Re: Knockdowns and damage give RP in ranked

@Ironflower196 There's a few things to consider if you're wanting to get them to change or improve the current system that aren't a priority to you or me (the users) and/or would go against the improvements we feel should be added.

Player engagement - With the introduction of rank splits keeping players to carry on grinding or to return for the second half of the season. Anything that effects this negatively would be turned away. One of my issues is predator being determined by time played now as some of us have full time jobs and family that can't play x amounts of hours everyday. Skill should be the determining factor in the highest brackets of ranked, not time played where kids, unemployed or those that play games for a living (streamers) have a much higher chance of maintaining pred.

Increasing the amount of kills for RP - Not only would this bring you to your respective rank faster but also potentially being detrimental to what i mention above as you would have no need to keep playing once you plateau. It would also increase the speed of matches with kills being a priority over placement also being a negative multiplier for player engagement. This would lead to more inconsistency between matches where fights are increased early on (fighting less equipped teams for easier RP early game) but leaving 5 teams after the first ring leading to dull moments throughout the rest of the matches when they want the action evenly spread out.

The very late changes we saw for this seasons ranked also reflect this.

Servers and connection - With the only choice we currently have being the lobbies data center that you connect to but the algorithm puts you in a different regions server anyway (or sub optimal server providers) to either accommodate SBMM, reduce que times and other factors with people potentially from a different continent in your matches effecting gameplay. This inconsistency is what killed ranked PC with many ''pro'' players leaving Apex quite early on. This is without mentioning the poor netcode, server tickrate, bug, exploits, prioritising bad connection clients and a whole host of other problems with the current competitive mode and Apex in general.

Because of these things and many, many more.. They'll likely never change ranked into something that i would consider seriously investing my time and effort into again. This is from someone who kept pushing hard for a ranked mode during season 1 on AHQ, achieved pred in season 2 (series 1), didn't play much season 3 ranked because of dashboarding/alt f4 exploit and lost interest while watching it slowly degenerate with very minor changes into what we have today.

Apex is and always will be just a casual cash cow game so treat it like such. 

Edit: Typos with some probably left as last night was a late one. Cheers! 🍺

(deleted)

@kellanammann Having a range limit wouldn't be fair on the teammate who is covering with a sniper. He cracks 2 or 3 telling you to push and you squad wipe but he gets no RP? Granted this is alleviated slightly with assists but sometimes having that cover for area denial might not get a knock in time depending on situation or range of engagement. Or there is no limit and you just spam charge rifle until damage is done per person and move on. Sniper loadout will, not exclusively but on average across most skill brackets, do more damage throughout the match. Also, this damage farming meta wouldn't be good for ranked, at all.

For all the reasons i specified in my previous post and many more i could go into, it is casual game. It can be labelled a competitive (e-sports) game as we do have ALGS with e sport teams that compete but on the whole and throughout the industry it's a bit of a joke in that respect. I wish that wasn't the case but it's a direction that Respawn haven't taken seriously and most who are involved in that scene will tell you the same. Being played on RNG with server connection because you can only connect to lobby data center is a big problem for a truly competitive game, let alone general stability and the rest of the problems we face.

I absolutely agree with you though, i think we shouldn't have a cap on kills at all. I think it's ridiculous that if you land contested and take that team out and get some more within a few minutes you logically have to wait it out till near the end of the round for placement RP. It's boring, encourages ratting and doesn't reward those that would be able to climb faster. If you destroy half the lobby you should be climbing much faster. I'm just covering why it's not changed much because they want to draw it out both across the match and your engagement in the season.

@apostolateofDOOM Alright so here's something I didn't realize until I googled it, you do get the same amount of RP for assists as you do for kills, as you should, so that's good. I also figured out a solution to your problem of effective snipers that stick with teammates but hang back a bit not being rewarded, and also your stereotypical Octane who runs off and dies by himself trying to get into senseless fights: They could just make it so that damage is only rewarded if you're doing damage to the same enemy team(s) as your teammates instead of the range limiter. This will encourage teams to stick together and still achieve the goal of the person doing the most damage climbing ranks faster. That sniper you're talking about that's really the hero of that squad wipe would be rewarded for the damage that he did, not just assists. That's my point. Sniping is insanely risky in this game anyway. As soon as you shoot the whole freakin lobby hears you and rolls up to 3rd party you. There are also way more close and mid range engagements in this game than long range. Because of map design and legend mobility, the vast majority of engagements start out at close range, and long-mid range engagements quickly become mid-close range engagements, as there's plenty of cover all over every map to push with or retreat to, which becomes even easier and safer if you're with an Octane or Pathfinder, Wraith or Bangalore, which almost every squad is, and people want to be near enemies they knock to thirst and shield swap so snipers with long range optics are at a direct disadvantage and as rare as unicorns already.

     I wouldn't even care if they don't reward knockdowns and I'm willing to recede that idea, because I get that you have to wipe the squad for it to really mean anything. My main argument is that damage simply needs to be rewarded to seperate the kids doing 20 damage to someone and the guy who dealt 500 damage to the whole team, because obviously there's a difference in their skill and it should be acknowledged, not rewarded equally. There's also the massive issue of the kids that just don't stick with their team and put you at a huge disadvantage when they run off and die by themselves. If you got rewarded for damage that you're doing to the same enemies as your teammates, there would be way less of that.

     You also seem to be underestimating the natural aggression in this game. Knockdowns get pushed 90% of the time because you want to wipe the squad while they're at a number/HP disadvantage, and so many legends are designed for pushing. Hell, there's an octane on practically every team I play with.

     Casual is casual, ranked is competitive. Your reasons just don't bear any significance to this particular issue. I have relatively cheap internet and I never lag in this game. Ever. I also only disconnect from about 1 out of every 300+ games I play. If you lag and disconnect alot, then work harder to afford better internet speeds. That's a you problem not an Apex problem.

     If they want to have more fights happening early-on, they would add more RP for kills, assists, knockdowns and/or damage, as that would add a greater incentive to drop, loot up quickly and get into a fight right away. This would also make later circles less populated by octanes ditching their teammates and teams that hid all game for their placement bonuses, and reduce the number of squads mid game that come to easily 3rd party you. I simply want to make the ranks more accurate and I'm entirely positive that this would do it.

@kellanammann I think you misunderstand what i'm saying or don't understand how things work on several things so i'll break them down. I don't say this in a condescending way at all but so i can better understand your points and perhaps educate you on some things just i have been taught and still learning.

If i get anything wrong then anyone feel free to correct me as i'm honestly not the most tech savy when it comes to networking matters.

This has absolutely nothing to do with my/your internet or hardware which will potentially make the problem worse like these kids trying to play on their wifi running the bare min specs...I'm not talking about that. My computers a i9 9900k, 32gb ram, rtx 3080 on a 144hz monitor with the best internet available in my area. I've spoke to my ISP several times, altered settings, done a utrace and opened ports for the game and set everything on low and performance to get the very best i can out my rig but this IS an Apex issue as many others can verify due to the apparent limitations of the game. Although i personally find that's a bad excuse for not wanting to invest more cash as it's not a collection event they'll get a return from. Not that they don't make enough with hundred plus buck heirlooms but anyway..

When you select the data center when the game loads, this is done through Multiplays Hybrid Cloud that can put you into different servers and by different providers such as Google Cloud and AWS servers. The performance readout you get in on the top right of your screen ingame if you have it selected that's to the lobby (data center) not to the actual match (server) itself. The data center can still change from the ones you have selected for SBMM, reducing que times and other things.

Some of these are notoriously slow and not up to the task even with the limitations already in place ie 20tick servers, poor netcode, lag compensation in the games simulation (giving players with worse connection client priority) ect..What makes this worse is every time you or i join a new game it could be with a different one and also potentially under load effecting performance. This is what i meant by RNG with servers and why professional players have a grievance when it comes to ranked because stutter, slow mo, hitreg and whatever else when it cost you RP is infuriating. Unless we get a direct server selector or a lot more dedicated servers i doubt this will change and why it's been ignored up till now.

The reason i brought this up previously was to say although it's a ''competitive mode'' for Apex it's not something they take seriously so you shouldn't too.

Back to the points of discussion because this is going off topic. RP for damage..

Those better players will overtime pretty consistently be downing and finishing more than those that get a lucky kill or assist here and there. With the recent changes to KC and the already open space in WE and Olympus there is enough places with kill zones you can camp with a charge rifle and just farm damage easily.  No skill required.  The pace of engagements will be slowed if they do any more to encourage that. They have already made sniper towers and removed a lot of cover from previous seasons and i don't think it would be healthy for the game to have another COD style snipe from other side of map as a go to playstyle for competitive or even ranked play. Movement in Apex is what makes it unique to other BRs.

Also, Respawn DON'T want you to have more RP for kills, assists, damage or anything else as that would put you in your respective rank faster, increase the action early game while having more lulls throughout the match which doesn't bode well for streaming and competitions. They want to draw it out (both the match and your time in ranked) as much as possible.

I don't like it but that's the way they're doing it.

I'll apologise in advance for repeating anything said previously but your reply didn't seem to focus on some of the things that you would need to or were dismissed that i mentioned. I'm just explaining that if you actually wanted the discussion to lead to change then these are some of the things you would need to take into consideration and not that they were my view or preference, which i hopefully laid out clearer and also the things that Respawn are prioritising, or in other cases not.

@apostolateofDOOM Most of that has nothing to do with rewarding RP for damage bro you are getting way off track. I understand your frustrations with data centers but I don't see what any of that has to do with this particular problem. What I'm gathering of your thoughts on the topic of RP for damage is that "Respawn doesn't care enough to make ranked more accurate so they can cater to sweaty streamers who can eat 3rd parties for breakfast because it's more interesting to watch them do 5k damage with an SMG and a shotgun". Well they should. There are more players that want to climb ranks than the people already at the top and right now it's just not possible without convincing players in higher ranks to take you on as a charity case. I'm just upset because my teammates aren't pulling their weight and it's causing my rank to suffer. It just seems like you're here complaining about an entirely seperate issue.

     Like I said before, people camping open areas and kill zones with snipers wouldn't be a legitimate method of farming damage RP, because there would be a limit to how much damage per enemy is rewarded with RP, so very few people would do it. You might get a few kills and some damage here and there but with how loud snipers are in this game you're practically guaranteed to get 3rd, 4th 5th partied and so on, virtually guaranteeing that you're throwing away any significant chance at a placement bonus, and the win which obviously, the overwhelming majority of players are going for. To get multiple teams to come fight you, you would have to be pretty close to the middle of the map, and that's even more areas around you that thirsty Octanes and Pathfinders are gonna come 3rd party you after hearing your sniper explode from a mile away. Once they catch you with your sniper out at point blank with their shotgun and SMG you're screwed anyway. This would ONLY reward the hardest hitter in the engagement more than the weak teammates that are doing barely any damage and getting the same amount of RP for assists and easy kill-steals.

     As for the lulls in the mid game, if they'd just reduce the audibility range of gunshots and explosions that would fix that as well as greatly reduce 3rd partying. Screw the argument of "it's a gun or explosion, it's supposed to be loud". It negatively impacts the game and I'd much rather have less 3rd partying than "in real life gun go bang and bomb go boom". Apex isn't anywhere near realistic.

     People enjoy playing Octane and Pathfinder and using SMGs and shotguns (so that they're comfortable if they get caught at close range which is practically inevitable) waaayyyyy too much to throw insta-rushing CQB out the window just to snipe and let the whole entire map know where they're at. It's like ringing a 3rd party church bell, and it's why I and many others never snipe. People are still going to play the way they do now, because this is a fast-paced game where you play to win. As Pathfinder says, "Losing isn't fun. That's why I don't do it."

I'd like to continue this conversation but try to stay on-topic, man. You're losing me.

@kellanammann Usually i do this on PC but on my phone remembering snippets while distracted and steaming.. After rereading previous posts i admit i went on a rant. Was a good weekend though. 🥳

I'm hanging today so i'll be brief.. Damage on it's own could still be farmed easily. It would be way to easy to get a few pot shots from high ground and bail to do the same again with the map changes. Reduce gunshot sounds to reduce third parties is something that's been suggested before and a good idea. Having RP distributed to your team calculated by damage done to those finished could also work but i don't know how they would work that with 3rd party kills and assists..

I'll come back to this thread tomorrow when i recovered.

@apostolateofDOOM But you couldn't farm more than, say, 200 damage per enemy, so you couldn't just farm damage. You would just be rewarded for doing more than your teammates per engagement so you can get out of lower ranks and not be seen as equal to people doing way less damage than you.

     You really wouldn't see people camping chokepoints with snipers because they're begging to get third partied. Sniping kinda sucks in a game this fast paced. Hardly anyone even does it. There are too many good reasons not to.

     It doesn't matter if you're the 3rd party, you should still be rewarded for damage. The frustrating part lies in the fact that if the squad you just cracked all the shields on gets 3rd partied, you don't get $#¡+ for RP. Assuming what players are gonna do isn't a good reason not to test this out.

Hi @apostolateofDOOM, @kellanammann, you guys are making a super nice contribution here.

Some time ago I tried to compile several ideas to make a better ranked mode and made this post: https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Feedback/SBMM-How-to-Improve-It-Contribution-from-a-Software-Engineer/m-p/8781430#M42088 please feel free to contribute.

Now after some time, i think there is a very easy way for Respawn to fix ranked: REMOVING TIER DEMOTION PROTECTION. this very little thing would make a huge difference.

And about knowckdowns: I do believe they should count as RP. There are several reasons why but the most important is that you are removing variables from the battle field making survival easier for you and your teammates. This makes a huge difference, and must be rewarded. Even if you die because your teammates don't capitalize.

Thank you for such an interesting post, we should have more like this around here.

I would never touch ranked again if they reward damage as rp or knockdowns. This defeats the entire purpose of how the system has been designed and operated from the start. This kinda is like rewarding a bad player points they dont deserve. The game i highly doubt will ever cater to users who dont want to find pre mades to make their ranking up even easier then it is now which is quite easy tbh. Silver- plat are all easy to get to fast like for average player. Until you hit diamond 3 or so is when the real challenge sets in. 

Lets face it. This is asking to reward less skillful users then rewarding those who put effort to be where they are. This system suggested by the OP would inflate false numbers of true plats/diamonds/master/pred. The system is designed around skill game play and following through with your fights. This is not a ranked problem this is a user problem of not having the skill to advance or not making pre mades to ensure a better out come. Why reward people who does do these in a competitive game? It is a team game. 

BTW i solo qued to plat and will soon solo que to diamond. I work very hard to solo que these lobbies. I would hate to see those with less effort put in get rp that all of us work quite hard for. 

@E9ine_ACSo let me get this straight... You think that rewarding damage with RP would be "rewarding less skillful users", but giving the guy who did 1 damage the same amount of RP as the guy who did 300 damage isn't...
Are you stupid, or just dumb? Explain to me how tf it would "inflate false numbers". I would also hate to see those that put in less effort get to higher ranks faster. That's exactly why this change needs to be made, because someone with 60 damage per game is rewarded the same as someone with 3,000, so long as he hits each enemy that his teammate kills with a SINGLE bullet. How can you not see that as an issue?

@E9ine_ACThe damage/kill/knockdown/steal problem can be easily solved by the "Assist counts as kill" that games like Battlefield have since the beginning. Also a "knockdown assist counts as knockdown" will prevent RP stealing (on purpose or not). It's not so easy to farm damage anyway.. you don't see that much 4k badge around there...

Additionally, the "learning curve" does not have the normal distribution shape. Since the more know, the more difficult becomes to learn something new, most of the population should be in the lesser levels instead of having 70% of people in gold. This is also a clear indicator that something is very wrong with rank system. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have to add the "masters" tier.

All in all, I believe 2 very simple things would improve the system a lot:

1- Removing tier demotion protection
2- Adding 8 RP cost to bronze (this is fundamental, because whatever you do, you make RP anyway, and you require absolutely NO ability to climb to silver)

Best.

*EDIT*
You actually do not require much ability to get to Platinum, you can just play the rat and endure until the end, rather later than sooner you will be platinum. I think this is the worst fact of the current rank system.

@kellanammann I think available RP distribution needs to be equal each match which wouldn't be the case unless it was calculated through kills or limited to the same amount as kill/assist but let's say we go with your suggestions and have 200 damage give the same RP as 1 kill/assist, hypothetically.

I land at crane with PF where i pick up a charge rifle or any sniper, take high ground and snipe those at gauntlet, bit between, market and all surrounding areas ect.. I could very easily get 1k damage (equivalent to 5 kills and almost all available RP excluding placement) without any knocks before the first ring and if i didn't make that amount i just go to another area to do the same with minimal risk to myself and making no contribution to removing threats for the remainder of the match. Now all i need to do is rat it out and go for placement.

@RayleenKovacs You put some time and effort there which i don't have currently but i'll gladly take a look in the next few days.

I don't like tier demotion protection but it would be easily exploitable otherwise and it's already bad enough dropping 1.5 ranks each split just for user engagement sake and a level limit would be the best protection from smurfs in bronze but i have no objections to a small cost for match entry in that tier.

The major flaw with ranked and rp it self is the assist timer. I have made mentions on this before that i can shoot someone still be engage team member downs him and i get no assist. If they just increase the timer on when it will give rp then it would be much better system. 

But to reward someone for sniping and doing damage is laughable. The point of ranked is competitive game play and to win. How is it rewarding or would it be rewarding to half arse the game and get a lot more rp then normal? 

My point stands a majority of ranked players are hard stuck in gold rank or lower. This says everything we need to know honestly. Thats it is not the rp system that is failing the player its the player failing them self. I do not sugarcoat things I say it how it is. I have zero problems sitting here saying the reason around 96% of the population is stuck in gold or lower is because their skill does not show to allow them to advance. Those of us who go to plat-pred work very hard for our rewards and rp. Why pull a chunk of the population out of their % bracket of their skill level because they can do damage at a distance or get rp for knocking someone. 

I personally would not ask for the ranked system to be changed if im stuck in a certain bracket rank. I would improve myself to ensure i can climb out myself. Not be handed free rp for pointless game play. 

@apostolateofDOOMYou sir, did not read the entire thread where I mentioned limiting the amount of RP you can gain from damaging a single enemy. And good luck with your charge rifle. The whole map will be right on top of you in no time and you'll be at a severe disadvantage at close range, which most legends can get to either insanely quickly or safely.