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But if we push the algorithm even further and make it so my lobbies aren’t 60% preds, but closer to 100% pred, how is that an enjoyable experience for me?
Because you NEVER want to play against these players, I ONLY have to play against these players? Sure this is exactly how ranked should work— but pubs?
When everyone only plays their doppelgänger, everyone wins at equal ratios— this is called equal outcomes and its kind of a bad thing for pvp activities. Ranked: fine. Unranked: no way.
- DarthValtrex5 years agoHero (Retired)@Axs5626Sxa5001 I agree with you. I’m not on your level skill wise, I occasionally land in your lobbies. When I am in them, they are definitely difficult and an entirely different game. Some of those players just have insane movement, i’m trying to chase them down and they are shooting me in the back. I’m sitting there going uh I’m so confused!! Lol
- 5 years ago@DarthValtrex Hey at least the game is swinging you between lobbies— this provides you with a bit of variance (sometimes your games are hard and sometimes they are medium difficulty). I find it concerning that people want STRICTER SBMM, which would actually make pubs more consistently difficult than they need to be.
Additionally, asking for stricter SBMM is also like saying “I want to win more and I want more skilled players to lose more.”
And of course, the most extreme argument I keep hearing is “all players should win at the same rates and skill shouldn’t = winning more.” This idea is the most ridiculous to me.- DarthValtrex5 years agoHero (Retired)@Axs5626Sxa5001 yeah, it’s good for me though and the player base, when I’m doing well I’m not destroying people who have no chance against me.when I struggle I get into lobbies I can handle.
That’s why I’m supportive of SBMM. But I don’t think we need another top tier. Those lobbies would be insanely difficult. It would also take forever to get a match 20-30+ minutes. When I’m posting 1500-3k rounds and in the try hard lobbies, match making takes a bit longer.
- 5 years ago@Axs5626Sxa5001 I don’t know the exact solution to this and I’m certain it’s not straight forward but I think your missing my point somewhat. It’s not that I NEVER want to play these people it’s that I’m always playing these people and they are so far above my skill lvl it’s sucking every bit of joy out of a game I love to play. Either I’m struggling to win against a lobby filled with smurfs or I’m lucky enough to get a good match then get punished for it with an even bigger spike in high lvl players, as if somehow the SBMM now thinks I’m god tier......which clearly I’m explaining I’m not. I think people who don’t cheat by smurfing and play in the bracket they are meant to be in (I have great respect for that) don’t understand just how crazy the smurfing issue is.
- 5 years ago
In my smurfing experience, as soon as you hit 100 kills the smurfing element is over. I still use my 'smurf' account to warm up if I've had an extended Apex break, but the lobbies with my 'smurf' account are sweatier than with my normal account.
- 5 years ago@IdleHandsNo1
Ok, I hear you. And look, I definitely don’t want you to have a miserable experience.
A possible solution is a reduction in the current SBMM (for pubs). As someone here has already mentioned, a big reason there are so many smurfs is because the lobbies right now for people in the top 10% are pretty nuts. The only people winning games consistently with ease are the top top players in the world. One might say, “well that’s the way it should be”, but I totally disagree. If a player is legitimately better than 90% of the rest of the player base, they should win far more consistently than players in the bottom 50%— unfortunately that’s not always the case due to sbmm. The more aggressive any SBMM algorithm is (the better it is at pitting you against your clone), the more everyone starts winning and losing at the same ratios, regardless of skill.
I don’t support players doing this, but people are creating smurfs left and right to escape these rank-liked pubs. Smurfing is WRONG because it thrusts a highly skilled player in a lobby that is PREDOMINANTLY weak players— intentionally weak from the perspective of the algorithm. The only understandable reason for someone to smurf would be to play with their lower leveled friends.
A better solution?
I genuinely feel like if pubs weren’t so grueling and there was more VARIANCE, people would be less inclined to smurf.
But let’s talk about the big V word: Variance. What would variance look like and what are its implications?
Variance in matchmaking would look like: the average lobby would have lots of average players, some stronger players, and some weaker players. —From the perspective of the weak player: the lobby is difficult but not EVERY engagement is against the insta-melt pred team. In fact, you would RARELY run into a three stacked pred team by virtue of statistics. In this environment, the more a weak player plays and improves towards the “average skill level”, the better their performance would be (more kills, more damage, more wins, etc)
That’s just my take. I don’t want SBMM eliminated, just toned down. Does that mean the game would become slightly harder for people below the “average skill level”— yes. But these players can absolutely change that by playing and practicing.- CCbathwater5 years agoSeasoned Ace
The problem is not really preds in my lobby, the problem is a 3 stack of them while the game expects me to carry. If I'm expected to carry then there shouldn't be an op 3 stack in the same lobby, then it should be 20 teams of one above average player who has to carry. It's just games like my last one I don't feel are fair when you see a champ squad with all the trimmings. There are just too many games like that.
- Vdstrk5 years agoSeasoned Ace
@Axs5626Sxa5001
The problem is, without a functioning SBMM, a pred, a master or a very good player will "wreck havoc" in any lobby, except for lobbies in which there are other preds master or very good players to contend with.
I believe SBMM to be necessary, but it has to work. A pred should never be placed in a "bronze level" lobby, being that in pubs or ranked --which is currently what happens (MM pairs the pred with 2 weak players in an attempt to nerf him/her). Sure, lobbies are going to be, respectively to any level of skill, more challenging and require some efforts. This is what, IMO, has to be expected from a pvp focused game.
A pred should have a maximum match bracket to be between Diamond and Master. Weaker players should never see a pred, and a pred should never see a bronze, silver, gold, and plat.
I have a .7 (point 7) k/d, yet I get the following (picture) players in the lobbies often enough to be annoying.
This happens because it is not skill based, it is "performance" based matchmaking. It is all artificial and is very relative. The problem is that when the algorithm adjusts, IMO, the jump is out of the sensible. It does what you see below.That is why a match seems easy, and the next 5 or more are insta wipes. The jump is not incremental and conservative, is bold and reckless. I am not sure why that happens, it could be that there are not enough players left to offer a softer increase in difficulty after winning a match, or doing whatever the algorithm thinks supports a player being placed in a higher skill match... (top skill?)
- 5 years ago@Vdstrk
I’m not sold on the “master pred will wreck havoc” on a lobby that’s compromised of all skill levels. Perhaps they have a much higher chance of winning, but it’s not guaranteed. And honestly— no disrespect, skilled players beating lesser skilled players (in a non-ranked setting) isn’t a controversial idea; skilled players should ABSOLUTELY be winning matches more frequently than lesser skilled players.
If you oppose that idea, then that likely means that you support the “everyone should be winning at similar rates” idea— as mentioned earlier, this idea is “forced equal outcomes” and is a ridiculous idea for a pvp activity.
Personally, I think the game ran fine during seasons 1-3. SBMM existed but it wasn’t as strict as it is now. Back then, weaker players won less frequently, average players won at their own consistency, and the skilled players won more frequently. But to appease the desires of weaker players (“I want to win more than I do now”), they increased the SBMM.
I’m all for creating safe spaces for new players— they need an environment where they can learn. But after a certain experience level you should be exposed to opponents of all skill levels (in non-ranked modes). Skill shouldn’t “mean less” simply because weaker players want to win as much as people who practice more than them. I definitely appreciate your previous input though.- Vdstrk5 years agoSeasoned Ace
@Axs5626Sxa5001
I am against allowing very skilled players to march on very low skilled players like the situation above. As i said, I have a .7 k/d. The player in the picture above played several ALGS competitions (besides they were 3 stacking, I only play soloq).
I am fine with SBMM making and I definitely support a lower win rate, as long as SBMM works appropriately. Better players should ONLY square it off with better players (I believe that a pred team winning against a bronze lobby has achieved no real victory)]As an analogy, why in any sports, a no name team cannot play against the top of the top? Say a no name team will not be allowed to play against the Dallas Cowboys? IMO is because there is nothing to gain for anyone in that situation. It will be a pointless running simulation in which the Dallas Cowboys will literally bully the no name team. Not even in training that will happen.
Here it should be the same.
I do not really understand why it is so bad for stronger players to fight stronger players only.
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