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XHelperZ's avatar
XHelperZ
Hero+
2 years ago

Re: We don't need a garbage system such as abandonment penalty in mixtape mode.

This system isn't built on the idea of having cheaters in every game, it was put in place to make sure players don't leave games.

Before this system was put in place, a lot of lobbies were left with just a total of 3-4 players, pretty much none of these matches reaching a climax.

Even with the backfill system existing, it doesn't seem to be able to fill up lobbies completely if a lot of players decide to leave, even if it were able to do so, it might be problematic for the matchmaker to provide players that are within the skill bracket of the lobby.

Of course detection for cheaters and so on is always being worked on, but a F2P game is always going to encounter issues on this field due to players being able to create new accounts after being banned.

Removing this system won't decrease the amount of cheaters, making matches more frustrating and more matches won't be able to reach a proper end.

It's easy to remove certain things for a quick fix, but these types of things tend to hurt the game for the long-term, it's important to remember why these kind of systems were put in place and how removing it could result in other issues.

9 Replies

  • meece's avatar
    meece
    2 years ago
    @XHelperZ On the other people, players could then curate *their own* game experience and leave games they're not enjoying... say with cheaters... or where the lobby got too empty...

    But of course we must instead demand people play on beyond the point they want to leave. Very psychologically healthy 🙂
  • XHelperZ's avatar
    XHelperZ
    Hero+
    2 years ago

    I get that it's an issue, but even with such a penalty put in place, players are not forced to stay in the match.

    Of course players do get punished for leaving, but removing the penalty is simply not going to do anything good for mixtape.

    It might be worth to test certain different ways of handing out penalties, like giving them a penalty after leaving a certain amount of games.

    But if there isn't a penalty put in place, then a lot of these lobbies will just become empty.

    It takes one leaver to cause a massive domino effect of the entire lobby leaving, which isn't very fun either.

  • MayProtein's avatar
    MayProtein
    Rising Adventurer
    2 years ago
    @XHelperZ
    No, for what it's worth, if there's a penalty, it's practically equivalent to being forced to stay in the game.

    You're saying that eliminating penalties doesn't bode well for the mixtape?
    In fact, it's just the opposite.

    What I'm saying is that it's just wrong to penalize people for leaving a match when it doesn't provide a fair and enjoyable match with a certain balance of teams.

    I'm saying that it's wrong to force people to spend their time in a painful and boring match, with the threat of penalties, when all you can offer is a broken match that is not properly organized, regardless of whether or not people leave during the match.

    At least by eliminating this penalty system, players will no longer be forced to play in painful, boring, and completely unrealistic matches, and the frustration of being forced to play in these completely unrealistic matches will be reduced by the number of people who will be forced to play in these matches by removing the waiver penalty. It only takes a little bit of thought to realize that the frustration of being forced to play these completely unworkable matches is nothing compared to the lack of players due to the removal of the abandonment penalty.

    If that's the case, all you have to do is to provide a match with a certain degree of team balance so that it can be played properly, and if there is a shortage of players due to players leaving in the middle of a match, it can be solved in an instant by allowing other players to join in the middle of the match. If you want to prevent players from leaving a match just before the end because they think they are going to lose, just make it so that they cannot leave the match just before the match ends.

    If you want to prevent players from leaving a match because they are about to lose, all you have to do is to prevent them from leaving a match just before the match ends.

    More matches that don't end properly?
    In fact, most of the matches don't have proper endings now.

    With almost every match not only cheaters, but also with almost every match that is clearly not balanced as a team and most of the matches are not properly organized, there is absolutely no need and wrong for a penalty if you leave in the middle of a match.

    In the first place, you say that it was introduced to "prevent players from leaving the game," yet "players are not forced to stay in the match even if such a penalty is in place." You're saying, "I'm sorry, but you've got a logical fallacy at this point.

    At least in mixtape, which can only offer broken matches as they are now, there should be no such ridiculous system as a blanket penalty for players who leave in the middle of a match.

    In the current mixtape, penalties have only resulted in rather bad outcomes.

    Therefore, in the current mixtape, the penalty should be erased in any case.
    Penalties in this mode have become a "cancer" for the game.
  • aim_with_my_eye's avatar
    aim_with_my_eye
    2 years ago

    Actually we need, also we need it for BR pubs. Leavers are cancer of the game. Systematic abandonment must be penalized even by mathematical means - it's hurting only 1 player experience, but leaver hurting his entire team's. If you're not grown up to respect teamplay and responsibillness - go play some CoD FFA.

  • MayProtein's avatar
    MayProtein
    Rising Adventurer
    2 years ago

    @aim_with_my_eye
    In the current mixtape, no matter what you think, the withdrawal penalty should not be implemented.
    In BR mode, where the loss of one player is a serious disadvantage to the team, a penalty for leaving is necessary, but in mixtape mode, where there are basically a certain number of players per team and there is currently no team balance at all, it is unnecessary by any means.

    I'm referring to the current situation where the only matches that are offered are ones that are clearly not viable due to team balance and users violating the rules, but they impose a penalty that doesn't allow any withdrawal from the match. I am saying that it is fine to have a withdrawal penalty as long as the match is properly organized.

    The only thing that is a "cancer" to the game is a system that offers only such unrealistic matches and a flat penalty for leaving the game in the middle of a match, when you can't play your favorite mode at anytime you want.

    Can't you even understand the very simple fact that a match that is not played properly hurts both the player's experience and the team as a whole?

    You haven't read the subject matter of the topic, etc., as written above, and yet you say things like, "If you haven't grown up to respect team play and responsibility, go play CoD FFA." If you are making fun of people by saying things like that, you should stop playing games and learn to read a sentence.
    Do you realize that you are not qualified to say "if you are not mature enough to respect team play and responsibility, don't play apex" when you are making fun of people like that without respecting other people's opinions?

    It is wrong to ask the players to be responsible and mature enough to respect team play when the game is not fulfilling its responsibility to mixtape mode in the first place, and the developers do not have those things in place, so the players are leaving the game in disgust.

  • Asmodeus566's avatar
    Asmodeus566
    Hero+
    2 years ago

    @MayProtein 

    I can see how the abandonment penalty system can be frustrating. However it is equally frustrating when you play a match and just because your teammate did not get the Legend they want quits. 

    IMHO the abandonment penalty is a good thing. Quitters hurt the match, hurt the team they were on and makes a bigger mismatch and even the opposing team can feel bad about that as well.

    If you feel so strongly about that then maybe mixtape is not the mode for you. 

  • MayProtein's avatar
    MayProtein
    Rising Adventurer
    2 years ago
    @Asmodeus566
    So, if you have a solid team balance, and if you are able to provide matches that are played properly by eliminating users who cheat and use macros and tools that violate the rules, then there should be some kind of waiver penalty for players who leave a match and cause damage to their team. You say you have no problem with some sort of penalty for players.
    However, as it stands now, there are tons of cheaters and players who use macros and converters to cheat, and the balance of each team is catastrophically bad to begin with, always winning or losing one-sidedly, and there are almost no matches that can be played properly.
    Do you really understand that I have been saying for a long time that it is wrong to try to force players to stay in a match until it ends without even allowing them to leave when the match itself is already corrupt and broken?

    Whether the player leaves or not, the current state of the match itself is already hurting the game experience for both teams.

    I mean, if a player leaves a team in the first place, why not allow other players to join in the middle of the match to compensate for the player's departure?

    I have said many times that this abandonment penalty is a major cause for players to quit the game as they find it boring in the current situation where there are only matches where the premise is destroyed in the first place, such that there is no balance between teams, and that such one-sided matches are the only thing that can be said, "No, this is fine, even You should realize that people like you are in the minority in saying "no, this is fine, even if there are only one-sided matches, under no circumstances should a player be penalized for leaving a game that hurts the team experience".

    Most players would quit the game itself if they were forced to continue playing in these rotten and unworkable matches in the first place.

    What you are saying now, while seemingly correct, is simply an attempt to maintain the status quo instead of using our brains to improve the current problems.
    The only result will be to shorten the life of the game and cause it to decline.

    You should understand that the exclusive and rigid idea that if you can't accept the current situation, you should quit this game, is the reason for the game's great decline.

    Well, that's why the playing population is declining greatly and apex is declining.
  • Asmodeus566's avatar
    Asmodeus566
    Hero+
    2 years ago

    @MayProtein 

    You make quite a few good points here. Well put together and thank you for your response.

    I do not play a lot of mixtape because it is a hot mess at times, however when I play I never quit, I do my best and try not to let it get to me. 

    I am all for improving the game. Yes MM needs to be better in Mixtape, I will not argue against that.

    Yes cheaters need to be stopped but as we all know it is a continuous fight as anti cheat gets better the cheaters find new ways to cheat so it cannot be stopped completely.

    However I still think that the abandonment penalty in Mixtape and Ranked play needs to stay.

    There are so many people that just leave off the get go, you took their legend and the just leave, they do not like the legend you are playing and leave, they leave just to mess others games up, They are having a bad match even though the team is winning and they leave etc, they are losing in the match even though it is close. 

    The behavior of petty gamers will always be there and the only way to address them is with abandonment penalties. 

    In a perfect world players would not cheat, the MM would be balanced, players would give it their best and be on good behavior and we would not need the abandonment penalty at all.

    However sadly that is not the case. 

    Happy Friday and GG's to you. 

  • MayProtein's avatar
    MayProtein
    Rising Adventurer
    2 years ago
    @Asmodeus566
    An abandonment penalty in ranked matches is definitely needed.
    This is because when there are only three players on a team and one of them is absent, the team's power is greatly reduced, and the nature of the battle royale makes it impossible for another player to join in the middle of the match.

    In mixtape mode, however, there is no problem if another player joins in the middle of a match to take the place of a player who has left.

    Of course, leaving the game for poor reasons is not acceptable, but mixtape mode should be a mode that can be played more casually, and there is no problem even if players switch places.

    And nothing is the only and absolute way to deal with the behavior of petty gamers, a one-size-fits-all penalty, and there are plenty of other ways to do it.
    You should start by throwing out that entrenched mindset.

    As I have said many times before, if a player leaves in the middle of a game, another player should be able to join in to make up the shortfall.
    If you want to deal with players who leave right after the start of a match because a legend they want to use has been used by another player, or players who leave because they feel they are about to lose, then you should only penalize them if they leave right after the start of a match or near the end of a match.

    In the first place, as I've been saying all along, the current mixtape mode has too many broken matches, and I'm saying that no penalty should be given for exiting in the middle of a match unless that situation is resolved.
    We should never try to force players to stay in a match until the majority of matches are properly established.
    Because if players are tied to those broken matches, the majority of players will leave the game, saying that the game is not fun and that they are forced to play too often for too many painful hours.

    I have said many times that if you want to penalize players who leave in the middle of a match, you should first make sure that the match is well organized and enjoyable for the players.

    Being tied to a match that is out of balance is just as painful, if not more painful, than a match where players are leaving one by one and there are no more players left.
    And the current mixtape mode, which makes that pain almost every time, will eventually lead to fewer players.
    So, at the very least, we should allow players to leave until the current situation is properly remedied to minimize the pain.

    The current mixtape mode is like being forced to live in daily fear, not even being allowed to leave the area where security has collapsed and the place is a complete mess.

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