Forum Discussion

Re: Don't fix the real issues. Keep on pumping those cosmetics. Good job.

@Cro_Pittt , @espadakillar69 , you do realize that modeling and coding are two wholly distinct skill-sets? Just because someone can model assets and create textures using relevant programs, (blender, maya, etc) does not at all guarantee programming knowledge. Further, employees have specific roles in a company. If you look at the role listings at Respawn Entertainment, you can see numerous “Asset Managers”.

Putting someone whose job and experience is in modeling onto a coding team isn’t going to help at all. That would be like taking a sculptor, and making them mine. Just because the jobs involve similar tools and skills, doesn’t mean they possess the knowledge and training to apply them to a different field.

Further, Respawn has stated several times that many audio issues are caused by device bottlenecking. That means that the device someone is attempting to play on isn’t up to specs. Games like Apex require fast read/write times and a lot of volatile memory to function properly. Most people, when they build or buy PCs, however, only focus on CPUs and GPUs. This results in them thinking that just because the CPU can handle high speed, it is going to get them. Just like putting a hose in a stream won’t get you a high pressure spray, hooking a fast component to one that can’t feed it that high is utterly pointless.

Additionally, PCs will struggle from hardware variations. Every Xbox and PlayStation is virtually identical, and thus will perform basically the same. PCs, on the other hand, fluctuate wildly. There are too many variants to optimize systems for every machine out there. Thus, it falls on the hardware manufactures to adhere to conventions, something that often does not happen. All the little oddities of each build add up to a system that behaves in unexpected ways.

As for stability, Respawn has confirmed time and time again that they are working on it. All of the Titanfall franchise runs on a derivative of Source. This engine is really old, in terms of software age. Enhancing its functionality requires reprogramming either of the current base, or the creation of a new engine. Both of these tasks can take decades.

       In fact, this is one of the main reasons that the servers are still at 20hz. Respawn devs have personally said they are trying to upgrade the refresh rate. This is limited for the above reason: the Source engine. All the code is tied to the functionality of this engine, and since Apex began development has been calculated based of 20hz. If you consider Apex was in development for about 3 years, and they started talk of upgrading the servers year one, it would still be AT LEAST another full year to convert the game, WITH THE ENTIRE DEV TEAM working on it. Factor in that they still have to support this version in the meantime and Respawn’s major hiring, and it’s probably closer to 2-3 years, assuming it can even be done without a full engine overhaul.

7 Replies

  • BaldWraithSimp's avatar
    BaldWraithSimp
    5 years ago
    @CrazyEyedOldMan 'PCs will struggle from hardware variation' so why is audio bad even on consoles? Care to explain? I can understand the server or netcode being engine limited, but something as essential audio not working is unacceptable.
  • Cro_Pittt's avatar
    Cro_Pittt
    5 years ago

    @CrazyEyedOldMan Just because Respawn says something it doesn't mean it's 100% true. Why do we have the SAME issues we had since game launch? Why did the game got worse since launch in many things? Why did the devs say that they fixed audio at S7 launch when it remained the SAME (trash)? Why do we get to see the same cheaters play for days and days without getting banned? Why do we see implemented things nobody asked for while other features badly wanted by the community are not even mentioned in their "devstreams"? Why do we have to see things that look like not tested before getting released causing bugs and glitches? 

    You're basically saying that Respawn has nothing to do with the issues and that the players are not capable of building a good PC. I highly doubt that ALL of the players are so dumb that they can't assemble a decent PC. Why do we see other games work just fine if people can't do that? 

    People is tired of seeing the state of the game not changing, and Respawn atm is lucky because there is not a valuable alternative similar to Apex (for now).

    I get it, programming is not easy, and it's not a relaxing job, but they are paid for this and they chose to create this game. They should've known that this type of game needs constant and solid updates.

    If a guy criticizes Respawn for some dumb stuff i'll be the first to say that they are wrong, but to pretend also that they can't do anything for more years is unacceptable.

  • CrazyEyedOldMan's avatar
    CrazyEyedOldMan
    5 years ago

    This is actually minorly at play with consoles as well.

    Take for instance the Xbox. Consoles that can play include:

    Xbox 1 v1

    Xbox 1 v2

    Xbox 1s

    Xbox 1x

    Xbox Series S

    Xbox Series X

    All 6 of these consoles run on different hardware, which behaves differently. All of them have their quirks. One example is that the XB1X does not handle read requests on recently updated data perfectly.

    Further, each Xbox is still made of computer circuitry internally, which while standardized, still has some variation.

    Additionally, each console is under a different use load. Some people play apex and that’s it, some are in parties, some are streaming music while playing. Thus, bottlenecking still occurs here.

    Also, consoles can use a LOT of different audio profiles. Every conversion that must take place increases the time that file spends in memory.

    This is actually the reason why pathfinders used to be so quiet. The file for footsteps couldn’t be loaded from solid state to volatile memory fast enough, especially with all the other data that needed read concurrently, such as his model, textures, and other data associated with the player.

    Until the enhanced edition releases for the newest releases, the devs are sticking with a “best for both” style build that causes some performance loss on upper and lower age consoles.


    *Disclaimer: this will void warranties, proceed at your own risk*

    Something that might help, for you specifically, is to open the casing of your console, and thoroughly clean the air pathways of dust. The consoles thermally lock their read/write speed at high temperatures to prevent damage. This further decreases audio quality. If you are even braver, you can check the integrity of the thermal paste. The older the console is, the more likely this is an issue.

    Lastly, if you utilize a bluetooth headset, know that you will lose a LOT of audio due to the awful quality of communication protocols in the Bluetooth standard. This is why PS4 and Xbox use custom comms profiles for their controllers, and why Apple created AirPlay.

  • BaldWraithSimp's avatar
    BaldWraithSimp
    5 years ago
    @CrazyEyedOldMan And why they haven't added any other permanent game modes, even as simple as team deathmatch? Something to do with hardware differences lol?

    It's coming in S9 but point still stands.
  • @Cro_Pittt 

    1: Nice straw man.

    2: We do not, in fact, have all the same issues. Similar issues do arise from time to time, but the causes are entirely different. Those issues that still persist tend to be those that are fundamentally tied to the source engine, such as the English Keyboard layout reinstalling on Windows. Workarounds can be developed, but some things are just unfixable.

    3: Many community features are actually quite challenging to incorporate, or require dev time that is needed elsewhere.

    4: Testing actually does occur. However, remember the axiom “give a monkey a typewriter and eventually it will write the works of Shakespeare”? That’s what often happens in game development. If the dev team is one monkey, it’s got a certain set of odds of encountering, replicating, and confirming a bug. The community for apex is a factor of around 10^8 that of the dev team and testers. From a purely statistical standpoint, more bugs are going to be found by community than dev team.

    5: Instanced releasing. Many bugs already have been fixed when they release, but due to the approval time of code changes must wage until the next revision is published.

    6: I didn’t say most people can’t build a good PC, what I said was many ignore read/write speeds. That is defined by a lot of factors, such as humidity, cooling system integrity, and the code being run. As I said, source is, as far as software goes, pretty old. Thus, some newer hardware needs to convert calls to newer versions, which just propagates issues.

    7: Legacy code. Working for Respawn requires special training in their engine operation, due to its heavy modification. All the recently hired engineers still won’t be perfectly familiar with the quirks of the engine. In time, they will become more efficient at their roles and the quality will improve. Keep in mind the team at Respawn is much smaller than most other similar games. (~80 vs. 700 for Fortnite).

  • CrazyEyedOldMan's avatar
    CrazyEyedOldMan
    5 years ago

    They’ve already touched on that. Apex saw a large lull in player base, and their data showed that LTMs and alternate modes actually lowers the pools for both, and people get frustrated due to the subsequent match pool increase. That’s why Pathfinder’s town takeover was tied to the normal game mode.

    Additionally, the datamining community has already confirmed the existence of several unfinished modes, which have been recipe ingredients development. From a game population standpoint, it would be better to release many modes at once, so that people have more incintive to return to/join the community. Releasing a single mode at a time would result in population shifts akin to an ltm, a spike then a fade. A cluster of modes added would see a much larger spike and retention, something that is much better from a profit standpoint.

  • BaldWraithSimp's avatar
    BaldWraithSimp
    5 years ago
    @CrazyEyedOldMan Adding more permanent modes would give more player retention as people can switch modes when tired of BR so the engagement increases. Valorant has deathmatch mode, people play it regularly for warm up even though it came after Apex, so your 'multiple modes at once' theory is wrong. I already pointed they are adding another mode in S9, after two years of same old *.