IntroductionI have no intention of denying that you attempted a rework or the Dash ability itself. However, I question whether it was good to combine this ability with Ash, an Assault-class Legend. Questions Regarding Ash's Dash・First of all, why was it necessary to give Ash the dash ability?・If you consider this rework a success, is it normal for Ash's pick rate to exceed 30% while many other characters remain below 1%?・If you consider Ash's rework a success, why did you remove or nerf her previous abilities after the rework?・Doesn't that rather suggest her previous abilities were sufficiently excellent?・If so, why are you trying to weaken those original strengths while keeping only the Dash?・Couldn't this rework be considered to have demonstrated the excellence of Ash's original abilities? I believe it's time to learn from past adjustment outcomes and show your pride as professionals.

From my experience as MNK player I welcomed all mobility abilities:- Octane jumppad with directional change- Revs charged jump- Vantage as a new character- Ash dash- Pathfinder's double grapple perk and previously long zipline edition- Sparrow with double jumpWhy? Because in many cases due to linear movement speed and lack of strafing (unless you abuse scripts and do those crazy bunny hops left to right without losing speed) if I got caught "out in the open" I had experience that people especially with aim assist just locked onto me and never missed.Now when I "feel" I am getting locked on, I have ability to get out of that situation.In that regards I would want Octane to take a bit less damage from stimming, I view that nerf as one that made him irrelevant - stimming in seconds drains your health and it is no longer viable, I would like to see a balance where you can stim at least twice per 30 seconds and not drain more than half of the health.At the same time in all of the above + Horizon gravity lift (maybe I am missing something else) I have had my biggest complaint - shot accuracy during those mobility movements.Back in season 9? Horizon's lift was nerfed introducing "wobble" and decreased accuracy / increased recoil while in it AND I think that was THE RIGHT move, as mobility should be at the cost of accuracy as it is (or was) in Apex initially and is true for other games including extreme cases like Valorant or especially CS where you can't hit basically anything while moving with automatic weapons.Unfortunately people still praise streamers (can't share names for sure because forum rules) that managed to be pinpoint accurate from Horizon's lift and all fanboys say "omg what a recoil control" while normal humans can't do even 1/10 of that accuracy which makes me wonder.Same goes with any combination of the above mentioned mobility ability + super accurate shooting while moving much faster or much higher vertically.Given Respawn has not stated (ever) details on how which mechanics in the game should work, we can only wonder is it hacks + abilities that make them OP or is it intended OP combination...I would be totally fine if mobility gave opportunity to relocate, potentially heal during the process (using cells or battery during Horizon's lift or going into bunny hopping after other abilities and healing while still moving decently fast / going behind cover) BUT I AM TOTALLY AGAINST the combination where you can pull off relocation in combination with 90 hit Mastiff shots or now more often case of beaming people with Devotion or R-99 even before speed burst is over, that is too unfair.I would set recoil / accuracy to basically "you can't hit s#$@ even being aimgod" while any of the abilities are in use, speed exceeds hipfire running speed.

Eshshshss Thank you for your Reply. points of agreement:I agree that Aim Assist provides an advantage in sudden close-quarters combat.I agree that shooting accuracy during high-speed movement is currently too high. Points of Disagreement:I am cautious about further enhancing the mobility of Skirmisher class character. reasons for disagreement:・Apex Legends is a battle royale with 20 teams of 3 players. Significantly widening the gap in mobility among characters could increase the likelihood of internal squad coordination errors.・While inducing opponent errors is part of the game's appeal, I believe current mobility levels are sufficient.・A recent team-wide movement speed buff was added to the Skirmisher class. Enhancing individual character mobility through abilities or ultimates would undermine the purpose of that recent countermeasure.・I oppose both excessive buffs and excessive nerfs. If overpowered (OP) characters become prevalent, it creates a situation where players must pick OP characters to compete, narrowing strategic diversity and preventing players from using their preferred characters.・If pick rates become skewed, it will negatively impact the sales of cosmetic items for less-used characters, which could in turn affect the game's player base and revenue. This is a detrimental outcome for us players as well. conclusion:・I oppose excessive character buffs and nerfs as they lead to the stagnation of strategic options and limit players' ability to choose their preferred characters.・I agree that shooting accuracy during high-speed movement is too high.・While I understand concerns about Aim Assist, I cannot agree that enhancing mobility is the correct solution, as it could create other problems. my proposals:・Ash should be reverted to her previous state. If buffs are deemed necessary, they should focus on assisting her existing performance rather than adding new features.・If the goal is to introduce blink (dash) abilities into the game, they should be assigned to a Skirmisher class character rather than Ash. I recommend creating a new character for this purpose.・If players feel there is a lack of mobility for Skirmisher characters, perhaps easing skill activation conditions would be better than simply increasing their mobility stats.・Close-quarters combat tends to favor Aim Assist. To protect MNK users, instead of increasing mobility, consider revisiting skill activation conditions and effective durations for relevant abilities.

The best developers were fired or left themselves.Now we have what we have. It's sad to see what they've done to this game.Best regards.

Not sure why you are bringing up different classes and their perks. Imo Ash dash has nothing to do with that. Imo and experience dash is used only to throw off enemy's aim / tracking mostly in close range fights, secondly I would assume if caught out in the open area. Dash is basically useless in longer range fights.Same goes for in team coordination - you can't gain "that much" distance with dash e.g. in comparison to Rev's leap, Path's grapple, Octane stim etc. Coordination suffers imo mostly / only because people inability to communicate and/or process information during stressful situations - your "I can only run and gun, not IGL" type of players which are basically majority especially ones that use controller.Finally I would not base many decisions based on pickrate - there are too many "brainless fanboys/fangirls" that would play "meta" just for sake of playing most popular legends, at the same time having 0 clue how to play them.People in higher ranks still play quite random comps, just example from yesterday from games that went well for me following legends were present in my team / enemy teams:- Pathfinder especially on Worlds edge- Meggie- Wattson- Lifeline (personally best results on her for me, even went on like 500 RP+ streak at one point playing her, Ballistic and Alter)- Mirage- Loba especially on Worlds edge- Rev- Newcastle- Wraith- Rampart- to a certain extent CryptoGiven I was playing a lot of Ash since her arrival (liked the passive that helped track enemy movements - very useful when soloqing) I already liked her and the snare = free to stop enemy in its tracks and kill ability. When buff of double snare or tripple time came around = amazing, maybe a bit OP. Then they also fixed the Ult placement mechanics = now it is more reliable.I think the game changer is not so much dash rather dash + AA / hacks combination. As before you could close the distance with many Legends but they were linear, predictable (except Path's grapple and abuse of Octane jump pad and tapstrafing). Now with addition of dash most will use Ult -> Dash -> enemy wifs half-mag+ -> AA / hack and one-mag him back. In combination with rising number of hackers Ash pickrate increase is imo clear outcome. Before it was legends like Octane, Path, Rev = highly mobile, very useful for hackers to run towards their next pray, close distance instantly, make tracking them much harder for legit players. Now Ash is just the same + has snare = you will often see that if hackers fail at mobile part they will switch to tactics of snaring you and then "magically" throwing perfect or **bleep** near perfect skynades. Most Preds just automatically do that and you can't avoid it and it is more lethal than dash if you ask me.And the fact that Ash was less popular before just meant that there were other OP legends like support meta (people could re-heal faster than being downed) or Rev+Crypto ult (doing damage or buffing yourself for significant advantage and basically 100% 1v1 win if combined with hacks) before that. Otherwise snare + skynade + aimbot was always present tactics for highest rank players - you can check Season 22 or prior top Preds and there were already then many Ash "mains".

Eshshshss Thank you for your reply. I am not singling out Ash's dash alone as being problematic. I believe that the combination of Ash's "dash" ability and her characteristics as an Assault class character is what makes her dangerous. Indeed, the fact that her previous abilities were targeted for nerfs after her rework indicates the threat this combination poses. It's a shared understanding between you and me that highly mobile characters, not just Ash, are favored by cheaters. Furthermore, it's only natural that Ash is popular among cheaters, given her excellent Assault-like abilities combined with her superior mobility. The skewed pick rates are a serious problem.I disagree with the notion that pick rates are not biased in high-ranked lobbies. Even in Predator/Master tiers, Ash stands out significantly at 34.6%, followed by Ballistic at 16.5%, Alter at 12.3%, Pathfinder at 8.6%, and Sparrow at 6.2%. Meanwhile, nearly half of the entire roster, 12 characters, have less than 1% pick rate. This clearly demonstrates a severe imbalance, regardless of rank tier.

Should Ash Keep Her Dash? | EA Forums

18 Replies

Blekerodo
Rising Ace
2 months ago
Should Ash Keep Her Dash? - Definitely not, but by the time EA/Respawn realize this, it will be too late.
Best regards.
Akipekopeko
New Scout
2 months ago
Blekerodo
Thank your Reply.

That's right.
They should rework Ash's rework.
I hope it's not too late.
Eshshshss
Seasoned Ace
2 months ago
I think that this community is asking devs to solve "mission impossible":
- by now there are 27 legends = it is like juggling with 27 balls at the same time, not sure anyone can do that in the world
- community of mainly casuals are always asking for more content skins, guns, maps AND legends
Basically asking devs to "balance / buff" existing legends while coming up with new ones. Not sure if that is possible.
Also based on e.g. Valorant experience I would lean towards "superhero" mode where if not abilities then ultimate abilities are so strong for every legend that only coordinated retreat or counter ultimate is the way to avoid giving enemy team a guaranteed kill. Because asking to align 27 legends (each with passive + ability + ultimate) it is just too crazy of a task, add to that input differences, level differences etc... crazy equation to be solved.
Another extreme is the fact that players ask for diversity at the same time being lazy and maining X legend since season 0...go figure :D
From this perspective I also like the approach of Respawn where they constantly mess up legends, guns, mechanics, recoils etc. to force people to adjust. This community is just too lazy and imo this might be the only way to motivate people to switch from Wraith after having 100000 kills on her or whatever.
As for to top level Preds/Masters I was actually meaning to say ALGS pros / competitive players - my point was that other comps are present and successfully compete against meta = proving it is possible.
Also sorry but I still put Preds and most Masters into 90+% hacker category as I struggle to see legit players on that level. It is always something that they are exploiting and I don't believe that someone is THAT good that he/she can outshoot aimbot or outsmart wallhack on regular basis aka if 60 player lobby contains a squad that can do 15+ KP on top level and clearly are hacking I will not believe that some legit "Pred/Master" can battle vs such force without hacks, especially if there are like 750 Preds and somehow people think that 50%+ are hacking but other 50% = 300+ people are unique talents... too many talents, gifted players. If it would be like 10 out of 750 I might buy it, but 300 out of 750... too good to be true. Which leads to previous conclusion = Ash is so good mostly because of combination with AA/aimbot.
As for environmental changes = we need to keep in mind that majority of the player base is controller player, more so majority of those are on consoles (at least it was the case before). Which means: probably playing on TV and speakers (not using audio to its best capabilities, lower fps, huge field of view), limited ability to look around, change directions fast, limited number of binds (whatever number of buttons vs 100+ keys on keyboard alone). So from business perspective Respawn can't just create legends that are not suited / heavily favor MNK, which in turn leads to the same patterns of "close the distance, run and gun".
If we look at the legend list:
Bloodhound – legend for those who have 0 game awareness.
Gibraltar – close range tank -> controller focused.
Lifeline - need to play close to teammates, pick them up -> somewhat controller focused.
Pathfinder – highly mobile -> MNK focused (4-5th place pickrate)
Wraith – push into your face and run away -> controller focused
Bangalore – smoke fights, killing enemies going out of smoke -> somewhat controller focused
Caustic – close range controller -> controller focused
Mirage – close range bamboozle -> controller focused
Octane - running, closing distance to bring fights to close range -> controller focused
Wattson - close range controller -> controller focused
Crypto – in and out of drone scanner -> MNK focused (16-20th place pickrate)
Revenant - running, closing distance to bring fights to close range -> controller focused
Loba – fun one for loot goblins
Rampart - close range controller -> controller focused
Horizon – pusher using verticality and mobility -> MNK focused (9-15th place pickrate)
Fuse – viable more on mid/long range imo -> somewhat MNK focused (14-18th place pickrate)
Valkyrie - pusher using verticality and mobility -> MNK focused (20-22th place pickrate)
Seer - legend for those who have 0 game awareness.
Ash - running, closing distance to bring fights to close range -> controller focused
Mad Maggie – tailored to close range shotgun fights -> totally controller focused
Newcastle - need to play close to teammates, pick them up -> somewhat controller focused
Vantage – mobile, effective on long range -> MNK focused (22-24th place pickrate)
Catalyst - close range controller -> controller focused
Ballistic – can be played either way
Conduit - close range controller -> controller focused
Alter – close range bamboozle via portals -> controller focused
Sparrow – mobile scanner, utilizing verticality -> MNK focused (new legend in top 5 but in comparison not like other new legends who went top 1 for at least 1st split)
As you see there are like 7 out of 27 legends that are suitable more for MNK vs controller -> now we look at pick rates for those and they are with exception of Pathfinder not even in top 10. Clear indication that:
a) game is tailored towards controller players / close range fights
b) people are not able to play legends that require certain mechanical skills, game awareness, lining up long range shots
And it is not so much legend or strategy problem, especially below Master’s level. It is people problem – they are too lazy, not competitive, unwilling to challenge themselves, have sub par progress while acquiring new skill = most aim to get X rank no matter how, even via boosts and hacks.
While e.g. myself I just decided to main Crypto one season!!! Because a) I have not seen many good ones around b) I was eager to learn how to help team while not making them fight every fight 2v3.
Later I was and still am saying that I have not seen one good Wattson player in sub Masters level -> so I decided to play Wattson just to see how well I can play her. It was hard, painful yet I still managed to reach at least D4 with them + had really a lot of fun eventually playing legends people are not expecting and have usually 0 idea on how to counter = had joy outsmarting people even though I still got outgunned most of the time.
If you are smart enough and fast enough you can at least prevent or slow down Ash/Ballistic push via e.g. Wattson fences, in many cases even stun them in their way via trapping. Yet most don’t do that, haven’t see it once, because it requires game awareness, communication and really fast movement placing fences + brain regarding where to position and put them. = too hard -> skip.
Finally regarding hacking and smurfing – these two diseases also skew our ability to tell how good / bad legends actually are. Typical example – aimbot + skynade = 100 damage = instant advantage. At that point factor of what legend you play is so secondary as now team on defense has to waste 6? second to use battery or fight you 100 vs 200 health. HUGE disadvantage which you should be able to convert 9 out of 10 times, with hacks 10 out of 10.
Same goes with just pure softbot / aimbot = you just crack 2+ people while taking little to no damage yourself e.g. 3030+skullpiercer headshots = again defensive team has 300+! Less health => conversion is 10 out of 10.
Wallhack – easy to isolate, coordinate push into 1 vs multiple scenario, easy first knock, rollover 9 out of 10 times at least.
And all of this can be done on ANY legend, but as described above even easier with mobile legends that can close the distance. I would assume most hackers would still play Octane but it would be too sus/obvious in combination of 10+ KP games. Ash, Ballistic, Alter gives them “stealth argument” in a way that “hey I get so many kills because I play meta”…
Akipekopeko
New Scout
2 months ago
Eshshshss
I see that you have no intention of listening to what I have to say.
I answered you about Master and Predator. I told you the reason too. I'm not going to repeat the same answer.
I want to tell you that I cannot engage in your forceful arguments.This is very sad.
Have you tried to listen before you speak?What did I tell you?Did the developer say it couldn't be done? I think it's rude not to listen to what others have to say.
Eshshshss
Seasoned Ace
2 months ago
With all due respect I would suggest you to put side by side your comment and my lengthy reply / analysis that addresses all of the points in bold from your post.
The only difference so far between our viewpoints seem to be the fact that:
- you take Master/Pred legend pick rate as basis to prove that in this case Ash is unbalanced
- me putting Masters/Preds into the same category as blunt hackers that make any legend unbalanced = data not representable
Rest is up for debate of what is possible what not regarding developers meeting or not meeting requirements from the player base. Imo given above said they actually do meet quite a lot of what is being asked for by the community part that spends money on the game = lazy, mostly controller players, that play casually and want "run and gun" type of experience are getting 2/3 of suitable legends to do that with additional bonus of some of them being unbalanced to make things even easier in terms of achieving "run and gun" results.
To back this up I will make a prediction that now Vantage despite getting major buffs - mobility and less noticeable ultimate - will be as "(un)popular" as Sparrow (being new legend and not reaching top 1 or 2 pick at least for the first split after being introduced) just because of the fact that Vantage is more MNK tailored legend = minority of player base => that will result in mediocre increase in her pickrate.
saleen8100
Seasoned Rookie
13 days ago
Fam do you know how long it took to come up with such decision and how many people agreed that something this braindead was good addition for the game?
saleen8100
Seasoned Rookie
13 days ago
Game has literally turned into aim assist clow fiesta with people just yanking their left trigger and hoping something happens and if it doesn't dash and double jump are here to break the fight..................................... I genuinely want them NOT to remove these abilities 'cause I need these 90 gigs on my drive 😂
Akipekopeko
New Scout
13 days ago
saleen8100
I agree that the dash and double jump are breaking the game's balance. (I'll avoid commenting on aim assist, as I'm not familiar with the device differences there.)
At the beginning of Season 25, the user base grew as people checked out the update, but since the latter half of Split 1, the population decline has been significant.
If the root causes continue to be ignored, more and more people will uninstall Apex.

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Should Ash Keep Her Dash?

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