives. Everyone is really quick to accuse people of trying to cheat the system. I shouldn't have signed up for this TW as I have assignments due, but I did. We still are only going into TW with 40 as lots of guildies have stuff on this week.

Looks balanced on the GP front, going of average GP they have 316.8m GP signed up.

To the other guild does it matter whether the egregious imbalance is intentional or not. They are no less screwed because jears were in the right place. The fact it can happen unintentionally is a direct and immediate path to abuse as is the case with all exploits.

Why dont they just go straight across guild GP ?? Then we wont have this problem and if you lose then its your fault for having a crappy quality GP. Lets put the responsibilty back on the players to conduct quality competition not some kind of regulation that produces the opposite of the desired result.

Whole guild GP doesn't work. Then you end up with the same problem. If two guilds both with 300m GP face each other, one with 40 signed up and the other with 50, it's still a massive imbalance.

The most reasonable solution is to keep signed up GP, and incorporate the numbers signed up into matchmaking too. That way the average player GP will be equal for both guilds.

Those are all valid points, I'm suggesting that maybe the first algorithm period is total guild GP. After you get a close match on that, then let the sign up dynamic work itself out. There isn't a scenario where a 164m GP like mine will beat a 200m GP guild like the one we're hopelessly fighting today. 10 GL's to our 3. Do people really believe that the 200m guild is going to be nice and send its worst 30 to fight our 35?

This is the issue. Guilds that are in totally different realities are being matched.
aviv_hass
New Spectator
4 years ago
We too got the harper end of possuble sandbagging and bad matchmaking this TW- 96GLs against ours 26.
Even if we lower their number of GLs by the same factor of getting their gp to be compare to ours, we're taking about 77 GLs against our 23...
CCyrilS
4 years ago
"Gorgus;c-2257868" wrote:
"DarjeloSalas;c-2257809" wrote:
I don’t think that’s what Kyno is talking about.

I think he means that guilds who go in with, say, 43 signed up are not guaranteed to get a weaker guild with 50 signed up. It’s perfectly possible they get a similarly powered guild who also have 43 signed up, or a more powerful guild with 38 signed up.

Agreed. That’s possible. It remains my view that going in with 50/50 is, on average, a disadvantage. Here’s why. Let’s stipulate that there are three possibilities for any guild in their matchup:

1. The other guild has more participants, which is usually an advantage
2. The other guild has the same or very similar number of participants, which will tend to create the most even matchups
3. The other guild has fewer participants, which is usually a disadvantage

If my guild goes in with 37 participants, options 1, 2, or 3 are possible. If my guild goes in with 50 participants, only 2 and 3 are possible.

we just won our 6th in a row with 48 signed up this last time (46+ is typical).

We found it helps to get good.