REMOVE MASTIFF ! OMG !

@Peri_Longbow_plz An oversimplification that disproves nothing. I don't mind missing a few shots with a havoc at close range because my target wilI likely die before I run out of ammo. Missing A single shot with the Mozambique can be a death sentence.

I've also agreed with you about how strong the Mastiff can be early game so repeating that is pointless. 

There is a simple way to disprove my point by using actual numbers but I'm working so can't check it or explain at the moment.

If I'm wrong then TTK is key to proving that.

Math is not always the answer. It can certainly help a lot, but it's far from being the only relevant factor.

The TTK is a varying factor. On some weapons it shows a high relevance, mainly AR's, Pistols or LMG's. Basically anything that fires fast over a medium distance. Having high accuracy paired with a large clipsize and a great DPS is going to decide a proper 1v1 between 2 people. It's different for shotguns, Semi-auto rifles (or marksman rifles), revolvers and snipers. What counts here is the damage per shot, and not the damage per second. I will likely require 2 shots with the Mastiff if I actually hit. Which I have noted isn't too difficult to pull off. 3 shots if it's a fortified character.

I have seen many people that run around with R-99 or Flatline. Both are formidable weapons, yet they didn't land a single shot while I was circling them, shredding them down. That is the exact reason why Mastiff is overpowered in my personal view. Easy to use in my personal opinion, massive damage per shot, quite a sizable magazine size for that damage, and the spread is horizontal, not actually scattered, giving the weapon a maybe unnoticable, yet large advantage when used against chest and shoulders.

My personal thought:

Either turn the horizontal spread into an actual cone, lower the damage from 104 to 95 or reduce the magazine size to 3 maybe.

You can do better damage, if you manage to land all of your shots with R99 or Prowler, which is not that easy, unless you are no-lifer with 10+ experience in FPS games.

If you got a good strafe pattern you can dodge most people SMG/AR shots, but even a bad aimer are going to down you with a Mastiff, because of its huge range of its pellets.

Also it has ridiculous big range and big damage on it.

Mastiff require zero skill to be used.

Also have huge 6 bullets mag and on top of that, you need to reload one in order to shot.

Taking people around trying to run from you with a Mastiff is piece of cake. You just ADS with 15cm crosshair and thats it.

While with an SMG/Ar there is a big chance people miss at you, even you know how to run.

I can`t count the million situation where i escape on low HP where people are shooting at me(I`m playing Bangalore) with an SMG/Snipers/AR, because you have to aim, but with Mastiff, because of the range i can`t, because rotating the mouse to dodge bullets its not enough, because of the big spread and you still going to take damage, which is lethal on low hp. :D

Also because of the bad servers/tick rates, no weapon beats Mastif on peak and go back. Its just a must in a closed places.

One shot go cover, repeat. Yeah on paper a lot of weapon can outDPS Mastiff, but as i said DPS in this game is just on paper.

I spend plenty of time watching top players and Mastiff is a must 90% of the time. You need just 1 slot for the ammo, which is a big + as well.

And even the best players barely miss with Mastiff, yet they are missing way more shots with PK and way more with EVA8.

Again no weapon should be able to one shot you with an Evo shield, unless is a sniper headshot or a CP weapon.

Also there is no big difference between the Mastiff and the PK atm. Yeah PK can hit for a bit more, but not much difference, yet Mastiff is a normal weapon.

Can we compare any base sniper(with Mastiff you need only bolt, which you can find quite easy) to Kraber for example ? Or compare R301 or Flatline to Devotion ? Yet there is not much difference between the Mastif and the PK.

Again the main problem is the big damage, the big range, and how easy is to use it.

Let me show you this situation:
https://streamable.com/19eb0g

Dolphin here is mad, and kinda start doing .... and refuse to play serious, because he was taking how the game is full with cheaters, and so on on his stream, and at one point he understand that both of his teammates were cheating. :D They openly admit it and something snap in him. :D

So he was just spamming with the Mastiff and not playing much seriously here.

He was trading with the guy, and actually the Pathfinder did a bit more damage with the primary weapon, than the Dolphin, but the time the Pathfinder switch to secondary, he already eat it 2 Mastiff shots, and was at Panic mode, and his aim was throw off by the shots, and the third one drops him, while he couldn`t land a single shot on his secondary weapon, which was a SMG.

This comes the big difference you need to land this SMG shots, because you got 1cm crosshair, with a Mastiff, you just spam and you deal damage, whether its 28, its 56, you get it, even from such range.

Even in a such distance, its just easy to land your mastiff shots.

I got so much similar situation, where i play R99 and a R301. I outland my opponent with the primary weapon, and i`m in this or even further range, and i lost the battle, because he just spam with the Mastiff and land his shots, and got a superior strafe speed, because of in and out in ADS, and i`m ***** with small and slow strafes(where i eat full damage from the Mastiff, because of big range of its pellets) with the R301. And you can`t hipfire in that distance with success.

Yeah sometimes i get a kill if i straight up laser him, but most of the time i just own him, and even in that SMG/AR range, he beats me, because i play Bangalore, which has quite a hitbox, and he is Wraith for example and when your facing him directly its a PAIN to land an AR shots, and he can`t miss, because your ****** with low ADS speed movement.

And before someone said get gud or improve your AIM, while i`m not a PRO and i`m training my aim/movement every single day with 2+ hours routine and i`m pretty much either top 500(on some are top 100) or 1000 in every Kovaak tracking scenario i do. And i`m doing a crazy ones.

@LordloshBang Please limit the number of points you want to bring up because I got lost in all of that. The key points I can see are these.

1. A good strafe pattern can counter AR/SMGs but not the Mastiff.

2. The Mastiff has ridiculous range and big damage shots.

3. The Mastiff requires zero skill.

4. It's lethal against low hp targets even at a distance.

5. It's a strong (strongest?) weapon when it comes to the "peek a boom" tactic.

6. The best players miss more with PK than with Mastiff

7. There's no difference between the PK and Mastiff yet one is a ground weapon and the other is in a carepackage.

Going through this point by point...

#1. I can't argue for or against this. I just don't know and there's too many variables for me to try to make an argument for something I can't even feel is right or wrong.

#2. Couple different points to make here... everything in this game has ridiculous range outside of the other two shotguns, the mastiff's range is probably typical for a shotgun in reality, "big damage" can't be considered without DPS no matter how much you want to ignore it. This singular point is a full (but short) discussion alone so I don't want to go into it. Kind of a hassle.

#3. I don't like when posters bring up skill because its usually a lazy way to dismiss something. Most of the guns in this game don't require much skill unless you're trying to use them beyond their intended range. The skill floor and ceiling of a gun matters but discussing that will also drag out my post so I'll leave it unless you want to go into detail.

#4. Yeah every gun that doesn't have a low ammo capacity is lethal against low hp targets. Punches are lethal against low hp targets so I guess it sucks for the. It's still easier to escape from the Mastiff than any other gun even at low hp. Except maybe the R-99 or prowler purely due to how quickly you can burn through your ammo and need to reload.

#5. Yeah its strong at peeking. If you can manage it then this tactic is disgustingly effective at maximizing the Mastiff's damage and minimizing the damage you take. All high damage/low rate of fire weapons excel at this tactic but if you believe the Mastiff is a little too good at it then fair enough.

#6. The Mastiff is so bad at hipfiring that it's mandatory to ADS. Aiming down the sights makes you more accurate with any gun so I'd expect players to land more shots with the Mastiff than a gun you would regularly hipfire. The PK shows no real difference between hipfiring and ADS. A PK user should regularly mix in hipfire to increase their odds in a fight even though it will cost them in terms of accuracy so I don't think your observation matters here.

#7. The PK (before it was buffed) had greater range and dealt more damage on longer ranged shots. It was also the more flexible shotgun since it didn't need to ADS. I think the difference in max damage was PK - 110, Mastiff - 120. The PK could do everything the Mastiff can do and more while doing it at greater ranges. Its only negative point was that it was fairly inconsistent.

Everything point you made was half correct but missing context and there's way too many points to discuss in one reply.

Will do the same. :D

#1 - ok.

#2 - again its one thing to talk about something on paper and completely different in action. We were talking about that, remember ? If not, aka the no skill challenge for R99. And yeah DPS means nothing. 

Kraber doesn`t have big DPS, but i can one shot you right? And your DPS stats go into oblivion. Same stuff with a Mastiff. R99 may have higher DPS, but you need to land every single bullet, miss 1 and the DPS goes down by a lot. Im not only playing this game seriously, but i watch a lot of streamers, mostly ShivFPS, and he is a top 3 kill player in PC, yet in a lot of close fights(lets said SMG distances) he didn`t land 1 mag people. There is a lot of times where he miss half of his shots, even more.

Longbow has 70 DPS, but i can 2 shot you before you even realize where i`m.

Charge Rifle is extremely powerful, yet it has one of the lowest DPS in the game.

Mozambique has big DPS, yet its one of the worst weapons in the game.

Eva8 has higher DPS than a Mastiff and PK, your telling me its a better weapon ? :D Every top player will tell you both Mastiff and PK **** on Eva8.

Re45 has higer DPS than a Wingman, Mastiff, PK, and a Kraber, is that telling us something?  :D

#3 - totally disagree. A lot of weapons require skill to be used. Even the Mastiff against good strafers when they hipfire or even with a fast ADS gun, and you need to be good at flicking.

But again everything depend on the situation.

Just a quick tip. One buddy is playing with R99 and always said how good he is, his second is usually a Mastiff. The couldn`t land 30% of his shots with the R99, yet he is saying its require no skill. Most people that talk about this, can`t even land half of their shots, but they still think they are good with it. :D So many people are using it, and just spam left-to right with it, in order to try to hit you. :D 

This is a tip, i`m not saying you are bad with it.

#4 - i was talking about something specific i think everyone experience the thing i was mentioning. This is personal experience. You may not think like me and i don`t have a problem with it.

#5 - my whole point about this is, that is very strong in such situation, where you are in a closed room. You are behind an angle/wall/side/door/ and not much room to do anything against it. Its just going to hit you for a lot of damage. Also on the open "caravan", hit and slightly go back, you will do tremendous damage and not get any in exchange. Saying that, i know shotgun should be strong in this situation, because of the lower firerate, so its normal to have advantage in a closed room and situation like that. 

#6 - not much to correct you on this. But ADS is not a skill, going in and out fast is not even remotely hard, so it people(i know a lot of them and they are saying Mastiff has low damage, because they still hipfire spam with it) should not act like oh but you have to ADS. You already have great ADS speed with the Mastiff, and you ads for a less than a second any way.

BTW outside of the discussion, some pro prefer to ADS with the PK for most of the time. I`m also used to, so much used to, that i do the same with Eva8(just a habit i guess) and sometimes i miss extremely easy shots that i would hit if was on hipfire. I actually think Eva8 is the easiest to make a miss with it, esp if the target is a Wraith or Lifeline.

#7 - was a fan of Diego and constantly watched him. His word PK is OP even after all the nerfs it gets(that just show you how much Devs don`t know what they are doing), and its extremely strong. Some people were using it as a half-sniper, which was ridiculous. Also Diego own words is that he the easiest way to kill a better player is by shotgun(PK) at the time he was saying this, and that most of his dead is due to this extremely OP weapon. And he was not hating on the weapon, because he was using it like 99% of the time. :D He just said its extremely annoying to go against it with other weapon, and that is extremely strong and a game changer. And ****** on Eva8 big time.

My whole point for 1 million time again is that Mastiff damage needs to be reduced, as well as his pellets range.

My whole point was that shotgun should be a strong secondary weapon, but should not do 60-70 or even 110% damage of your hp. The damage should be at 80, which is a 40% of your total hp if you have a full hp and a purple armor(and no LP), and its a 80% if you got no armor.

ATM in a close drop location, the guy that gets a Mastiff with ease can annihilate a whole team, did the DEVS ever think about this ?

Max Mastiff damage atm is 126. But i constantly can get like 104 or 91(i think). 

I`m a wrong ? Maybe, but this is my take on the Mastiff, and i think we are done with it. I just have an opinion about the current TTK and the damage of some weapon.

Just like Diego said, most of the time i`m dying to a Mastiff, and the people that killed me didn`t land even 50 damage with his primary weapon, and thats why i think this weapon is completely over it. 
I don`t think you or me are wrong, we have different view on the take. Some people may actually think Mastiff should be able to one shot you ...

But still i think they did exactly nothing with changing PK with the Mastiff. The reason was to change the meta, yet what they do its just a swap two similar strong weapons, nothing more.

@LordloshBang Yeah it seems are main disagreement is that you want it to be a secondary and I want it to be a primary. I'd have no problem capping the Mastiff at 70 or 80 damage as a secondary I just wouldn't carry it. Our other disagreements seem to be based on in game situations and what we feel is easier to use. I respect your viewpoint on this but we obviously want Apex to be very a different game. Still worth talking about though.

It's honestly just sad how games turn out to be. In a match today, fought against 8 people. 5 of them used a Mastiff, including myself. It's not even funny anymore, just straight up sad how far you get with this weapon. But yes, this weapon is completely fine.

All jokes aside, Mastiff needs a serious nerf.

Check this video and see how overpower the masstife is https://twitter.com/i/status/1275260560532258816

14 dmg per shot

I feel you, but that was kinda 1 in a million situation. You should have killed that guy, you wasted the whole mag, but your aiming was on point, just unlucky i guess. :D But if it was any different legend than a Wraith, you would have kill him in 2-3 shots.

I as a Bangalore, can`t dodge shots like that, not even going to mention the bigger legends.

As i said many times in the past, Wraith get away with a lot of things, cause of her hitbox. :D

xx_Dante2k_xx, so agian the R99 right? :D What your suggestion for R99 nerf is then ?

As far as i remember your main problem was the lasering/beaming from a big distance with it,right ? And as i said before, the main reason for that is that people are running either soft cheaters or no-recoil macros, which is not a R99 problem, but a cheat problem.

I can`t laser people from 100 meter for example, and i have solid tracking and definitely know how to keep the recoil, and R99/R301 is my loadout almost every game.

Still even if they nerf the R99 i would still play it, because i like the look of the weapon and its the main reason i`m using it. If Alternator has the look of the R99, Alternator would be my main weapon. :D

We were talking something about DPS few posts above. Read if you miss it. :D

Wingman have superior speed(actually zero penalty) and can kill you with 2-3 shots.

As far as the look, you can`t bet on something you don`t know. I`m using alternator as well. And they already buff it. Its in a good spot. Its range its kinda bad tho, but it should, because its an SMG. Tho Alternator is slower, it has higher damage.

You say 90% of the gun fights are with R99, its the same with Mastiff, 90% of the people have one in the second slot, but you obviously don`t have problem with it. :D

Again no one will put R99 on the CP. The game will lost half of its playerbase for sure.

And lets said they nerf it to the ground or put it to the CP as you would like, Prowler will be the new meta, and Prowler is actually way stronger.

As far as i understand from your previous post(we have a history) was the range problem, but as i said it before, this is because most people are using no-recoil macros/scripts, but R99 is not the problem for that, but the cheaters.

There is people all over the place that are using it for Wingman accuracy, for Hemlock, G7 scout, and all of the AR/SMG for no-recoils.

Most are for Logitech and the way i see a lot of streamers are running all kind of macros, and they are not touched, so this is the main problem.

Ah its a Autohotkey, you can always toggle it on and off.

So when someone specs you, you can turn off your cheats quite easy.

Just write for it on google and there is million videos/forums/sites with all kind of macros/scripts and they swear its undetected, and the way i see Respawn are allowing them this, and its truly undetected.

And id***** like me, spends tons of hours on Kovaaks, Apex Aim trainer(mostly for tracking and recoil), and at the Firing Range, so how we can call that? Fairplay. :D

Still in buffing/nerfing there is no right or wrong posters. 

So your suggestion is to either put R99 on the CP or remove the barrel mod ? No damage, speed or further recoil increase?

A potential nerf for R-99 without nerfing it? Quite simple, actually. Prolonged shooting will reduce recoil, but recoil at the start will be insane, regardless of the barrel stabilizer.

But it's about the Mastiff here, not the R-99.

But how will that the help with R99, when most people are running no-recoil macros? :D

This won`t hurt them even a bit.

Just a tip. Havoc is actually hard to control, and for me at least its completely impossible to keep on target in a medium to long distance, esp when i`m not using this gun regularly.

Yet there is streamers that pick it, and they perfectly control it(they don`t control a thing, they just run a no-recoil macros).

Example Diegosauer. I`m a fan of him, but that don`t make me blind. On one of his streams he f***** lasered a guy from like a 100meter distances and he didn`t miss a shot with the Havoc at that distance .... This is purely impossible.