The recent addition of neurodiversity is bad

To add more to this feedback;

Neurodiversity should work on system of its own. Such system would allow neurodiversity for Sims while not taking any trait slot. I can imagine this system would be categorized next to likes and dislikes and would work similarly; we could pick any "quirk" for the sim, like the social awkardness (which is supposed to represent social anxiety) or something that would allow us represent other ND related quirks (for example, there could be quick that would affect the attention of sims). We could further customize each quirk's settings; in case of social awkardness, we could decide the intensity or around who would this particular sim feal socially awkard. 

@PatrickClSim3LowThere seems to be a bit of misunderstanding going around, particularly due to the decision to name it 'awkwardness' instead of 'anxiety'. So just to be clear, this doesn't 'add neurodiversity'. Rather than an attempt to represent the full spectrum of neurodiversity, it's representation of a specific condition - social anxiety disorder. 

@ianhamilt0nIn the interview, they specifically call this neurodiversity representation, which it's not. Like you said, it's social anxiety.

Neurodiversity specifically applies to people whose brains work differently than the general population due to differing brain structures/wiring - ASD, ADHD, Dyslexia, etc. It is not a mental health disorder. Some do include mental health disorders under the neurodiversity umbrella, but there's some controversy about that. Where's the line between brains working differently at birth versus differing later due to genetic risks/environment?

This is why they need to be very, very specific and careful about using the words "neurodiverse", "mental health" and "awkward" here. And they most certainly weren't.

It in fact doesn't. There aren't two separate boxes with neurodiverse over here and neurotypical over there. Instead, it refers to an arbitrary point on the bell curve of human variance. A bell curve that has more typical towards the more populated centre and more diverse towards the less populated edges. 

And more specifically, it refers to an arbitrary threshold of what sits outside what is regarded as 'normal' by both society and the systems that our society is made of. 

Social anxiety disorder is a disabling disorder of brain function that directly impacts cognition, from working memory to concentration to ability to control obsessive thoughts. This sits outside society's arbitrary view of 'normal', therefore neurodiversity applies. My social anxiety disorder brain certainly functions outside of the middle of that bell curve. It doesn't seem any different to me than my ADHD brain or my seasonal affective disorder brain, it's all just part of the spectrum of human cognitive variance. 

Telling the designer who identifies as neurodiverse (see interview) that she is in fact not neurodiverse really isn't cool, especially when it relates to an arbitrarily defined label like that. 

And while I agree that had it been called social anxiety instead of social awkwardness then there would have been less misunderstanding, we don't know what the reasons for the labelling are. There might even totally compelling reasons for all we know. 

@ianhamilt0n , @PatrickClSim3Low , @DellaLuna48 , @ValFreya13 , I think that social anxiety and social awkwardness are 2 different things that can overlap.  Social anxiety comes from inside the person (but can be affected by things from outside a person) while social awkwardness is more like a judgment that others can have on a person (Such as a person who often thinks differently about something and voices their thoughts on that topic could be considered an odd person because of those thoughts , or a person might do certain actions that are considered odd by others.  This person will often not be received well by others (which can later lead to them developing social anxiety, but not necessarily).  You can be socially adept and have great social anxiety, but you can also be socially awkward but have little or no anxiety about it.  Most will fall somewhere in between. 

Many neurodivergent people have social anxiety because of repeated failed interactions, but some are just anxious about being social even if they are well received by others. Many Autistic people are very introverted, but there are some extraverted Autistic people as well. 

In the game, if there was a difference between the two, it would be something like If your Sim has social anxiety, then they would have an anxious moodlet before they even interact with others.  Social awkwardness, on the other hand would only have an embarrassed moodlet after the social interaction failed. 

@ValFreya13 , well, sometimes if you go to a small enough school the whole class can hate one student for being different, but that level of realism is a bit much in a game.  So, I  agree that it does seem excessive.  Especially with family or with friends.  Most people you are close with in real life are used to you acting different than most people, and if they are family, they very well might be neurodivergent too! 😊  That is how it is in my family, anyway. 😄

@ianhamilt0n  That's why I said it's not without controversy, based on the history of the word itself.

The word "neurodiversity" was coined in 1998 by Sociologist Judy Singer, as a descriptive word for those with ASD. It was specifically used to destigmatize Autism as something that had to be cured, purely because someone had it. Later, those with ADHD, Dyslexia, Intellectual Disabilities, etc. were also included under the umbrella - controversially. Much much later, the mental health disorders were added too - much much more controversially.

The controversy is that some within the ASD advocacy community feel all these other disorders are coopting and watering down the ASD movement. You're right - the word "neurodiversity" technically describes anyone that falls on either end of that bell curve, including me (Bipolar & ADHD here). But it was originally an advocacy term to promote the social model of support for those with ASD, versus trying to cure them. People with ASD have whole organizations dedicated to making sure they don't exist, like Autism Speaks. They face an extra set of advocacy barriers than those with other differing brains - active, organized attempts at erasure.

All of us who are technically under the neurodiverse umbrella have a ton of challenges, and they all need addressing. The thing is, with mental health disorders, many people with them want them to be cured - in fact, actively advocate for cures. But under that umbrella, there's one specific group that has people trying to "cure" them against their will, and that's those with ASD. Their advocacy barriers go beyond trying to find ways to exist in a neurotypical society. And when you have people fighting to not be seen as someone to be cured, mixed in with people wanting to be cured, the message gets lost.

Which is why it can get controversial when it's used outside of the ASD advocacy community.

As far as the game goes, the main question is, what population do most people think of when they hear the word "neurodiverse"? Do they think of those with depression, or bipolar, or anxiety disorders? Or do they think of those with Autism Spectrum Disorder?

In light of all this, of who neurodiversity was originally coined for and who the general population thinks of when they hear it, can you see the issue of calling the "Socially Awkward" trait a neurodiverse trait? A trait also stereotypically associated with ASD? And then making that trait something the sim has to overcome, just for anyone to interact with them positively?

I love the idea of the Socially Awkward trait (I don't have the pack). Although they probably need to tone down the negative repercussions, it's a realistic trait to have in the game. My problem is tying it to neurodiversity. There's a history that wasn't researched and a community that wasn't spoken to. And unless EA is willing to use the same care they put into orientations and pronouns, they need step back from it.

@DellaLuna48while it's understandable that some people may come to that conclusion based on the fact that the thesis it was published in was around autism, the idea that it was coined as a descriptive word for ASD is actually untrue.

Here's what Judy Singer had to say about it. This is from the introduction she added to a re-publish of the thesis, the republished version is called "neurodiversity: the birth of an idea" and came out in 2016 -

"This word Neurodiversity did not come out of the blue, but was the culmination of my academic research and a lifetime of personal experiences of exclusion and invalidation as a person struggling in a family affected by a “hidden disability” that neither we nor society recognised for what it was. Nevertheless, we sure knew how to shield ourselves from the critical neurotypical “gaze”, and had developed plenty of strategies to try to pass for normal. While my focus was on AS, I considered that the scope of neurodiversity was far broader. It could encompass the near-absurdist splinterings of the then DSM IV, even perhaps gender identity and sexual preference, surely properties of the mind."

..DSM IV of course covering everything from autism to ADHD to anxiety, and everything in-between; including mental health.

And this is from the opening of the 1998 thesis itself -

"As new identities, alliances and movements form and re-form themselves, there are signs everywhere that we are beginning to divide ourselves not only along the familiar lines of ethnicity, class, gender, and disability, but according to something new: differences in “kinds of minds”. People with all kinds of marginal “disabilities” like ADD and dyslexia are beginning to form communities and produce texts that examine the ways that they have been misunderstood and mistreated. Educational theories have had to adapt to the forces of individuation, and are beginning to cater to different cognitive styles and “multiple intelligences”. All kinds of medical and educational specialists, self-advocacy and support groups are springing up, based on these “neurological” differences."

There really is no "later", was explicitly coined to mean everything from the start, you can't really get any clearer evidence for that than her stating it was envisaged as encompassing the full spread of DSM IV. it was never meant to be ASD alone.

IMO the main issue is it being called "social awkwardness" when it is in fact explicitly social anxiety disorder.

And far from it being a community not spoken to, it was designed by someone who has social anxiety disorder and with the input of others who also do.

Would your feelings about it be any different if it was named accurately, i.e. social anxiety rather than social awkwardness?