Re: How to balance Gibraltar on both platforms!

Gun Shield indeed needs to go back to 50 HP if they going to make him 15% reduced damage. His gun shield doesn't even count towards our damage either.

@Leo_the_Lion25

What do you mean if they are going to make him 15%? He got his base health (100 HP) fortified increased from 10 to 15% for the Season 2 update. The only reason the gun shield should get back to 50 HP is if it also covers his head, which it should to make it usable on PC and not OP on console.

@ZeptikkHueAnything that covers his head is OP. Currently if you get the benefit of the doubt on saying headshots are always easy to hit and that's all anyone on PC does anyway : he's got the same size head as anyone but he takes less damage in it. Why would he need a buff so that you can't headshot him while he's ADSing?

[edit] -  Are you 100% sure that the fortified buff only affects his health?  If this was true our damage numbers on his armor would be the same as they are on other legends : and they're not.  They're lower even if he has armor. 

@Anlbrd

1. He needs a buff because he is too weak on PC. If you can think of any other ways to buff him without making him OP on console, please come with suggestions. Every legend is OP in some situations, I want Gibraltar to be OP in 1 or 2 situations, which is head on close combat and maybe when sniping, since he is basically UP (under-powered) in every other situation. He is UP when running, walking, sitting, near, far and from every angle except the front IF he is ADS'ing without a broken shield. On PC he is UP even with his arm shield up since he can't really dodge bullets. It's so easy to shoot him in the side, head or legs that his shield does not really matter.

2. Actually you made me double check and it seems like Fortified might affect shields now too after they resolved some bugs, but I did not find any actual tests\empirical evidence yet. I will have to run tests myself I guess. Anyways 15% even with body armor level 3 is not much considering his model is 240% larger than Wraith's. Point is I've played both as him and against him more than enough to be absolutely 100% sure that he is a terrible legend on PC. I've yet to see a top player or streamer play consistently as good with him as with other legends as well. I've seen some good plays on console though, but even Staycation who is pretty big on console admits he is not quite up there even after the Season 2 buffs, although his initial reaction would lead you to think otherwise. I like challenges so I usually get a bit sad when I see Gibraltars because I know the chance of them being an easy kill is 9 out of 10. (mainly because mostly newbies choose him as they are not aware how bad he is. I bump into good Gibraltar players more often in Season 2 due to players choosing him to do missions, but I always get a confidence boost when I spot him)

@ZeptikkHueYou keep saying he is underpowered because he is too big. The way to fix that is to make him smaller :S Anything else just either adds another imbalance or a red herring mechanic that doesn't do anything to change the underlying issue of him being easier to hit.

The 240% of wraith thing isn't accurate.  He is bigger than her but that statistic takes into account loads of stuff on his model which isn't a part of his hitbox.  Wraiths hitbox is more or less pixelperfect as far as I've tested.

@Anlbrd

And you keep saying they need to shrink him. Well, if that's your logic then you'd have to make sure every character is the same size. This is never going to happen so I don't understand why you are repeating this. You are basically arguing for all legends being similar which would make for a very uninteresting game. Reducing him to the size of Caustic would help, but it's a cop out and not in line with Respawns game mechanic design.

You have to count for the player model, you can't just count the hit box. A bigger model makes people able to pre-shoot you and it makes it harder for you to hide and you are easily spottet in the distance.

I don't really get why you are responding without at least one realistic balance suggestion. Also, the more I investigate and get feedback from console players, the more I am convinced he is quite underwhelming on console too. Your friend is good at the game because he is good at gaming and not because his main is Gibraltar..

I still feel that making all characters (except pathfinder) use their tactical faster would be enough of a buff. You can pull off some pretty cheeky tricks with his dome of protection at close range if you can get it out fast enough. Also how is Gibraltar an easy target at range? I'm sincerely curious since I feel practically invulnerable outside of close range. That dome of protection is no joke if the other team can't rush you down.

To be clear : I think the issue of him being easy to hit is MASSIVELY overstated, especially at the top level of gameplay.  To people at the top: as a general rule - most things are easy to hit, because they're all consistently good shots.  The logic of "why make it easier then" is sound, and it's why I would argue that they should all be approximately the same size, if not the same shape.

In UNRANKED play : the issue is more relevant, as the disadvantage means better players are far more likely to be hit by worse players than if they were a smaller target - which will really annoy anyone who makes a living by pubstomping in multiplayer games for spectators.

Look at the logic of how you've stated the problem.  I'll paraphrase and if my understanding of what you've said is wrong please tell me specifically where:

"On PC everyone aims for headshots, and it's easier to do with a mouse than a controller.  His shield doesn't cover his head so it isn't relevant in its current guise as a mitigating factor to him being easier to kill."

^ His head is the same size as everyone else's and he takes LESS damage in it.  If the problem is exactly as you've stated it : Gibraltar isn't actually at a disadvantage.  This means that either the problem is different to how you're explaining it or that it isn't actually a problem.  In either case : it needs to be re-examined or re-explained.

@heme725

I agree with you on all points. What I meant was obviously when he is not using the Dome shield. And as you say it takes a while to activate it so in high skilled games you will often find yourself dead before it triggers or cools down if you run in the open.

@Anlbrd wrote: "If he was as underpowered as you're saying it wouldn't matter how good he was at the game, he'd be worse when playing Gibraltar and good when playing everyone else. This isn't happening."

He is underpowered, but as I said, player skill is much more important than legend abilities since legends are not that powerful in this game. When I say Gibraltar is weak I mean compared to the other legends. Choosing Gibraltar does not make a good player into a bad player. I'm not going to be too certain when it comes to console, but if your friend was a PC player I guarantee you he would be even better after some time when switching to a different legend.

@Anlbrd wrote: "Normalising the character sizes is a realistic solution"

Again, normalizing character sizes is not a realistic solution since Respawn has never hinted that they will ever do so. I agree with you it would fix the problem, but it would be a bad way to fix it as it would hurt variety. Anyways, there is no point discussing something which most likely is not going to happen.

 

@Anlbrd wrote: "Just attempts to make him equally unbalanced but in a positive way in another direction, to hopefully mitigate his lack of balance in a negative way in his size"

 

Your logic is flawed or at least not in line with how all current legends work. You could apply this thinking to any legend as every one of them have some situations where they outshine the others. This game is not about having every legend being perfectly balanced in every situation, it's about playing into each legends strengths and weaknesses. Gibraltars weakness is his size, so he needs some great abilities to account for this huge weakness.

 

@Anlbrd wrote: "I think the issue of him being easy to hit is MASSIVELY overstated, especially at the top level of gameplay"

 

You are wrong. Even top players like Dizzy and Shroud does not hit perfect sprays most of the time. Well, except when playing against Gibraltar that is.

 

@Anlbrd wrote: "Gibraltar isn't actually at a disadvantage.  This means that either the problem is different to how you're explaining it or that it isn't actually a problem."

 

It may very well be in the way I explain it. English is not my primary language. I do however think you should start playing on PC before you try to educate hardcore PC players like myself about the game being balanced or not on my platform. Anyways I'll try again. His head is the largest head in the game although I agree it's not that much larger than the others, but this is not the main point. The main point is that his head is very easy to hit since Gibraltar is generally slower than the other legends since he has to ADS for quite a while before his shield pops up, meaning he can't dance in and out of ADS to dodge bullets with fancy moves. It is also soooo easy to track Gibraltar compared to the others because he is so big and visible on your monitor. Anyone who knows a bit about reaction times and aiming knows that the most important factor to reacting to your target is it's visibility. He is a slower and much more visible legend compared to the others. 15% damage reduction would be OP if every great player hit all of their shots at any legend, but this is not the case. Even the greatest aimers hit Gibraltar at least 25%-50% more than legends like Wraith and Pathfinder. Gibraltar is a total joke in high level PC games and if people play him at those levels it's usually just to check out new changes or do missions.

@ZeptikkHueI started playing FPS on PC over 20 years ago. Unless Apex works entirely differently to any other FPS that has ever existed - we're speaking the same language, despite me not having had the chance to play it on PC much.  If we're going to balance both games the same way, then I'm as equipped as any PC player to talk about how.  Personally I reckon they should balance the games separately. I'm not trying to educate you about anything, that would be presumptuous - I'm just responding logically to what you're saying. Shroud not playing as Gibraltar may be indicative that there's a problem with him (it also may not) - it doesn't tell us what the problem is, so we have to figure it out. Assume nothing.

Gibraltar isn't any slower than any other character. He walks/runs/ADS at exactly the same speed. Peeking over rocks is exactly the same for him as anyone else, peeking round corners is exactly the same for him as Pathfinder, for instance, in terms of the model width. Your ideas about him getting hit before he peeks significantly earlier than anyone else etc have to be proven before I can talk seriously about them.

The way to test this would be to get two friends into the same lobby on separate squads. Stand Gibraltar with his face against a wall, stand a friend around the corner to his left. The friend has to aim at the space that Gibraltar is going to sidestep into - When Gib starts strafing into view they should both pre-fire and record what happens. Measure the time between Gib getting hit and the friend getting hit in milliseconds and repeat the experiment with another wide character (Pathfinder).

What would you guess the difference in those two times would be? My guess would be that it's the sort of amount of time that only someone like Shroud can complain about, as most of us don't have the reaction time where the difference matters.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one mate. You say that because Respawn haven't said they're going to normalise the characters that it isn't worth talking about. They haven't said they'll increase the size of his shield or anything else :S All suggestions should be assessed on merit, especially if there's a problem with the game which their current strategies aren't helping with after multiple revisions of buffs and amendments.

Just to say : thanks again for a respectful discussion.   I've said my piece and I think we both understand each other but we're coming at it from different angles so there's probably nothing I can contribute further without some new info or ideas so I'll not add any more of my noise here 🙂

@Anlbrd wrote: "I started playing FPS on PC over 20 years ago."

Sorry for assuming you were a console only player. Every game is different though, so I think you would find quickly enough that I am correct about Gibraltar being underwhelming on PC if you started playing on PC again. It's nearly impossible to theoretically think your way to the right answer. Reality is practically always a bit different than theory.

@Anlbrd wrote "Gibraltar isn't any slower than any other character. He walks/runs/ADS at exactly the same speed."

It seems as though you are not really reading what I am writing. Please read what I write first, then respond. We have discussed this before so you know that I know they have the same movement speed. If Gibraltar want to use his arm shield he can't move fast, because he has to ADS for quite a while before his shield appears. Maybe you don't know this, but there is a delay before it pops up so you can't jump in and out of ADS without a penalty, which motivates slow movement speed. He also needs to spend more time moving into cover than other legends since he has a bigger player model, and this makes hiding take more time for him which is one way of defining something as slow. So yes, if you want to use him as intended, meaning him using his arm shield, Gibraltar is slower, no doubt.

I've responded to all your arguments several times from different angles, but seems you are not reading what I write so you just end up repeating yourself and misinterpreting what I am saying. Thanks for the discussion though. Have a nice one!