Re: Knockdowns and damage give RP in ranked

@kellanammann I think you misunderstand what i'm saying or don't understand how things work on several things so i'll break them down. I don't say this in a condescending way at all but so i can better understand your points and perhaps educate you on some things just i have been taught and still learning.

If i get anything wrong then anyone feel free to correct me as i'm honestly not the most tech savy when it comes to networking matters.

This has absolutely nothing to do with my/your internet or hardware which will potentially make the problem worse like these kids trying to play on their wifi running the bare min specs...I'm not talking about that. My computers a i9 9900k, 32gb ram, rtx 3080 on a 144hz monitor with the best internet available in my area. I've spoke to my ISP several times, altered settings, done a utrace and opened ports for the game and set everything on low and performance to get the very best i can out my rig but this IS an Apex issue as many others can verify due to the apparent limitations of the game. Although i personally find that's a bad excuse for not wanting to invest more cash as it's not a collection event they'll get a return from. Not that they don't make enough with hundred plus buck heirlooms but anyway..

When you select the data center when the game loads, this is done through Multiplays Hybrid Cloud that can put you into different servers and by different providers such as Google Cloud and AWS servers. The performance readout you get in on the top right of your screen ingame if you have it selected that's to the lobby (data center) not to the actual match (server) itself. The data center can still change from the ones you have selected for SBMM, reducing que times and other things.

Some of these are notoriously slow and not up to the task even with the limitations already in place ie 20tick servers, poor netcode, lag compensation in the games simulation (giving players with worse connection client priority) ect..What makes this worse is every time you or i join a new game it could be with a different one and also potentially under load effecting performance. This is what i meant by RNG with servers and why professional players have a grievance when it comes to ranked because stutter, slow mo, hitreg and whatever else when it cost you RP is infuriating. Unless we get a direct server selector or a lot more dedicated servers i doubt this will change and why it's been ignored up till now.

The reason i brought this up previously was to say although it's a ''competitive mode'' for Apex it's not something they take seriously so you shouldn't too.

Back to the points of discussion because this is going off topic. RP for damage..

Those better players will overtime pretty consistently be downing and finishing more than those that get a lucky kill or assist here and there. With the recent changes to KC and the already open space in WE and Olympus there is enough places with kill zones you can camp with a charge rifle and just farm damage easily.  No skill required.  The pace of engagements will be slowed if they do any more to encourage that. They have already made sniper towers and removed a lot of cover from previous seasons and i don't think it would be healthy for the game to have another COD style snipe from other side of map as a go to playstyle for competitive or even ranked play. Movement in Apex is what makes it unique to other BRs.

Also, Respawn DON'T want you to have more RP for kills, assists, damage or anything else as that would put you in your respective rank faster, increase the action early game while having more lulls throughout the match which doesn't bode well for streaming and competitions. They want to draw it out (both the match and your time in ranked) as much as possible.

I don't like it but that's the way they're doing it.

I'll apologise in advance for repeating anything said previously but your reply didn't seem to focus on some of the things that you would need to or were dismissed that i mentioned. I'm just explaining that if you actually wanted the discussion to lead to change then these are some of the things you would need to take into consideration and not that they were my view or preference, which i hopefully laid out clearer and also the things that Respawn are prioritising, or in other cases not.

@apostolateofDOOM Most of that has nothing to do with rewarding RP for damage bro you are getting way off track. I understand your frustrations with data centers but I don't see what any of that has to do with this particular problem. What I'm gathering of your thoughts on the topic of RP for damage is that "Respawn doesn't care enough to make ranked more accurate so they can cater to sweaty streamers who can eat 3rd parties for breakfast because it's more interesting to watch them do 5k damage with an SMG and a shotgun". Well they should. There are more players that want to climb ranks than the people already at the top and right now it's just not possible without convincing players in higher ranks to take you on as a charity case. I'm just upset because my teammates aren't pulling their weight and it's causing my rank to suffer. It just seems like you're here complaining about an entirely seperate issue.

     Like I said before, people camping open areas and kill zones with snipers wouldn't be a legitimate method of farming damage RP, because there would be a limit to how much damage per enemy is rewarded with RP, so very few people would do it. You might get a few kills and some damage here and there but with how loud snipers are in this game you're practically guaranteed to get 3rd, 4th 5th partied and so on, virtually guaranteeing that you're throwing away any significant chance at a placement bonus, and the win which obviously, the overwhelming majority of players are going for. To get multiple teams to come fight you, you would have to be pretty close to the middle of the map, and that's even more areas around you that thirsty Octanes and Pathfinders are gonna come 3rd party you after hearing your sniper explode from a mile away. Once they catch you with your sniper out at point blank with their shotgun and SMG you're screwed anyway. This would ONLY reward the hardest hitter in the engagement more than the weak teammates that are doing barely any damage and getting the same amount of RP for assists and easy kill-steals.

     As for the lulls in the mid game, if they'd just reduce the audibility range of gunshots and explosions that would fix that as well as greatly reduce 3rd partying. Screw the argument of "it's a gun or explosion, it's supposed to be loud". It negatively impacts the game and I'd much rather have less 3rd partying than "in real life gun go bang and bomb go boom". Apex isn't anywhere near realistic.

     People enjoy playing Octane and Pathfinder and using SMGs and shotguns (so that they're comfortable if they get caught at close range which is practically inevitable) waaayyyyy too much to throw insta-rushing CQB out the window just to snipe and let the whole entire map know where they're at. It's like ringing a 3rd party church bell, and it's why I and many others never snipe. People are still going to play the way they do now, because this is a fast-paced game where you play to win. As Pathfinder says, "Losing isn't fun. That's why I don't do it."

I'd like to continue this conversation but try to stay on-topic, man. You're losing me.

@kellanammann Usually i do this on PC but on my phone remembering snippets while distracted and steaming.. After rereading previous posts i admit i went on a rant. Was a good weekend though. 🥳

I'm hanging today so i'll be brief.. Damage on it's own could still be farmed easily. It would be way to easy to get a few pot shots from high ground and bail to do the same again with the map changes. Reduce gunshot sounds to reduce third parties is something that's been suggested before and a good idea. Having RP distributed to your team calculated by damage done to those finished could also work but i don't know how they would work that with 3rd party kills and assists..

I'll come back to this thread tomorrow when i recovered.

@apostolateofDOOM But you couldn't farm more than, say, 200 damage per enemy, so you couldn't just farm damage. You would just be rewarded for doing more than your teammates per engagement so you can get out of lower ranks and not be seen as equal to people doing way less damage than you.

     You really wouldn't see people camping chokepoints with snipers because they're begging to get third partied. Sniping kinda sucks in a game this fast paced. Hardly anyone even does it. There are too many good reasons not to.

     It doesn't matter if you're the 3rd party, you should still be rewarded for damage. The frustrating part lies in the fact that if the squad you just cracked all the shields on gets 3rd partied, you don't get $#¡+ for RP. Assuming what players are gonna do isn't a good reason not to test this out.

Hi @apostolateofDOOM, @kellanammann, you guys are making a super nice contribution here.

Some time ago I tried to compile several ideas to make a better ranked mode and made this post: https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Feedback/SBMM-How-to-Improve-It-Contribution-from-a-Software-Engineer/m-p/8781430#M42088 please feel free to contribute.

Now after some time, i think there is a very easy way for Respawn to fix ranked: REMOVING TIER DEMOTION PROTECTION. this very little thing would make a huge difference.

And about knowckdowns: I do believe they should count as RP. There are several reasons why but the most important is that you are removing variables from the battle field making survival easier for you and your teammates. This makes a huge difference, and must be rewarded. Even if you die because your teammates don't capitalize.

Thank you for such an interesting post, we should have more like this around here.

I would never touch ranked again if they reward damage as rp or knockdowns. This defeats the entire purpose of how the system has been designed and operated from the start. This kinda is like rewarding a bad player points they dont deserve. The game i highly doubt will ever cater to users who dont want to find pre mades to make their ranking up even easier then it is now which is quite easy tbh. Silver- plat are all easy to get to fast like for average player. Until you hit diamond 3 or so is when the real challenge sets in. 

Lets face it. This is asking to reward less skillful users then rewarding those who put effort to be where they are. This system suggested by the OP would inflate false numbers of true plats/diamonds/master/pred. The system is designed around skill game play and following through with your fights. This is not a ranked problem this is a user problem of not having the skill to advance or not making pre mades to ensure a better out come. Why reward people who does do these in a competitive game? It is a team game. 

BTW i solo qued to plat and will soon solo que to diamond. I work very hard to solo que these lobbies. I would hate to see those with less effort put in get rp that all of us work quite hard for. 

@E9ine_ACSo let me get this straight... You think that rewarding damage with RP would be "rewarding less skillful users", but giving the guy who did 1 damage the same amount of RP as the guy who did 300 damage isn't...
Are you stupid, or just dumb? Explain to me how tf it would "inflate false numbers". I would also hate to see those that put in less effort get to higher ranks faster. That's exactly why this change needs to be made, because someone with 60 damage per game is rewarded the same as someone with 3,000, so long as he hits each enemy that his teammate kills with a SINGLE bullet. How can you not see that as an issue?

@E9ine_ACThe damage/kill/knockdown/steal problem can be easily solved by the "Assist counts as kill" that games like Battlefield have since the beginning. Also a "knockdown assist counts as knockdown" will prevent RP stealing (on purpose or not). It's not so easy to farm damage anyway.. you don't see that much 4k badge around there...

Additionally, the "learning curve" does not have the normal distribution shape. Since the more know, the more difficult becomes to learn something new, most of the population should be in the lesser levels instead of having 70% of people in gold. This is also a clear indicator that something is very wrong with rank system. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have to add the "masters" tier.

All in all, I believe 2 very simple things would improve the system a lot:

1- Removing tier demotion protection
2- Adding 8 RP cost to bronze (this is fundamental, because whatever you do, you make RP anyway, and you require absolutely NO ability to climb to silver)

Best.

*EDIT*
You actually do not require much ability to get to Platinum, you can just play the rat and endure until the end, rather later than sooner you will be platinum. I think this is the worst fact of the current rank system.

@kellanammann I think available RP distribution needs to be equal each match which wouldn't be the case unless it was calculated through kills or limited to the same amount as kill/assist but let's say we go with your suggestions and have 200 damage give the same RP as 1 kill/assist, hypothetically.

I land at crane with PF where i pick up a charge rifle or any sniper, take high ground and snipe those at gauntlet, bit between, market and all surrounding areas ect.. I could very easily get 1k damage (equivalent to 5 kills and almost all available RP excluding placement) without any knocks before the first ring and if i didn't make that amount i just go to another area to do the same with minimal risk to myself and making no contribution to removing threats for the remainder of the match. Now all i need to do is rat it out and go for placement.

@RayleenKovacs You put some time and effort there which i don't have currently but i'll gladly take a look in the next few days.

I don't like tier demotion protection but it would be easily exploitable otherwise and it's already bad enough dropping 1.5 ranks each split just for user engagement sake and a level limit would be the best protection from smurfs in bronze but i have no objections to a small cost for match entry in that tier.

The major flaw with ranked and rp it self is the assist timer. I have made mentions on this before that i can shoot someone still be engage team member downs him and i get no assist. If they just increase the timer on when it will give rp then it would be much better system. 

But to reward someone for sniping and doing damage is laughable. The point of ranked is competitive game play and to win. How is it rewarding or would it be rewarding to half arse the game and get a lot more rp then normal? 

My point stands a majority of ranked players are hard stuck in gold rank or lower. This says everything we need to know honestly. Thats it is not the rp system that is failing the player its the player failing them self. I do not sugarcoat things I say it how it is. I have zero problems sitting here saying the reason around 96% of the population is stuck in gold or lower is because their skill does not show to allow them to advance. Those of us who go to plat-pred work very hard for our rewards and rp. Why pull a chunk of the population out of their % bracket of their skill level because they can do damage at a distance or get rp for knocking someone. 

I personally would not ask for the ranked system to be changed if im stuck in a certain bracket rank. I would improve myself to ensure i can climb out myself. Not be handed free rp for pointless game play. 

@apostolateofDOOMYou sir, did not read the entire thread where I mentioned limiting the amount of RP you can gain from damaging a single enemy. And good luck with your charge rifle. The whole map will be right on top of you in no time and you'll be at a severe disadvantage at close range, which most legends can get to either insanely quickly or safely.

@E9ine_ACThen why don't you say "no man, the OP thought of a great way to prevent this which is limited damage RP per enemy?" This is my thread, I can respond to whatever I want to. And to answer your question of "how would it be rewarding to half arse the game and get alot more RP than usual?"
Because then when you do 4,000 damage (which I would not consider half arsing at all) and your teammates do about 1,000 each, but land a bullet on everyone you knock, or they knock after you cracked their red Evo and got them to 20 health, you would get more RP than they would because you deserve more. Enough said.

@kellanammannWhat part did i miss? The very first line in your last reply to me..

''@apostolateofDOOM But you couldn't farm more than, say, 200 damage per enemy, so you couldn't just farm damage.''

Irrespective of the fact that you could farm more damage if you allow them to heal, i assumed you meant that 200 damage would be the equivalent in RP for one kill/assist as you're advocating damage instead of kills for RP.

If that's not the case then how would you implement it?

I don't know if you play or even watch competitive matches but initially farming damage early game just to charge your evo is a perfectly normal and valid tactic and it's also viable late game too depending on ring location and rotations which has already had complaints from pro players as it slows the pace down.

A sniping meta in general is usually frowned upon in Apex for various reasons and your suggestion will only encourage it and make it much worse.

I do agree that ranked is a grind that should have the split removed and also preds shouldn't be limited to those that can play very often to maintain the limited spaces at the top as it should be based on skill, not time played.

Your suggestion and your last reply about the charge rifle says to me you're a D3 stuck player that doesn't understand or appreciate the team work involved at that level in which case you honestly don't deserve to climb higher until you find a decent team and learn to coordinate with them.

Edit: Changed shouldn't to should in ''I do agree that ranked is a grind that should have the split removed''. 

@apostolateofDOOM Okay so you aren't getting it. No, you couldn't get more RP from the same enemy if they heal. Maximum per enemy means maximum per enemy per game. What I'm saying is you get like 1 RP (this number could vary by rank but probably wouldn't need to) for every 10 damage you do to an enemy, up to a maximum of roughly 200 damage per enemy per game. (a full level 3 shield and full health worth of damage). This is so that if you do 190 damage to an enemy and your teammate does 10, you GET more than him because you DID more than him.

I'm not advocating RP for damage INSTEAD of kills/assists, I'm advocating RP for damage AND kills/assists. Respawn may or may not have to raise the RP requirements for every rank a little bit, and I think it would also help to make it possible to get demoted from, say, diamond to plat or from plat to gold, etc. Then the better players are actually where they're supposed to be regardless of how poorly their teammates play, and sh*tty octanes that run and hide their way to the final circles for placement bonuses to get to diamond when their combat skill level is gold will get sent back to gold, because they aren't doing enough damage to maintain RP requirements.

With this system in place, snipers would NOT become the meta. They are already super loud, and if they leave it that way, no one's gonna ring those 3rd party dinner bells.

I would also be fine with the removal of Evo shields because that's the real issue when it comes to snipers camping at long range (even though it's easy to push towards or away from quickly if you're using Octane, Pathfinder, Wraith, Loba, Horizon, Don't assume that I'm stuck in any rank. That's a sh*tty and wildly assumptive thing to say. I'm just simply trying to make ranked more accurate, as well as easier to climb for players who are actually competent, for the good of everyone who slings out hella damage but gets bad teammates all the god damn time, and gets fu*ked because they can't take care of their guys, and then the good player who pulled his own weight has to hopelessly attempt and fail to 1v2/1v3, all for no reward on the damage he did for his knockdown and the damage he did to the guys his teammates failed to kill. BS.

     You shouldn't have to have/use a mic. The ping system is designed for randoms without headsets to effectively communicate, and yet it's astounding how many idiots just straight up ignore pings and requests when you fill, even in plat-diamond. You also shouldn't be expected to have the time to play tons of apex at the beginning of the season to scrounge for other good players with full time jobs in lower ranks before they rank up and no longer get matched up with you automatically, and nobody wants to play with someone in a lower rank than them.

@kellanammann How would you tie in RP for damage with kills when you were saying earlier that your issue was teammates that couldn't finish the last guy? You've excluded knocks so how would that work? Even if you accounted knocks and your team got RP but they revived them mid fight or later do you not get anything in the next engagement or your teammate potentially getting more second time round? That wouldn't make sense as you would be potentially fighting squads later on and not be getting anything from it.

Having a multiplier from your damage if you get the kill still doesn't address some of the things you said earlier plus there would be lots of other things to consider if they did that. Doing it like that would promote snipers and long range engagements with mobility legends as it's far less risky than QCQ.

You saying otherwise doesn't make it true.

Just as you keep saying tier demotion would improve things when i have already told you several times that would be exploited.

You're also missing things out like team composition where some defensive legends might not get as much damage as offensive ones but still provide a crucial role for their team. They must climb slower now?

The ping system is ok for pubs but not to be used exclusively in a competitive format as it's way to limited. Btw, I couldn't care less if you're bronze or pred and me saying you're likely stuck in a lower rank is not meant to insult you, if i assume you're in plat or diamond it's because you keep saying things that would favour a solo player that can't progress as those that do have no issues.

Those last things you mentioned don't even come into it in higher ranks as any player that has a chance of climbing through diamond can get through plat solo easily/quickly and from then on can lobby up with master/preds. A competent player isn't just one with game sense and mechanically skilled but one who works well with a team which is something given by your comments is the problem that needs work, not the RP system.  

     Oh my god talking to you is like talking to a wall. I can barely even understand what you're asking. It's that unfathomable to me that after all that I've written you still can't figure it out. How do you not understand this?

First of all, forget the f***ing knockdowns entirely. Secondly, my issue is NOT that my teammates don't finish the last guy, my 2 issues are that:

1. My teammates either don't kill anybody, barely do damage and get knocked, yet get the same amount of RP for the assist when I have to pull their weight for them and do way more damage to the guy that they only did 25 damage to while I'm at low health or shield because the guy I knocked was almost good enough to kill me.

2. I do almost all of the damage for a knockdown and they put 2 bullets into the guy to knock him and also get the same amount of RP.

     It's really, REALLY simple and you're overcomplicating it for a reason that's beyond me.

     No, revived enemies will not continue to reward RP for damaging them. If you do 225 damage to an enemy (max health and red Evo), that damage is rewarded with RP. You can no longer get RP by damaging that enemy if they get revived, or if they heal, but your teammates can if they haven't done 225 damage to them yet. You still get RP for eliminating them, or for an assist if your teammate does. You get it ?

     You said "you would potentially be fighting squads later but not be getting anything from it." YOU ALREADY GOT ALL OF THE RP FROM IT. Kill him if you want more. You don't win games by damaging people, but the amount of damage you do needs to be rewarded to seperate the guy who cracks a whole team's shields and the guy who landed 1 bullet on each of them. Like I said, there would have to be a max RP for each enemy that you damage so that you can't just crack a guys shield with a sentinel over and over again and go from bronze to pred in a single game.

     It's not a multiplier for damage, it's just RP that correlates directly to damage, up to a maximum per enemy. No multiplication is involved. You can't be expected to thirst a kill at any range further than 10m if they have a level 2 knockdown shield or better, or kill a whole team by yourself when both of your teammates are down and the other 2 enemies only have to kill you.

     Don't tell me there would be lots of other things to consider, tell me what the things to consider are, I'll consider them, and then prove that this is the better decision. It's almost like you're purposefully sounding vague because you know I've slapped away everything else you've tried to throw at this thread with ease.

     You say tier demotion would be exploited. So if some smurf gets demoted from Diamond on purpose and does 5k damage in a Silver lobby, what's a way that they could get quickly shot back up into Diamond? GEE, I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE IF THE 5K DAMAGE THAT THEY DID GOT THEM ALOT OF RP? Damage for RP would fix the smurfing problem too lol.

     A defensive legend is never at a disadvantage in terms of damage capability. How you play with legends is up to you, and abilities are merely the flesh of this game, gunfights are the bone structure. Caustic is defensive, but his ult is a throwable gas grenade. He's arguably one of the highest damage dealers in the game. Gibby is slightly behind him, but his gun shield is insane in a gunfight, and he also makes it rain explosions, and both of them have the fortified perk which helps alot in gunfights. Even a Wattson can do tons of damage if they're good with the guns that they're using, they strategically play the circles, and they force/bait other teams into positional disadvantages with their fence. Alot of people also seem to forget that her ult is always 1 accelerant away and blocks all incoming ordnance on top of recharging your shields. Sure all 3 are significantly more situational, but they excel much greater in defense than all of the others. That's what they're made to do, which, given your comments, sounds like knowing how to play defensive legends and do damage with them is the problem that needs work lmao.

     And on your last point, talking to someone doesn't guarantee that they won't play like s**t, ignore your suggestions, maintain their utter lack of situational awareness, dive head first into the crossfire of 6 teams by themselves just because they hear gunfire, still be a worthless teammate who puts up very little damage, dies, rips off his headset and goes afk while you waste your time redeploying him because you have to on the off chance that he comes back, since not being at a 2v3 disadvantage is your only realistic chance to win, or he doesn't go afk and he just does it again after you redeploy him, supposing you even feel like trying to grab his worthless banner, which most of the time you don't feel like risking your potential placement bonus to do. When one of your teammates pushes alone, even if the other agrees that it's a stupid deathwish, you both pretty much have to push with him, because even though you know it's suicide, if they die, you're subjected to 2v3s for the remainder of the game and you're screwed anyway.

     Feel free to admit I won whenever you realize you're repeating yourself or that you're bringing woodchips to a log fight.

@kellanammann I'm repeating it cause you're ignoring important points..

You keep ignoring sniper farming saying you wouldn't get more of them but the introduction of evo has already proved you wrong.

If your teammates kills a person for 1 or 200 damage then they completed the objective which is to reduce the players in the match. Doesn't matter if they win by an inch or a mile, if they down and finish the person removing them from the fight then they deserve RP.

The only possible and reasonable way i can think of they could implement damage into the RP system would be to have a multiplier attached to kills so if you deal 500 damage but your team only do 100 then you would get a lot more for the squad wipe. I say it's complicated because of how they would work that with healing, 3rd parties and coding it but you're clearly dismissive of that idea.

Tier demotion - I could drop multiple tiers, push for badges if that's what i wanted and repeat the process likely multiple times per day. It would completely destroy all tiers in ranked with low full of people who don't belong there chasing badges and higher tiers just full of campers.

Defensive legends aren't at a disadvantage in the damage output but generally play more passively giving their teammates a safe space to fall back to and CQC weapons usually do less damage than sniping which, again, is why i think it's a bad idea.

You're right it's like talking to a wall and coming full circle to what @Balladalidila said, your issue is unskilled randoms by what you keep saying because you don't play with a team of roughly equally skilled players which isn't that hard to do as there's multiple avenues you can get people to play with.

You haven't won anything nor is this competition. You made a suggestion and people are giving their view why it's a bad idea. You're so fixated on being right on what you want that you're ignoring reason beyond belief.