Forum Discussion
"Writin_Reg;c-16218548" wrote:
"Erpe;c-16218511" wrote:
"Writin_Reg;c-16218508" wrote:
"Erpe;c-16218295" wrote:
@Deshong04 We mainly agree. But what I usually have a problem with in all such discussions is:
1. Most simmers stubbornly thinks that EA and Maxis just make the games at random and almost on purpose try to make the games bad. I don’t at all agree with this.
2. In my opinion EA makes the games just to earn money and EA tells Maxis who the target group is, what the budget is and what EA thinks is important to get high sales numbers for as little money as possible. The games aren’t targeted at experienced simmers at all and they are only meant to be played rarely and shortly just like children and young teens usually do. EA focuses on SPs because they are cheap to make and sell best because young simmers more easily can persuade their parents to let them have them.
So no. I don’t have high expectations for TS5 either because TS5 will have the same target group and likely focus even more on SPs than TS4 has done.
BULL!
Why? Don’t you agree that TS4 focuses more on SPs than the previous games ever did? And less on EPs?
Have you seen any simmers ask for that? Or am I right that EA made that change on its own just because SPs are so cheap to make and sell so surprisingly well?
Yes I have seen simmers ask repeatedly since Sims 2 and we first got stuff packs to have some animated objects in them and make them even cheaper priced. In sims 3 - not everyone could afford the high prices of the Sims 3 store - and did not like using CC in their game so their only content came from eps and sps - only people with less money to spend on gaming also could not afford 20 dollars for a stuff pack with nothing but a few items - none of which added any game play in most packs. Many of these same simmers are still here. Many of these simmers can sometimes afford a cheaper 10 dollar stuff pack - and with having each one contain new game play - the sps do expand their games - give them new stuff - when many of these same simmer cannot buy eps at 40 bucks a pop (same price most were usually in Sims 3 too) so at least they can add to their games now and not just be stuck with a base game.
So yes for many years some players did ask for them and now they got what they asked for - stuff packs they can afford that gives them some new game play. As someone who buys everything for sims - I can still be very happy for simmers who by no fault of their own can't be like me, and now they have a chance to actually get some game play - and more often than every before - at a price they can sometimes afford. How can you want to deny these players - by demanding they cut down on sps or get rid of them or demand they stop putting game play in an sp because you would rather all that be in more eps a year? Why so these people I am talking about get no new game play at all.
You have a choice to buy or not buy what ever from the way you talk all the time- not every one has your advantage. Think outside your own box and yourself. I am very glad we have 10 dollar stuff packs with added game play. Pardon me for loving things that make others happy too.
Hey if you don't like sps - don't buy them - but don't deny folks finally getting something they have been begging for - for over 10 years.
Well. I haven’t seen people ask for more SPs. Only for more EPs and here in Denmark nobody are so poor that they can’t afford an EP if they want it (with the exception of children who still live with their parents). I know that the differences between rich and poor are bigger in the US. But I wouldn’t have expected them to be that big anyway :("Deshong04;c-16218976" wrote:
"Erpe;c-16218295" wrote:
@Deshong04 We mainly agree. But what I usually have a problem with in all such discussions is:
1. Most simmers stubbornly thinks that EA and Maxis just make the games at random and almost on purpose try to make the games bad. I don’t at all agree with this.
2. In my opinion EA makes the games just to earn money and EA tells Maxis who the target group is, what the budget is and what EA thinks is important to get high sales numbers for as little money as possible. The games aren’t targeted at experienced simmers at all and they are only meant to be played rarely and shortly just like children and young teens usually do. EA focuses on SPs because they are cheap to make and sell best because young simmers more easily can persuade their parents to let them have them.
So no. I don’t have high expectations for TS5 either because TS5 will have the same target group and likely focus even more on SPs than TS4 has done.
1. I think EA just like some other companies know how to work the system to their benefit while taking an advantage of the consumers who choose to buy their product(s) that is not worth the asking price because of its low quality or whatever else ill business practices. But that's the consumers fault for allowing it. And the complaints mean nothing when they still support it because all a company needs is to continue to make a profit and who cares what they want? Just throw them a bone here and there and let them think the company cares. Some of them won't know the difference.
2. Stuff packs are a nice addition because it adds more variety of objects in-game and usually has unique themes as usually is the case also in EP's. The option of having more stuff is not a bad thing. Especially, for those who love to build or interior design but is great for anyone who wants a bigger selection than what the base game and expansion packs offers.
TS4 issues has nothing to do with stuff packs. It has everything to do with labeling a game to intentionally mislead people into thinking that it is a continuous sequel of TS1, TS2 and TS3 that worked so hard to continue that growing, improved and advanced foundation. When in fact, TS4 is more of a reboot that lost its roots as The Sims and in the genre it is supposed to represent as a people/life simulator where a sandbox experience remains adamant in the main PC series.
Stuff packs were introduced in TS2 as a Christmas stuff pack which also had just a little gameplay with Father Christmas. Until then EA hadn’t believed that SPs would sell at all and the first SP was just an experiment. It wasn’t even copy protected like all other expansions because EA thought that it would at most sell a little in the month before Christmas. But to EA’s huge surprise it sold extremely well.
So EA decided to repeat the experiment about Easter and again released a SP as an experiment and without copy protection to see if it would sell at all when it wasn’t even Christmas. It sure did!
So after that SPs were released on a regular basis and from now on always with copy protection!
I never liked the high sales numbers for SPs because I knew that those high sales numbers would mean that EA would focus more on stuff and less on the gameplay that I wanted instead. EA attempted to sell stuff instead through the Sims 3 store. But it only made EA realize that stuff sell better in SPs than it sells when it is sold as single items.
So we see the result for TS4 which was the first big Sims game that mainly concentrate on SPs and to an extent where EA decided to make the EPs smaller and to replace half of the EPs with GPs. Grant’s remarks about the big expansions now out of the way shows that the next EP now is so far out in the future that they don’t even really start working on it yet.
Read his blog on http://hyperbolegames.com/blog/journal-10282017 btw. It shows that the developers play very different games when they only play for fun ;)"Writin_Reg;c-16219025" wrote:
"Erpe;c-16219012" wrote:
"Deshong04;c-16218976" wrote:
"Erpe;c-16218295" wrote:
@Deshong04 We mainly agree. But what I usually have a problem with in all such discussions is:
1. Most simmers stubbornly thinks that EA and Maxis just make the games at random and almost on purpose try to make the games bad. I don’t at all agree with this.
2. In my opinion EA makes the games just to earn money and EA tells Maxis who the target group is, what the budget is and what EA thinks is important to get high sales numbers for as little money as possible. The games aren’t targeted at experienced simmers at all and they are only meant to be played rarely and shortly just like children and young teens usually do. EA focuses on SPs because they are cheap to make and sell best because young simmers more easily can persuade their parents to let them have them.
So no. I don’t have high expectations for TS5 either because TS5 will have the same target group and likely focus even more on SPs than TS4 has done.
1. I think EA just like some other companies know how to work the system to their benefit while taking an advantage of the consumers who choose to buy their product(s) that is not worth the asking price because of its low quality or whatever else ill business practices. But that's the consumers fault for allowing it. And the complaints mean nothing when they still support it because all a company needs is to continue to make a profit and who cares what they want? Just throw them a bone here and there and let them think the company cares. Some of them won't know the difference.
2. Stuff packs are a nice addition because it adds more variety of objects in-game and usually has unique themes as usually is the case also in EP's. The option of having more stuff is not a bad thing. Especially, for those who love to build or interior design but is great for anyone who wants a bigger selection than what the base game and expansion packs offers.
TS4 issues has nothing to do with stuff packs. It has everything to do with labeling a game to intentionally mislead people into thinking that it is a continuous sequel of TS1, TS2 and TS3 that worked so hard to continue that growing, improved and advanced foundation. When in fact, TS4 is more of a reboot that lost its roots as The Sims and in the genre it is supposed to represent as a people/life simulator where a sandbox experience remains adamant in the main PC series.
Stuff packs were introduced in TS2 as a Christmas stuff pack which also had just a little gameplay with Father Christmas. Until then EA hadn’t believed that SPs would sell at all and the first SP was just an experiment. It wasn’t even copy protected like all other expansions because EA thought that it would at most sell a little in the month before Christmas. But to EA’s huge surprise it sold extremely well.
So EA decided to repeat the experiment about Easter and again released a SP as an experiment and without copy protection to see if it would sell at all when it wasn’t even Christmas. It sure did!
So after that SPs were released on a regular basis and from now on always with copy protection!
I never liked the high sales numbers for SPs because I knew that those high sales numbers would mean that EA would focus more on stuff and less on the gameplay that I wanted instead. EA attempted to sell stuff instead through the Sims 3 store. But it only made EA realize that stuff sell better in SPs than it sells when it is sold as single items.
So we see the result for TS4 which was the first big Sims game that mainly concentrate on SPs and to an extent where EA decided to make the EPs smaller and to replace half of the EPs with GPs. Grant’s remarks about the big expansions now out of the way shows that the next EP now is so far out in the future that they don’t even really start working on it yet.
Read his blog on http://hyperbolegames.com/blog/journal-10282017 btw. It shows that the developers play very different games when they only play for fun ;)
Are you sure you played the Sims 2?There was no Easter stuff pack in Sims 2.
I just didn’t remember the names of SPs because they don’t interest me very much and I wrote the above in the middle of the night where I didn’t want to look up the SP’s real names. So I just described the 2 SPs as I remember them. But their real names were:
Holiday Party Pack (released on November 17, 2005 more than a year after the basegame (which was released on September 14, 2004) and with a few NPCs and a little gameplay)
Family Fun Stuff (released on April 13, 2006. Easter Sunday was April 16, 2006 and this SP like the following had no gameplay at all)
Those 2 SPs were (as I wrote) experiments and released without copy protection. But their sales numbers alas were so unexpectedly high that EA decided to release much more stuff and SPs and not focus just on new gameplay like EA had done earlier. I would therefore wish that EA never had done those experiments such that the Sims games still would be mainly about gameplay instead of stuff."Writin_Reg;c-16222093" wrote:
"Deshong04;c-16222051" wrote:
"Writin_Reg;c-16221495" wrote:
They did. One at Maxis in Redwood City and one in Salt Lake City EA studios. They also had the store team at Salt Lake City Studios.
Personally I think the issue stems from the Smart Technology engine - that is the issue - made for multi-tasking, emotions, walk styles, and communicating between characters. There sounds to me there is little in this game engine that focuses on anything else we need our sims to do - so it is no wonder when we want sims to actually do something besides those things above - it all has to be made from scratch.
Okay, thanks."Erpe;c-16221590" wrote:
Yes Grant is a producer who just is in charge of the production and coordinates things. So in the beginning it sounds correct that he can’t do much because things just are chaos and experiments about inventing a new technology.
Maxis only has two studios left after EA closed both the Maxis studio in Emeryville (who made Spore and Darkspore) and the Maxis studio in Salt Lake City who made 4 EPs for TS3. So now Maxis only has the studio in Redwood (who makes the PC version of TS4) and the studio in Helsinki (who makes SimCity BuildIt, the console version of TS4 and maybe also most of the work on the Sims Mobile).
But to say that this is the reason why TS4 only gets one EP a year is to turn things around because EA didn’t “lose” the studios in Emeryville and Salt Lake. EA deliberately chose to close those studios because EA didn’t want to release 2 EPs a year anymore! The reason must be that EA didn’t think that it would be a profitable strategy anymore. So EA planned to release GPs as half priced “EPs” instead of one of the full priced EPs and apparently the GPs sell better than EPs because EA has now chosen to release twice as many GPs a year compared to the original strategy which EA used in the beginning.
So no! I don’t accept the idea that EPs are more difficult to make for TS4 than they were for TS2 and TS3 ;) That is in no way the reason why EA chose to close the studio in Salt Lake! EA just don’t want to release more yearly expansions than EA does now because then EA would expect sales numbers to go down too much. There is a limit to how much the average simmer will spend on the game each year!
So EA just gives Maxis more time to make each EA or let Maxis use fewer developers on making the EPs - and probably especially in the first months after each release of an EP.
I said the reason why I think TS4 is getting one EP a year is because of the limiting game engine. If every time they want to add something major, the case seems to be they have to first rewrite some things in order for it to be possible then incorporate the EP. But the game engine should already be what the game needs. When it comes to technology, TS4 already started out with something incapable of real innovation and was never meant to be a life simulator in the first place.
You can believe whatever you want and I'm going to come to my own conclusions.
Deshong her some reading for you - here is an article popular Mechanics mag did on the Sims 4 engine - as you can see it is as I described.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/culture/gaming/a10698/inside-the-mind-of-the-sims-4-16906802/
And in comparison - here is what was involved in the making of the Sims 2 and it's engine. And why we feel they went in a totally wrong direction for the Sims 4. This design was pretty much the same for Sims 3, just more enhanced as they used an enhanced version of the same engine Sims 2 had. Sims 4 they went off the beaten path totally with the brand new smart technology engine.
http://aigamedev.com/open/highlights/the-sims-ai/
The first link points to a source from even before the Sims 4 basegame was finished and it says that the game engine is more advanced because other characters than those controlled by the player now are more intelligent. This is probably correct and even the player controlled characters now can ignore us and act on their own.
But the price for those “improvements” was IMO way too high because it came on the cost of the open world and I don’t want the sims that are under my control to ignore me anyway. If we then consider the reduced content in both the basegame and in all the expansions then there is no doubt in my mind that the extended autonomy of the sims came for a way too high price. Therefore I just gave up on TS4 after only having bought the first GP and the first EP because I knew that later expansions never would be able to solve the problems that I had with this version of the game.
We don’t know what EA will focus on instead in the next version (TS5). But I don’t believe that EA once more will focus on more autonomy for such a huge cost. So at least I don’t think that TS5 can become worse than TS4 and we are allowed to hope ;)- That's odd - I don't get the ads - I go straight to the Magazine - Popular Mechanics.
Actually they (mostly Ben Bell) did talk indepth about that engine when they first introduced the Sims 3 - Ben Bell did a 4 or 5 part discussion about it and all the rebuilding and updating it required for the engine (as they also showed parts of the game - the CAS, THE CASt etc). But it was basically rebuilt from the ground up by the people they got the original engine from for Sims 2. There was some problems though because apparently the builders had said they were adding things to the engine that never got done and it left the developers having to work around holes and loose end in the engine and reworking it themselves. A lot of us used to talk about it off and on the first couple of years - but it was one of the factors why rotational play was an issue in Sims 3 and hadn't been an issue in Sims 2.
EA has never said why they closed those studios - but if you look at those and compare them to most of EA's other studios you can see how old and lacking in open space they are. I just assume they closed them for more spacious and some of the newer studios and updated studios they have. For instance Maxis has more floors and more spacious areas at Redwood than they had previously. Now and then they have even posted pictures when they got new studio space.
EA had a lot of work done on the Pop Cap studios and Campus. They built a new studio I believe it's in Norway or Sweden and they already have one in Stockholm. EA often discards older, smaller studios and either builds new modern and bigger studios or additions to better locations. They are known for shutting down cramped and older studios - it is nothing new for EA.
Salt Lake City and Emeryville - looked outdated from pictures I have seen so I would guess that may have been something to do with those being closed. Of course they haven't said - so who knows.
Example - this is one of EA's campuses:
http://www.webcor.com/projects/ea-campus/?view=all
Heree's the Austin Campus:
https://www.ea.com/news/tour-the-ea-austin-studio
Here's Redwood City Campus - where Maxis is:
https://www.ea.com/careers/careers-overview/redwood-shores
They have many more campuses and studios here, Canada and around the world. - catloverplayerSeasoned AceI think I read that Grant said he was also over Gamepacks.
"Cinebar;c-16231525" wrote:
"Erpe;c-16225340" wrote:
@Deshong04 You are too difficult to quote because I even have to read your whole message just to find out what you wrote and what I wrote. So I will try in my own way:Duh...TS4 has less resources than TS3. All I asked was didn't TS3 have two different EP teams yet you go on putting words in my mouth I never even said. You just been assuming what I said and what I mean than what I'm actually saying.
I'm not sure if TS2 or TS1 had two EP teams but if not they still had for the most part two EP's a year. If TS3 was the only Sims game in the series to have two teams, then I personally take that to mean because it needed a longer development because of what the game engine/base game introduced.
TS4 started out as TSOlympus so yeah duh it's resources are on a much smaller scale than the previous game.
Again you are guessing and assuming. Yes TS4 started as project Olympus which we only know because a certain developer left EA and then thought that he could leak confidential inside information. But the previous big Sims games started out as projects too. We just don’t know their code names because nobody leaked them.
How many developers worked on TS3 during the development of the basegame? We don’t know. But we know that other teams released EPs for TS2 at the same time. There were also in those days teams who made the Sims Story Line games and console games. So EA had always several teams working at the same time. Nothing new there.
During the development of the TS4 basegame EA had the studio in Salt Lake City making 2 EPs for TS3 both in 2012 and in 2013 such that more developers could work on the Sims 4 basegame. This doesn’t indicate that EA had fewer developers working on it than EA had on the previous basegame. But it took likely more time to find a new focus for TS4 to make it different from all the previous games. So they experimented and ended up with more focus on autonomous behavior on the cost of the size of the world and more focus on happiness and partying with less focus on raising a family (which again brought them to simplify babies, omit toddlers and simplify teens too).
But after the release of the TS4 basegame things changed because the Salt Lake City team then was removed from the Sims games because EA didn’t want so many big EPs released for TS4. Instead EA wanted to reduce costs by focusing much more on GPs and especially SPs which are much easier and cheaper for EA to make. I haven’t calculated the exact amount though. But if I did I would likely end up with the result that if people buy all released expansions every year then they will end up using just as much money every year on TS4 as they did on TS3. So the difference mainly is that EA releases the same value in money for TS4 as EA did for TS3 each year - but for much lower expenses because the new types of expansions require much less work then all the huge earlier EPs did.
What most simmers don’t seem to understand is that the developers don’t just know in advance how to make the next big game. If they just started making it then they likely would just make the previous game again (or something that would be extremely similar to it). But then most customers would say: ”Why should I buy the same game again just to see some very small adjustments! This would be way too expensive! So I will just continue playing the game that I already have!”
So the developers has to consider first how to make a completely different type of Sims game. They can’t just start making the game. So they likely come up with different ideas which they then have to test in different projects. Grant just told us that because he is a producer (who mainly just has to coordinate things) there isn’t much for him to do in this early stage and I think that it is because there isn’t anything to coordinate when people working on different projects just test different ideas. Only later when they have to choose which ideas to actually use the producers can start doing their real work.
I just want to comment on one thing. We know exactly who and how many worked on TS1, TS2, and TS3, because every name, even those who only did one texture for an object and nothing else (as an intern) were always listed in the credits. You don't have to guess. Read the credits. Maxis used to list anyone and everyone who was even in the room at the time, including all internships, so, it's not a guessing game. It's TS4 that doesn't list it's credits or allow the customers to know who did what and who was over what project and who might have just done one texture and nothing else. TS4 is the guessing game if it even has interneships, or how many people (including markerters) were involved. TS3's team and TS2's teams were huge, huge teams. We know from Rachel TS4's base had one hundred people working on it that includes orchestras, and other things people don't think about, etc.
Okay. I didn’t know that EA didn’t do that for TS4.
But anyway the size of the list of names doesn’t show everything either because we still don’t know for how long time each of those developers worked on a Sims basegame before they left EA (like TS4 developer Patrick Kelley) or were transferred to another project. We know that EA developed Sims 3 expansions at the same time as the Sims 4 basegame and also Sims 2 expansions at the same time as the Sims 3 basegame. But we still don’t know how much the developers were moved around between the projects or if the distribution between developers working on the new basegame and developers working on expansions for the earlier game was the same for the different games. So we can still only guess about such things and get very inaccurate estimations by counting the names in the different listings."Erpe;c-16231546" wrote:
Okay. I didn’t know that EA didn’t do that for TS4.
But anyway the size of the list of names doesn’t show everything either because we still don’t know for how long time each of those developers worked on a Sims basegame before they left EA (like TS4 developer Patrick Kelley) or were transferred to another project. We know that EA developed Sims 3 expansions at the same time as the Sims 4 basegame and also Sims 2 expansions at the same time as the Sims 3 basegame. But we still don’t know how much the developers were moved around between the projects or if the distribution between developers working on the new basegame and developers working on expansions for the earlier game was the same for the different games. So we can still only guess about such things and get very inaccurate estimations by counting the names in the different listings.
There are credits for Sims 4 too which even include the QA testers. I counted over 300. Apparently Maxis got a new manager since May. He has a pretty sweet looking beard. There are about five that I know of in the credits that no longer work for Maxis like SimGuruMeatball and SimGuruPizza just to name a couple. Sims 5 base is probably began production already since it takes a few years at least to produce any base game. I do know SimGuruRusski is currently working on the console version of the Sims 4, so yes they do move them around. SimGuruSteve and SimGuruChibi and SimGuruGraham I know are working on the PC version. Pretty sure SimGuruKimmi is too, I love her artwork. I mean you can ask them what they do for the Sims, they usually aren't shy to answer especially if they have a Twitter and are a SimGuru. I know who came up with the idea for the Voidcritters and that was fun he got to see DrGluon's Game of Porcelain Thrones game that use the Voidcritters.
Anyways I do know there were some artists who had worked on the Sims 2 but not the entire time like someone I had met in another community John Kim. I found him on the credits, but he said he mainly just had done some work for aliens and Maxis hired a lot of artists and then let them go when the work for them was finished. I think a lot of people are hired on for the initial base game work, but not everyone stays for the DLC like we have already seen from artists leaving with the Sims 4."Honey_Pie_360;c-16210286" wrote:
Sigh....Let Sims 4 just come and go
At its current stage its most likely going to go on as long as free play has."JoAnne65;c-16239685" wrote:
@rudy8292 Missed your post (was typing while you posted), lol, yeah, we’re kidding about it but I must admit if anything it actually makes me angry. Leaving essential things out and then acting like simmers should be greatful? I realize not everything in predecessors is automatically in a successor, I don’t even expect that, but toddlers, pools, ghosts, family tree? And then selling it as a generous gesture those things were added later and for free? I even think that’s kind of rude.
@MidnightAura Yes, by Grant and also by Rachel Franklin. It’s just not professional. You can say “we’ve tried to improve this”, but you’re just not going to downplay your previous work. It’s beyond me why anyone in any business would consider that a good idea. I know I’d really get in trouble at work if I’d do something like that and I work in a non profit organisation. And above all, it’s so not true that it makes things even sadder. Hoping nobody would notice, lol, yeah, well, you won’t get away with that with us hardcore casual players :p Maybe the ‘real gamers’ will buy it.
So what exactly do you think will be the fallout from those comments? How are they "not going to get away with it?"
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