https://youtu.be/6i5642d4DNoThe above link details a long standing CoD dev’s thoughts on “SBMM” in non-ranked modes. Please watch.His highlighted point is that “VARIANCE” is the most favorable and ethical experience for non-ranked online game modes. This is something I have literally been screaming about for years.I am exactly 361 games in on Season 15 and I have 2 wins. Please read that again. TWO wins. Not because I am below average, but because above average players who aren’t Preds are literally punished by matchmaking. Each online service game is different. There is a difference between BR’s and Arena shooters. But the fact remains that curating lobbies without reward (non-ranked) creates a problematic experience for anyone who is on the “right side of the skill bell curve” (save the tippy top players).

@Axs5626Sxa5001I got as far through that as I could before it made me want to put my fist through my screen.The idea that non-ranked gameplay should be a feeding ground for high-level players, and that it's completely okay because there are no ranks at stake, is the single most offensive thing I've ever heard on the subject of sbmm. It's exactly the thing that high-level players say when they're tired of slogging it out with other high-level players and start feeling put upon, as if they have some intrinsic right to crap all over lower-level players for no other reason than because it would be more fun for them.And I'm also tired to death of the very mistaken idea that ranked gameplay is reward driven and unranked gameplay is "casual," "non-competitive," "insert your own rationalization here for why it's okay to pit what amounts to professional athletes against kids." Rankings are a head game that do not REWARD players, they DESCRIBE their abilities. Players very mistakenly think of it as reward-based, and hence my description of it as a head game. The only reward in any game, imo, is a win. And last I checked this game offers wins in both ranked and unranked gameplay. Taking a win away from a guy who just started the game and has twenty matches in two weeks, so that some sweaty diamond grinder can feel better about himself is pitiable.Virtually every competitive sport I can think of has gameplay broken into peer groups, grouped either by age or by skill. Little Leaguers very seldom, unless I've missed some new development, play against the Red Sox. And with reason. That kind of pummeling doesn't make the kids into better players, and it absolutely shouldn't make the pros feel all tough and manly. If it does then those people should be medicated. And barred from the sport.Sorry about the rant but I've been pissed off about this since Halo 2, and it depresses me to have to keep defending something that seems so obvious. If you can explain it to me in a different way than Mr. Former Infinity Ward I promise to read every word.

@reconzero wrote:@Axs5626Sxa5001I got as far through that as I could before it made me want to put my fist through my screen.The idea that non-ranked gameplay should be a feeding ground for high-level players, and that it's completely okay because there are no ranks at stake, is the single most offensive thing I've ever heard on the subject of sbmm. It's exactly the thing that high-level players say when they're tired of slogging it out with other high-level players and start feeling put upon, as if they have some intrinsic right to crap all over lower-level players for no other reason than because it would be more fun for them.And I'm also tired to death of the very mistaken idea that ranked gameplay is reward driven and unranked gameplay is "casual," "non-competitive," "insert your own rationalization here for why it's okay to pit what amounts to professional athletes against kids." Rankings are a head game that do not REWARD players, they DESCRIBE their abilities. Players very mistakenly think of it as reward-based, and hence my description of it as a head game. The only reward in any game, imo, is a win. And last I checked this game offers wins in both ranked and unranked gameplay. Taking a win away from a guy who just started the game and has twenty matches in two weeks, so that some sweaty diamond grinder can feel better about himself is pitiable.Virtually every competitive sport I can think of has gameplay broken into peer groups, grouped either by age or by skill. Little Leaguers very seldom, unless I've missed some new development, play against the Red Sox. And with reason. That kind of pummeling doesn't make the kids into better players, and it absolutely shouldn't make the pros feel all tough and manly. If it does then those people should be medicated. And barred from the sport.Sorry about the rant but I've been pissed off about this since Halo 2, and it depresses me to have to keep defending something that seems so obvious. If you can explain it to me in a different way than Mr. Former Infinity Ward I promise to read every word.AMEN!!!This is what I keep talking about. Their EOMM doesn't work, except on the poor kids who think they will be the next twitch star and keep taking the abuse. It doesn't convince me to play more, it convinces me to do my "2 a day as ________" for 2 total stars and log out. It convinces me that dropping the match before we hit the ground because hot drop harry insists on taking me to Fragment is perfectly OK. It convinces me that this team game isn't a team game. And I don't care about getting all the stars because I don't care about fully completing the battle pass because I will never buy it when I am the freaking product. A product that exists to feed kills and egos to those people that want to be 'content creators' instead of getting a real job.Sorry, might be showing my age here but in my days 'content creators' made freaking ART be it paintings, literature, music, dance, something tangible and real that gave something back to humanity.This (and all video games to me) is not my dang job. I have a job. It pays me very well to think of solutions to real problems and then solve them. I put in my 40 hours plus on that. I'm not going to learn this game as a 2nd job. I'm a super casual player. I play my single player games the first time on easy. If they want me to put more time into this game, then they need to make the "I don't care I'm casual" league.And if they EVER want me to spend real cash on it, they better give me some single player content. For crying out loud, just give me the Apex version of Frontier Defense. Give all us crap casuals that that are here just because we miss Titanfall game-play and we'll go there, never to darken your BR again.

@Axs5626Sxa5001 from my point of view, the problem with Apex SBMM is the matchmaking with teammates.when I get matched in a lobby where the champ team is a stack of 3 preds or a pred and 2 masters, or a team with total kills combined are more than 250 K kills ( yes, these numbers exist ) but my teammates are lvl 200 s and so.then we have a big problem because the closer we get to facing this champ squad the more our chance of winning decreases until it gets to 0% once we get to two squads remaining.I am not going to talk about the last and current season-ranked MM because everyone knows that it's broken ( except for Respawn ) because they want to pamper their crying babies.honestly, I don't want easy matches but I don't was super sweaty ones as well and I don't want to waste 20 minutes in a match where I know that the result is already written.everyone wants a challenge...... a fair challenge where the chances are 50/50.so the teams as a whole should be all equal or ...or we need solos.but the babysitting should stop, I don't need to babysit two players who obviously don't belong in the lobby, and no one needs to babysit me when I don't belong in their lobbies.note: no disrespect to anyone, we all have different skills and I am not saying that I am great or something, not even close to decent.but you know what I mean

Games like this one are merely a lure to attract customers to spend money on microtransactions.The player is treated as a means to an end and not an end in itself.That's why they are so desperate to manage player satisfaction through "engagement-based matchmaking" because they fear losers will be leavers and then they won't have the maximum number of punters for their microtransactions and loot boxes. They want to squeeze every last cent out of the players.We may be fools for playing but then these companies have a monopoly on production and do what they like.The continued existence of this business model is really all down to government doing nothing about it.

Matchmaking thoughts from a Dev | EA Forums

44 Replies

reconzero
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@Axs5626Sxa5001

I got as far through that as I could before it made me want to put my fist through my screen.

The idea that non-ranked gameplay should be a feeding ground for high-level players, and that it's completely okay because there are no ranks at stake, is the single most offensive thing I've ever heard on the subject of sbmm. It's exactly the thing that high-level players say when they're tired of slogging it out with other high-level players and start feeling put upon, as if they have some intrinsic right to crap all over lower-level players for no other reason than because it would be more fun for them.

And I'm also tired to death of the very mistaken idea that ranked gameplay is reward driven and unranked gameplay is "casual," "non-competitive," "insert your own rationalization here for why it's okay to pit what amounts to professional athletes against kids." Rankings are a head game that do not REWARD players, they DESCRIBE their abilities. Players very mistakenly think of it as reward-based, and hence my description of it as a head game. The only reward in any game, imo, is a win. And last I checked this game offers wins in both ranked and unranked gameplay. Taking a win away from a guy who just started the game and has twenty matches in two weeks, so that some sweaty diamond grinder can feel better about himself is pitiable.

Virtually every competitive sport I can think of has gameplay broken into peer groups, grouped either by age or by skill. Little Leaguers very seldom, unless I've missed some new development, play against the Red Sox. And with reason. That kind of pummeling doesn't make the kids into better players, and it absolutely shouldn't make the pros feel all tough and manly. If it does then those people should be medicated. And barred from the sport.

Sorry about the rant but I've been pissed off about this since Halo 2, and it depresses me to have to keep defending something that seems so obvious. If you can explain it to me in a different way than Mr. Former Infinity Ward I promise to read every word.
CCbathwater
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@reconzero I've played ranked and pubs. Totally agree. It's the exact same game in both modes. The only difference I found is that all these ranked kids sit in a corner, hiding, because they desperately wanna hold on to their precious rp. Probably the same kids who have turned pubs into the trashcan mode it is, because it is "just casual" and doesn't matter.
maximas1986
3 years ago
@Axs5626Sxa5001 from my point of view, the problem with Apex SBMM is the matchmaking with teammates.
when I get matched in a lobby where the champ team is a stack of 3 preds or a pred and 2 masters, or a team with total kills combined are more than 250 K kills ( yes, these numbers exist ) but my teammates are lvl 200 s and so.
then we have a big problem because the closer we get to facing this champ squad the more our chance of winning decreases until it gets to 0% once we get to two squads remaining.
I am not going to talk about the last and current season-ranked MM because everyone knows that it's broken ( except for Respawn ) because they want to pamper their crying babies.
honestly, I don't want easy matches but I don't was super sweaty ones as well and I don't want to waste 20 minutes in a match where I know that the result is already written.
everyone wants a challenge...... a fair challenge where the chances are 50/50.
so the teams as a whole should be all equal or ...or we need solos.
but the babysitting should stop, I don't need to babysit two players who obviously don't belong in the lobby, and no one needs to babysit me when I don't belong in their lobbies.
note: no disrespect to anyone, we all have different skills and I am not saying that I am great or something, not even close to decent.
but you know what I mean
warslag
3 years ago
Games like this one are merely a lure to attract customers to spend money on microtransactions.
The player is treated as a means to an end and not an end in itself.
That's why they are so desperate to manage player satisfaction through "engagement-based matchmaking" because they fear losers will be leavers and then they won't have the maximum number of punters for their microtransactions and loot boxes. They want to squeeze every last cent out of the players.
We may be fools for playing but then these companies have a monopoly on production and do what they like.
The continued existence of this business model is really all down to government doing nothing about it.
CCbathwater
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@maximas1986To this day I don't understand if there are so many Diamond+ players in my lobby, why can't they ever be matched with me? Yeah, sometimes I get one of them as my teammate, but two of them? Rare. It's been like 4-5 seasons since I last had two teammates with "unrealistic" banners for e.g.. But I guess all the "unrealistic banner people" are 3-stacking *******, that's why we never get them as teammates but always see them on the champ squad screen. 🤡
hayhor
Hero
3 years ago
@maximas1986 Season 13 was as you describe. Even in solo q my entire lobby had trails, even my teammates. What's funny is I've never played ranked to a point I got a trail. My lobbies were super sweaty but at least my teammates were too.
maximas1986
3 years ago
@hayhor honestly I find it fun to play when everyone is sweating or relaxing at the same time.
it makes me look forward to the next match regardless of the result of the previous one but that's only when the playing field is equal and no one is forced to carry anyone but everyone is supporting each other.
( fairness is fun )
Axs5626Sxa5001
3 years ago
@reconzero

1) “ Taking a win away from a guy who just started the game and has twenty matches in two weeks, so that some sweaty diamond grinder can feel better about himself is pitiable.”

I (and many) want specialized lobbies for people who are new. People deserve a safe space to learn and they 100% should have lobbies curated to ensure the game has a “onboarding phase”.

2) You’re making the sports comparison. I didn’t sign up to play in a league or tournament. I’m not getting paid to play Apex. So please don’t compare above average players in an activity to people who are making money through said activity. Yes some people stream and play in tournaments, but that’s typically those ALL the way on the right side of the skill bell curve (the top 5-1%).

And even if we were going to use the sports analogy, sports leagues don’t stop the strong teams from playing the weak teams during lower stakes games (the pre or regular season games). The team in last place doesn’t get to say “hey no our opponents are too good”. The matches are played and a natural outcome/hierarchy is established. I think there is a relationship here that can be applied to non-ranked video game modes.

I think the common misconception is that people who are above average have no life and take pride in beating lower skilled players. I think above average players just want to win more.

But I think the reality is that a VERY REAL “valley” exists for players who are above average but not good enough to be professional. The top 1% (the whales) will win no matter what. But when you create a matchmaking structure that makes above average players the exclusive fodder for these whales, you absolutely rob above players of the rewards they were seeking in the first place “to win more than people who aren’t as good as them”— this is only achieved if everyone plays everyone (in an environment where the stakes are low).
Kyldenar
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@reconzero wrote:
@Axs5626Sxa5001

I got as far through that as I could before it made me want to put my fist through my screen.

The idea that non-ranked gameplay should be a feeding ground for high-level players, and that it's completely okay because there are no ranks at stake, is the single most offensive thing I've ever heard on the subject of sbmm. It's exactly the thing that high-level players say when they're tired of slogging it out with other high-level players and start feeling put upon, as if they have some intrinsic right to crap all over lower-level players for no other reason than because it would be more fun for them.

And I'm also tired to death of the very mistaken idea that ranked gameplay is reward driven and unranked gameplay is "casual," "non-competitive," "insert your own rationalization here for why it's okay to pit what amounts to professional athletes against kids." Rankings are a head game that do not REWARD players, they DESCRIBE their abilities. Players very mistakenly think of it as reward-based, and hence my description of it as a head game. The only reward in any game, imo, is a win. And last I checked this game offers wins in both ranked and unranked gameplay. Taking a win away from a guy who just started the game and has twenty matches in two weeks, so that some sweaty diamond grinder can feel better about himself is pitiable.

Virtually every competitive sport I can think of has gameplay broken into peer groups, grouped either by age or by skill. Little Leaguers very seldom, unless I've missed some new development, play against the Red Sox. And with reason. That kind of pummeling doesn't make the kids into better players, and it absolutely shouldn't make the pros feel all tough and manly. If it does then those people should be medicated. And barred from the sport.

Sorry about the rant but I've been pissed off about this since Halo 2, and it depresses me to have to keep defending something that seems so obvious. If you can explain it to me in a different way than Mr. Former Infinity Ward I promise to read every word.
AMEN!!!
This is what I keep talking about. Their EOMM doesn't work, except on the poor kids who think they will be the next twitch star and keep taking the abuse. It doesn't convince me to play more, it convinces me to do my "2 a day as ________" for 2 total stars and log out. It convinces me that dropping the match before we hit the ground because hot drop harry insists on taking me to Fragment is perfectly OK. It convinces me that this team game isn't a team game.
And I don't care about getting all the stars because I don't care about fully completing the battle pass because I will never buy it when I am the freaking product. A product that exists to feed kills and egos to those people that want to be 'content creators' instead of getting a real job.
Sorry, might be showing my age here but in my days 'content creators' made freaking ART be it paintings, literature, music, dance, something tangible and real that gave something back to humanity.
This (and all video games to me) is not my dang job. I have a job. It pays me very well to think of solutions to real problems and then solve them. I put in my 40 hours plus on that. I'm not going to learn this game as a 2nd job. I'm a super casual player. I play my single player games the first time on easy. If they want me to put more time into this game, then they need to make the "I don't care I'm casual" league.
And if they EVER want me to spend real cash on it, they better give me some single player content. For crying out loud, just give me the Apex version of Frontier Defense. Give all us crap casuals that that are here just because we miss Titanfall game-play and we'll go there, never to darken your BR again.
reconzero
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@Axs5626Sxa5001

SBMM is to this day a persistent feature of competitive shooters because without it a game cannot sustain a significant population over an extended period of time, something I suspect Mr. Rubin will rediscover in his new, sbmm-less project.

I think I understand the dynamic whereby masters-adjacent players are used as feeder fish for the master/predator player base. I'm also fairly sure that if you ask the average Apex player if they think that sbmm routinely feeds them to better players for easy wins that the answer will be a resounding yes. I know the problem gets worse as you approach the extremes of skill, but all you would be doing is pushing the pain threshold below your own particular point on the ladder.

The real fix, imo, is for developers to build games with easier skill curves. I know how that idea makes the best players want to slam their fists on their desks, but developers can have a steep curve or they can have a game where people such as yourself do not feel that they're slamming their heads against a wall. I really don't believe you can have both.

"sports leagues don’t stop the strong teams from playing the weak teams during lower stakes games"

False equivalency. Neither you or I are taking a paycheck to show up to this game. If Respawn wants to start paying me to get my butt handed to me by the likes of whoever it is that's so good they can't get any other kind of match... then that's fine. I'll cash that check. In the mean time what you need is a secondary account soft cheat. It pains me to say it, but that is the socially accepted workaround for every single problem that sbmm unintentionally creates.

I will also say on the subject of your 361/2 win rate: Yes, that's particularly brutal. But this season seemed to start with some kind of sbmm "problem" that had everyone facing lobbies of extraordinary difficulty. Except, of course, the whales. I'm sure it was done for their benefit. At any rate, my win/loss was definitely way off my average. I know people want to blame sbmm for every single thing that goes wrong in this game, and in truth it is the root of a lot of evil. But the one thing I can think of that would be far, far more evil is a game with no sbmm at all.