Since sudden changes will result in a sudden increase or decrease in the player population, if you are going to adjust aim assist, we recommend not making it public, but only increasing or decreasing the value slightly, and gradually adjusting it to the appropriate value as pad players' skills improve.
First, making changes like that without saying so publicly creates a serious credibility problem for a developer who already has enough of them.
Second, adjusting on a per-player basis? I know there are plenty of sports that use a handicap system, and I know that skill-based matchmaking is itself a form of handicapping. But introducing yet another factor into the game where it works one way for one player and completely differently for another? I'm pretty sure it would be a gameplay disaster, and I KNOW it would be a public relations disaster.
Third, "appropriate value?" What is the appropriate value? Obviously it's different for every player? Does that mean the system will handicap every single player a different amount until we all have exactly the same accuracy numbers? What's the end goal with this system? I have the exact same odds against a predator as I do against a bot, or is it just to do away with all AA over time? What would this do to the integrity of a ranking system? What would that do to drive cheating, already a pretty serious problem in this game?
Sorry for not being clear enough. This does not mean adjusting aim assist for each individual. What I want to say here is that when changing aim assist, we recommend changing the values at a level that players cannot intuitively understand, waiting a certain period of time, and then making the same adjustments again, gradually searching for the optimal value. Since only the developers can check the detailed analytical data, we believe it is up to the developers to decide the appropriate value for aim assist. As for unannounced update content, as with the most recent developments, this has been happening for some time now, so we don't think there's anything to worry about.
Okay, I see where you're going with this. But I still see a problem. Even if you could change slowly enough that people simply adjust without pain... you're assuming that they play Apex in a vacuum and never play any other game. I already experience this every time I bounce back and forth between Apex and Halo Reach. In one game my accuracy is abysmal and in the other it's spectacular. At some point wouldn't the average gamer just stop playing Apex where he makes 25% of his shots and go full time with Fortnite where he makes 50%? Wouldn't this create a situation where gamers are simply choosing between a title where their efforts go unrewarded and another title where their efforts pay off? Why does every game have to be designed to elevate players with godly aim (probably some sort of brain defect) and leave the rest of us chaff on the floor? I know that in theory it wouldn't matter as long as sbmm is properly sorting players. But we know that's more of a promise than a reality.
The short version is: I would have called Apex a game with a very high, VERY HIGH skill ceiling. And it seems as if what you want to do is make it even higher. Not to mention the fact that the WAY you want to make it higher is the way that lends itself most completely to cheating.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be a discussion about aim assist. There should. But before we can have that discussion we need to have one about mixed lobbies, one about high functioning anti-cheat, and yet another about the wisdom of wide skill gaps.
Basically, all communication is done through machine translation, so I apologize if there are any misunderstandings.
I largely agree that effort should be rewarded. However, whether Apex is in a state where effort is rewarded depends on whether aim assist is appropriate or not. If aim assist is too strong, a game pad player will be able to beat a keyboard and mouse player with a lot of effort with little effort, and if aim assist is too weak, a game pad player will not be able to beat a keyboard and mouse player with a lot of effort, even if they put in a lot of effort. This is something that requires very difficult balancing, and it is an issue that developers who have incorporated it as a specification should deal with responsibly.
If we are to discuss skills gaps, then skills gaps that result from hard work are welcome. In fact, I find it more fun to play a game where effort makes a big difference in skill than a game where effort makes no difference in skill. And this is my personal opinion, but if we want to make a game where effort is rewarded, I think it's okay to greatly weaken the aim assist that allows you to become stronger without effort. However, there is another important idea that I personally think. I also want all players who play Apex properly to be able to enjoy the game. In that case, I understand that simply weakening aim assist is not enough.
As I mentioned earlier, if we want to achieve the ideal, this requires very difficult balancing. Therefore, it is an issue that the developer who has incorporated it as a specification should deal with responsibly. Personally, I don't know how far the developer has gone, so I am stating here what I hope will be helpful to the developer in making Apex a better game.
I appreciate all the thought you've put into this, but in the end I keep reading a compelling argument for an end to mixed lobbies, not a compelling argument for changes to aim assist values.
If Respawn announced tomorrow that there would no longer ever be a PC player in a console lobby, or a console player in a PC lobby, what do you think that would do to the game? To put it another way, is there enough of a benefit to mixed lobbies to justify all the headache we put ourselves through trying to justify more AA or less AA or an end to AA? In my personal opinion, the answer is a resounding NO. No, there definitely is not any benefit to any player. Only to the developer. Which is why we still have mixed lobbies despite years of complaining about them.
My two cents from 10k+ hours in Apex on MNK, few hours on controller:
So for me the issue is not so much in AA % setting but what it affects. What I have seen again and again people with AA just hipfire basically every weapon, this season G7... I mean if you have been playing for a while you know how bad it was before, people used to "laugh" that Sentinel could be used as long and close range (scoped/hipfire) weapon, then came 30-30 change, now G7 is basically a must?
The only change imo needed is to make hipfire for MNK and controller exactly the same as one can argue that tracking legends which mostly have the same speed (adjust controller accordingly to have 1:1 speed of movement) is much easier on controller vs MNK so hipfire should not have additional AA bonus and create situation where MNK hit 7s with PK while controller does constant 90+ etc.
For scoped mid-long range - sure, no problem, let it be.
p.s. it would be amazing if clear info on how AA works, when it kicks in or not would be posted as e.g. I still don't believe based on in-game experience that it does not work in Bangalore's smoke as people keep frying me as they always have been.
I don't think I understand it well, but I'll reply with one thing. PC players can avoid being matched with CS players by applying the boot options "+CrossPlay_user_optin 0". However, please note that the rank ladder will no longer be applied.
Oh wow did not know that, thanks for the update!
But personally I have no issues with "pure" console players - they can't keep up with PC Diamond+ players from what I have seen.
Also if not mistaken Respawn did adjust AA % and made a rule that if Console player joins PC lobbies = AA value is 40% not 60% as on console. Yet this is as shady as AA topic in general given from my experience above written is true.
"What I have seen so far / read online - the argument for using controller (besides financial aspect) is basically "I don't want to try that hard", as otherwise MNK is far superior BUT with as far higher skill gap / ceiling. And this is the main point that pisses me off = Apex seems to be the only? game that is kinda competitive but tailors to "lazy" gamer (reference to numerous Masters that have 0 game awareness, bad teamwork yet they get more KP/RP because they win more 1:1s) -> eventually push pros to switch to controller as 50% of the game success is hitting shots which AA makes much easier on controller vs MNK."
This entire section fascinates me.
The whole "I don't want to try that hard" argument is, I would say, on some pretty shaky ground. Me personally? I really don't want to work that hard and am not afraid of saying so, but I also believe that puts me in a minority. Console players aren't afraid of practice, their rig just didn't come with a mouse and keyboard. Most people use controller because it came with the console. Because it is intuitive. Because playing a game with a mouse and keyboard is like getting yourself to work with a horse and buggy. Sure, it takes more work or skill or whatever we tell ourselves to justify or efforts, but I'm not at all convinced that that's anything to be proud of. I'm perfectly happy to hail my robotaxi and get on with my life. So again, I'll say what I've said before. None of this feels like an argument against AA, it feels like an argument against mixed lobbies.
Numerous Masters that have zero game awareness and bad teamwork but hit their rank because hitting shots with AA is "much easier?" Yeah, I've watched all the same YouTube nonsense you have, yes I've seen all the R5 data that you have. And I'm still willing to say without qualification that this is all a gross exaggeration. NOBODY gets to master without game awareness or teamwork, strictly on the tails of controller aim assist. (Except in season whichever it was where master was the gimme rank). I don't know when was the last time you picked up a controller, but they don't self-aim, they don't lock on, you don't get one clip after one clip. That is not how any of this works. The only way I can imagine anyone getting the results people describe is if these players already had preternaturally good aim to begin with and AA, giving them the same minuscule bump everyone else gets, are now going from "really good" to "crazy good." Which is utterly irrelevant unless you happen to be low master already and are looking to get a few more slots up the ladder. That doesn't describe me, probably doesn't describe you, and certainly doesn't describe 93% of the players in this game. So we're chasing our tails over something that affects very few players, absolutely none of whom I care about, and who frankly should just not be playing in a mixed lobby anyway.
End mixed lobbies. And to be honest, there are far more compelling reasons than aim assist for ending mixed lobbies. But AA would be more than enough on its own so let's go with it. Problem solved.
reconzero yeah I am totally ok as I wrote with the fact that people don't want to try hard or switch the input - trust me it is as hard for me to start using controller after all my life spent on MNK, I just feel like disabled on controller and can't make myself play on it despite knowing that in Apex it would give me and edge.
What I don't like is the fact that Apex in ranked / competitive does kinda boost, push people into being competitive while lazy via AA aka create situation where MNK and in general putting time into training, skill development is disadvantageous shooting wise.
Illustrative example would be that with current settings and game mechanics it is more effective to hipfire while faster strafing that e.g. requires average tracking skills vs ADS tracking while being more stationary or in case of Apex basically sitting duck. And again illustratively speaking it takes 50% skill to hipfire and kill opponent vs say 80% (much more) to be able to almost perfectly rack via ADS to reach same result.
Add to that all turbo button inputs, scripts, crazy airstrafes that create no-regs which are 0 skill required mechanics (just add settings to your steam / controller input) and we get current Apex where MNK with 0 AA can track all they want -> controller player just crazy-bunny-hops around you while doing 90s with Mastiff while you no-reg / miss even few bullets from your mag and lose the fight despite having above average tracking skills.
I would almost like a 3rd type of gameplay introduced:
Sure, currently that is not possible as game is not doing well, will even more dilute available players + I assume that there will be not too many community members suitable / eager to play the latter. Yet knowing how much people like loot / cosmetics, maybe that would be the answer = make cosmetics exclusive for 3rd category and then just make sure (finally) that hackers are banned as they will arrive to harvest this stuff instantly the same way they do during ranked rumble and other events.
As for Masters topic sidenote - not sure where you are from but all I can tell you is to play D4+ lobbies on EMEA and then switch to NA and compare lobbies. In EMEA even borderline Master (16k or whatever is the limit now) will just wipe you out (most unfortunately because of hacks), Pred 3 stacks are just untouchable (again many / most hack). While in NA at least for past week has been my experience even badly matchmaked lobbies of 10 Masters + 10 Preds vs 40 Diamond are playable, you can actually take some of the Masters/Preds down.
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