derp

@Peri_Longbow_plz Your statements aren't wrong but they are flawed. His 15% damage reduction is negligible against most guns that aren't light ammo. This is anecdotal but the only thing that seems to keep most Caustics alive is their tendency to cling to buildings which affords them a fair amount of cover. I honestly forget they have damage reduction given how easily they go down when exposed.

The comparison to Gibraltar is also quite fair. From the game's introduction both characters were theoretically strong in certain situations. Gibraltar thrives in open spaces while Caustic is beastly indoors. If your random three man team decides to dive buildings then buh-bye to Gibby's abilities. Likewise if they want to engage a fight in an open space Caustic can choose to abandon his team or make do with what he has.

Only considering the most ideal situation for the character to fight in without considering the likelihood of being able to dictate the terms of a fight is flawed. Even if you are in an ideal location as a Caustic there are many ways to disable or get around his traps. Beyond that why fight him? If I see a Caustic has heavily trapped a building and I don't think I can take the fight easily I'll ignore him. What reason do I have to let him dictate the terms of the fight?

The DPS of that gas also feels pretty weak. I'm rarely getting hit by the deepest parts of one his traps so I normally escape with minimum damage. Normally the traps only effectively deny an area and give away my location for a brief moment. The blind and slow are the more harmful aspects of his gas so complain about that if you like not the laughable damage.

Caustic might be valuable in Ranked since he can be just too toxic (sorry but this amused me) for anyone to push but beyond that he isn't much in combat. In the hands of a capable player and decent team Caustic seems above average at best.

"If you don't use Caustic's abilities, then he becomes a chunky character who, sure, takes 15% less damage, but is also much bigger and easier to hit."

Yes, but the same can be said about any other character. Gibraltar who doesn't use his abilities is also just a chunky character who, sure, takes 15% less damage, but is also much bigger and easier to hit. That arm shield doesn't really pull much advantages up either.

"The Nox Vision ability is an advantage, but will only work if an enemy gets caught in his traps, and stays there."

That's the whole point of his traps though. And I see more than enough people who have 50+ wins and still run head-on into a gas trap and is exposed to our team's fire. Even more so new players. And that's where his gas traps become a nuisance. You don't always expect a gas trap behind every door you see. And playing 'too carefully' wastes time and focuses your attention too much on finding traps.

Of course, my whole approach to this game with my team is very usually stealth, careful advancing and tactical takeout of enemies. But not every team is that coordinated. Not every team wants to play stealthily. Others prefer aggression and head-on advancement. And you can't expect them to drop that just for one character.

Alternatively: Bring Wattson to Caustic's level. Make her fence actually deal damage, obscure vision and slow them down, while also exposing them with danger vision through Wattson. Sounds fair since Caustic isn't seen as OP that way, right? 🙂 I'm quite curious about the thoughts on that one.

"It isn't really a hypothetical situation, as there is like a 80% chance a Caustic will have to move at some point early-mid game, and lategame it's 100%."

Where do you pull those percentages from? That aside, yes. Any camping team has to move eventually. But you seem to forget that moving isn't an immediate death sentence. And the time from building to building doesn't take 2 hours. It usually goes very fast if you have a Pathfinder in your group. And actually the chances are fairly high that IF you have a pathfinder in your group, your prediction for the next ring can't be that far off. Especially later on the contractions aren't that unpredictable.

And even if you are off with your 'prediction', that doesn't stop you or your team from quickly moving from A to B, and I've seen various squads, us included, doing that more often than not while securing that place. And before you know it, we were champions.

"As I said earlier, if a Caustic is using their abilities to their advantage in a place that gives them another advantage, then they have a huge advantage. Why would you try to attack them if you have no way to do so?"

This is explained very simply. Indeed you don't have to engage them. And rarely I do so, and if I do, it's with grenades. But this is connected to risks. They don't camp for no reason. They have shooting holes, they have ways of harming or even downing you. And even just a single downed ally is slowing you down unnecessarily. And all it takes for them is a single assault. It's likely a 3 vs 2. And then what? If you kill all 3, you're good. If not, you were bad. Still, the caustic was the main reason why you didn't enter that building in the first place, hence every event happening out there is easily traced back to Caustic.

And true, Caustic in itself isn't really a trouble maker. But especially the downsides you draw from being affected by his abilities are very usually enough to be the end for you, or you avoid engaging in general. In both cases, Caustic fulfilled his job nicely.

I have yet to see a case where my Wattson fences actually make people say "nah, not going in there" - Because their downsides for them are so minuscule, it's not worth avoiding, really. 10 shield loss, 1 second being slower, and that Wattson knows it has been crossed. Well great. What now? I like to refer to one of my earlier stated points about "Give Wattson the same abilities with the Fences"

"True, Gibby is very different than Caustic, but as a whole, his kit is more useful than Caustic's."

In what way? Why, of course Gibraltar's abilities can be used anywhere and retain their use. That doesn't make him any more useful though. That is a general misconception. The usefulness of a character isn't determined by where you can use it, but how well his abilities generate advantages. And while his shields allows him to revive downed allies faster, he is also creating himself an event of where the first shot already decides the fate of the battle. Or a grenade. But even that aside, his shield bubble is finite. Caustic's gas traps aren't.

For instance, if Caustic's gas traps were having a lifetime of 25 seconds, his ability would have a vastly different impact on the game's dynamic.

"Yes, I agree skill is a big factor here, but it seems like you don't exactly know how to deal with a Caustic. Like you said, a newbie is easily going to get frustrated. Some other food for thought, if Caustic was so strong, why is he only B and C tier on all of the lists I mentioned? If Caustic was so strong, why are there so few pro players who use him?"

Different question: Are we playing the same game? Every second or third match I'm playing, I have some caustic in my group who eventually traps up a whole house, we camp there, make some kills and move on, repeat. Heck, one time the caustic in my group did 13 kills. 13. Yes, yes, it could have very well been done with any other character. But the fact he wasn't downed once and most of his kills where with the help of his gas on unsuspecting enemies inside our building has to say a lot.

Plus, the countless topics in this forum about "caustic being too annoying" are also a meaningful indicator. An indicator that is waved off.