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"If you don't use Caustic's abilities, then he becomes a chunky character who, sure, takes 15% less damage, but is also much bigger and easier to hit."
Yes, but the same can be said about any other character. Gibraltar who doesn't use his abilities is also just a chunky character who, sure, takes 15% less damage, but is also much bigger and easier to hit. That arm shield doesn't really pull much advantages up either.
"The Nox Vision ability is an advantage, but will only work if an enemy gets caught in his traps, and stays there."
That's the whole point of his traps though. And I see more than enough people who have 50+ wins and still run head-on into a gas trap and is exposed to our team's fire. Even more so new players. And that's where his gas traps become a nuisance. You don't always expect a gas trap behind every door you see. And playing 'too carefully' wastes time and focuses your attention too much on finding traps.
Of course, my whole approach to this game with my team is very usually stealth, careful advancing and tactical takeout of enemies. But not every team is that coordinated. Not every team wants to play stealthily. Others prefer aggression and head-on advancement. And you can't expect them to drop that just for one character.
Alternatively: Bring Wattson to Caustic's level. Make her fence actually deal damage, obscure vision and slow them down, while also exposing them with danger vision through Wattson. Sounds fair since Caustic isn't seen as OP that way, right? 🙂 I'm quite curious about the thoughts on that one.
"It isn't really a hypothetical situation, as there is like a 80% chance a Caustic will have to move at some point early-mid game, and lategame it's 100%."
Where do you pull those percentages from? That aside, yes. Any camping team has to move eventually. But you seem to forget that moving isn't an immediate death sentence. And the time from building to building doesn't take 2 hours. It usually goes very fast if you have a Pathfinder in your group. And actually the chances are fairly high that IF you have a pathfinder in your group, your prediction for the next ring can't be that far off. Especially later on the contractions aren't that unpredictable.
And even if you are off with your 'prediction', that doesn't stop you or your team from quickly moving from A to B, and I've seen various squads, us included, doing that more often than not while securing that place. And before you know it, we were champions.
"As I said earlier, if a Caustic is using their abilities to their advantage in a place that gives them another advantage, then they have a huge advantage. Why would you try to attack them if you have no way to do so?"
This is explained very simply. Indeed you don't have to engage them. And rarely I do so, and if I do, it's with grenades. But this is connected to risks. They don't camp for no reason. They have shooting holes, they have ways of harming or even downing you. And even just a single downed ally is slowing you down unnecessarily. And all it takes for them is a single assault. It's likely a 3 vs 2. And then what? If you kill all 3, you're good. If not, you were bad. Still, the caustic was the main reason why you didn't enter that building in the first place, hence every event happening out there is easily traced back to Caustic.
And true, Caustic in itself isn't really a trouble maker. But especially the downsides you draw from being affected by his abilities are very usually enough to be the end for you, or you avoid engaging in general. In both cases, Caustic fulfilled his job nicely.
I have yet to see a case where my Wattson fences actually make people say "nah, not going in there" - Because their downsides for them are so minuscule, it's not worth avoiding, really. 10 shield loss, 1 second being slower, and that Wattson knows it has been crossed. Well great. What now? I like to refer to one of my earlier stated points about "Give Wattson the same abilities with the Fences"
"True, Gibby is very different than Caustic, but as a whole, his kit is more useful than Caustic's."
In what way? Why, of course Gibraltar's abilities can be used anywhere and retain their use. That doesn't make him any more useful though. That is a general misconception. The usefulness of a character isn't determined by where you can use it, but how well his abilities generate advantages. And while his shields allows him to revive downed allies faster, he is also creating himself an event of where the first shot already decides the fate of the battle. Or a grenade. But even that aside, his shield bubble is finite. Caustic's gas traps aren't.
For instance, if Caustic's gas traps were having a lifetime of 25 seconds, his ability would have a vastly different impact on the game's dynamic.
"Yes, I agree skill is a big factor here, but it seems like you don't exactly know how to deal with a Caustic. Like you said, a newbie is easily going to get frustrated. Some other food for thought, if Caustic was so strong, why is he only B and C tier on all of the lists I mentioned? If Caustic was so strong, why are there so few pro players who use him?"
Different question: Are we playing the same game? Every second or third match I'm playing, I have some caustic in my group who eventually traps up a whole house, we camp there, make some kills and move on, repeat. Heck, one time the caustic in my group did 13 kills. 13. Yes, yes, it could have very well been done with any other character. But the fact he wasn't downed once and most of his kills where with the help of his gas on unsuspecting enemies inside our building has to say a lot.
Plus, the countless topics in this forum about "caustic being too annoying" are also a meaningful indicator. An indicator that is waved off.
@Peri_Longbow_plz
"Yes, but the same can be said about any other character."
This is actually kind of false. First, Gibby's arm shield is a big advantage, especially in a 1v1, as Gibby can trade much easier than any other legend. He has the extra 50 hp, which is sort of negligible, but it is great for trading off, which will happen a lot.
Aside from that, Wraith is an example of a good character even without her abilities. Her tactical, although very valuable, has a 35 second cooldown, and so can only be used once per fight, maybe twice or three times if it's especially drawn out. Her ult is good, but it isn't an essential and not something that could be used every fight. This leaves Wraith with her precognition and her small hitbox, which is usually the main mechanics she has to use each fight.
Or, take Bangalore, who can run 30% faster when shot at. This is a great passive and due to Bangalore's small hitbox without Low Profile, Bangalore is pretty good even without her abilities.
"You don't always expect a gas trap behind every door you see."
That is true, but you can always just back out. It does minimal damage, and, unless the enemy is expecting you or something, gives you ample time to retreat and formulate a plan with the new knowledge that there is a Caustic. You say you like to play tactically. What characters does you/your team use? I would suggest you use Crypto, especially against a Caustic. Back to my point, if you use legends that aren't very stealthy, you can't expect them to be the best at a stealth/sneaky playstyle. They can still do okay, but they may not be specialized for that specific thing.
Yes, other players do like to be aggressive. But, you see, I can expect them to change up their playstyle. There is more to the game than just pure skill. Once you get to higher levels, skill is great, but strategy starts becoming more and more important. At it's core, this game has a lot of strategic potential, and you have to be aware of that as a player. In summary, yes, some players can use a more aggressive playstyle, but if they want to win, they should think about strategy more. Just because one character designed to be a defensive character annoys them doesn't mean it needs to be changed so that they don't get slightly annoyed when their half blind rampage into a deathtrap gets them killed.
True, Wattson could have a damage buff, but she is used more in competitive play than Caustic, so I have an inclination to believe she doesn't need a buff.
"But you seem to forget that moving isn't an immediate death sentence."
First off, I did make up the first percentage, but I feel like it is somewhat accurate. It's possible that the team just happens to find the right building, so they stay in there for a while, but it's unlikely that they don't move at all for early-mid game. The second percentage is pretty accurate, as in late-game the zone will disappear, forcing all teams to get to the center or die first to the zone.
It's true that moving isn't a death sentence, but it's still a vulnerable time, and especially in WE, there is a lot of open area, and towards the end, the campers will be forced to fight for the remaining defensible spots.
"And even a single downed ally is slowing you down unnecessarily."
True, but you don't have to hang out where they can shoot you. In such a situation, it's likely that you are fighting them at a distance, which makes it much easier to pull of revives. It also doesn't mean you have to rush a fortified area. Just zipline past, and if a teammate gets knocked, get behind cover and revive them. If the enemy tries to rush, then they'll be leaving all of their fortifications, and are more vulnerable. Like I said before, Caustic is less useful out in the open. Wattson is even more vulnerable, as her abilities lose even more viability when out in the open. Depending on the ability, you can use it to fend them off or get your teammate faster/easier.
Like you say, Caustic fulfills his intended purpose just right.
I accidentally answered the Wattson thing in a previous point, but I'll say it again. Wattson is used more in competitive than Caustic, and there's a reason for it. I can't exactly pin it down, but I'm guessing it's a combo of her animations, not affecting teammates, and her ult has more use. I don't think Wattson needs more of a buff.
"Why, Gibraltar's abilities can be used anywhere and retain their use."
This is literally why Gibraltar is better than Caustic. Gibraltar has more flexibility in his playstyle, which makes him good in many situations, which makes him a better choice than a character that is only good in some situations.
The usefulness of a character is at least partially decided by how universal the abilities can be used in. It matters much less if the ability is really good if it can only be used in a very specific situation.
How is Gibraltar creating an event where the first shot decides the battle?
Sure, Caustic's gas traps can last forever if never activated, but if they aren't activated, they aren't doing anything. Plus, they don't provide a support advantage.
"Heck, one time the caustic in my group did 13 kills."
Well, sure, someone can have a good game occasionally. I once got the 2k damage badge with Crypto, of all people, back in mid S3. I'm fairly sure I also got kills in the teens, but I can't verify that part, as it was well, S3.
You still haven't head on answered why the pros don't use him, and why he is only B and C tier on the lists. And you also haven't mentioned what streamers say he is really strong.
Also, just because there are a lot of topics from people who don't know how to play against Caustic that have built up over a long time doesn't exactly mean that Caustic needs to be changed.
I'd suggest trying to push this in the General Discussion forum area, they'll have more arguments and time than me.
https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/Nerf-Caustic-Please/td-p/7550286/page/2
Either visit that post and comment on it, or visit the main General Discussion and make your own post.
https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/bd-p/apex-legends-general-discussion-en
"Yes, but the same can be said about any other character."
This is actually kind of false. First, Gibby's arm shield is a big advantage, especially in a 1v1, as Gibby can trade much easier than any other legend. He has the extra 50 hp, which is sort of negligible, but it is great for trading off, which will happen a lot.
Aside from that, Wraith is an example of a good character even without her abilities. Her tactical, although very valuable, has a 35 second cooldown, and so can only be used once per fight, maybe twice or three times if it's especially drawn out. Her ult is good, but it isn't an essential and not something that could be used every fight. This leaves Wraith with her precognition and her small hitbox, which is usually the main mechanics she has to use each fight.
Or, take Bangalore, who can run 30% faster when shot at. This is a great passive and due to Bangalore's small hitbox without Low Profile, Bangalore is pretty good even without her abilities.
"You don't always expect a gas trap behind every door you see."
That is true, but you can always just back out. It does minimal damage, and, unless the enemy is expecting you or something, gives you ample time to retreat and formulate a plan with the new knowledge that there is a Caustic. You say you like to play tactically. What characters does you/your team use? I would suggest you use Crypto, especially against a Caustic. Back to my point, if you use legends that aren't very stealthy, you can't expect them to be the best at a stealth/sneaky playstyle. They can still do okay, but they may not be specialized for that specific thing.
Yes, other players do like to be aggressive. But, you see, I can expect them to change up their playstyle. There is more to the game than just pure skill. Once you get to higher levels, skill is great, but strategy starts becoming more and more important. At it's core, this game has a lot of strategic potential, and you have to be aware of that as a player. In summary, yes, some players can use a more aggressive playstyle, but if they want to win, they should think about strategy more. Just because one character designed to be a defensive character annoys them doesn't mean it needs to be changed so that they don't get slightly annoyed when their half blind rampage into a deathtrap gets them killed.
True, Wattson could have a damage buff, but she is used more in competitive play than Caustic, so I have an inclination to believe she doesn't need a buff.
"But you seem to forget that moving isn't an immediate death sentence."
First off, I did make up the first percentage, but I feel like it is somewhat accurate. It's possible that the team just happens to find the right building, so they stay in there for a while, but it's unlikely that they don't move at all for early-mid game. The second percentage is pretty accurate, as in late-game the zone will disappear, forcing all teams to get to the center or die first to the zone.
It's true that moving isn't a death sentence, but it's still a vulnerable time, and especially in WE, there is a lot of open area, and towards the end, the campers will be forced to fight for the remaining defensible spots.
"And even a single downed ally is slowing you down unnecessarily."
True, but you don't have to hang out where they can shoot you. In such a situation, it's likely that you are fighting them at a distance, which makes it much easier to pull of revives. It also doesn't mean you have to rush a fortified area. Just zipline past, and if a teammate gets knocked, get behind cover and revive them. If the enemy tries to rush, then they'll be leaving all of their fortifications, and are more vulnerable. Like I said before, Caustic is less useful out in the open. Wattson is even more vulnerable, as her abilities lose even more viability when out in the open. Depending on the ability, you can use it to fend them off or get your teammate faster/easier.
Like you say, Caustic fulfills his intended purpose just right.
I accidentally answered the Wattson thing in a previous point, but I'll say it again. Wattson is used more in competitive than Caustic, and there's a reason for it. I can't exactly pin it down, but I'm guessing it's a combo of her animations, not affecting teammates, and her ult has more use. I don't think Wattson needs more of a buff.
"Why, Gibraltar's abilities can be used anywhere and retain their use."
This is literally why Gibraltar is better than Caustic. Gibraltar has more flexibility in his playstyle, which makes him good in many situations, which makes him a better choice than a character that is only good in some situations.
The usefulness of a character is at least partially decided by how universal the abilities can be used in. It matters much less if the ability is really good if it can only be used in a very specific situation.
How is Gibraltar creating an event where the first shot decides the battle?
Sure, Caustic's gas traps can last forever if never activated, but if they aren't activated, they aren't doing anything. Plus, they don't provide a support advantage.
"Heck, one time the caustic in my group did 13 kills."
Well, sure, someone can have a good game occasionally. I once got the 2k damage badge with Crypto, of all people, back in mid S3. I'm fairly sure I also got kills in the teens, but I can't verify that part, as it was well, S3.
You still haven't head on answered why the pros don't use him, and why he is only B and C tier on the lists. And you also haven't mentioned what streamers say he is really strong.
Also, just because there are a lot of topics from people who don't know how to play against Caustic that have built up over a long time doesn't exactly mean that Caustic needs to be changed.
I'd suggest trying to push this in the General Discussion forum area, they'll have more arguments and time than me.
https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/Nerf-Caustic-Please/td-p/7550286/page/2
Either visit that post and comment on it, or visit the main General Discussion and make your own post.
https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/bd-p/apex-legends-general-discussion-en
- @Sir_Named "You still haven't head on answered why the pros don't use him, and why he is only B and C tier on the lists. And you also haven't mentioned what streamers say he is really strong."
Different question: What makes a professional a professional? The fact he can kill everything reliably with high accuracy? Or that he can use his legend's kit reliably in favor of the team?
The former is basically answered with: Caustic is just not their role. Why would I want to use a stationary character if my goal is killing people? Obviously Pathfinder, Bloodhound, Wraith or Octane are better choices then. But that's not Caustic being bad or a low tier, that's him being a different approach on the game.
Which quickly brings me to the "Which steamer" - One streamer that looked trustworthy because he also had a website for it: Dottzgaming. Caustic and Wattson are placed in the A-Tier.
I also took myself the freedom to look over your above mentioned tier lists, and went a bit further: By seeing whether they made one prior or not. And yes, some of them indeed did. Aside from updates, there was another thing I noticed: Some of them switched from "stationary" to "mobility" probably because their play style simply evolved.
And I mean I see that myself, and on myself. I previously played much more with Lifeline because sniping people on distance and patching up damage reliably was kind of my play style. Now I use Pathfinder or Bloodhound and go more head-on in fights. And who knows, maybe in 2 or 3 more months I sit there and use even more offensive approaches.
Point is, you eventually turn into a killing machine. Most level 200+ people I Play with and who are jumpmasters jump into rare-loot cities which gets us killed 95% of the time. So why use Wattson or Caustic for that if you could also just use Pathfinder, Wraith or Octane for that? - @Peri_Longbow_plz Well, yeah. Caustic isn't as good at a higher level, so people don't use Caustic as much.
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