Taking the fun and skill out the game

The stuffs you describing was the main problem of the game, and why the pick rate was so heavily focused on few legends. And even if we forget the pick rate for a second.

Every single streamer was Path or Wraith, nothing else.

Every single tournament was 100% Wraith pick(its still is), and 100% Pathfinder pick(his pick is reduced and its kinda dependable on what your team style and strategy is, and its between him/Caustic/Giby). Now will can remove the Caustic after the nerf and put Revenant in there.

You are saying the game was fun ? But it was not fun for the players that were experience  this completely OP mechanics, aka from the other side your enemies.

People were complaining hard time, because it was completely broken.

Again this game is about skill at the higher end. You shouldn`t be allowed to go 1v3 recklessly and have an ability to allow you to get out of trouble. This is plain bad and stupid. Its fun for you, but its terrible frustrating for the enemies and will just make them rage quit.

You can go 1v3 and still have fun, but you need big AIM and movement abilities, not an OP escape mechanics.

As far as just buff the others and let me catch Wraith and Pathy for example, this was impossible and the main reason was no other legends have such strong tools and no matter how much you buff them, they never ever will get a good pick rate, and never ever will catch Wraith or Pathy, or even come close.

Its because of their tiny and crazy movement animation hitbox and because of their kit, and that future such a strong out of jail self card, and such strong team abilities.

No other legends have that, so you can`t balance them.

As far as Loba, again you will not reward skill with his bracelet making her insta. And this will be totally OP and will make people get mad.

Why shouldn`t i get a kill on her, if i beat her on aim/movement, yet you want to punish me, who beat her on a aim/movement duel, and you want to reward her on losing the duel. How is that fair and fun ? Its not.

When talking about fun you got to take the view of both sides.

I get we get a different point and view on the game.So let`s just agree to disagree.

For me the game was insanely unbalanced in the first seasons and there was like 2-3 viable legends to play, now the situation is a lot different.

@LordloshBang If this game didn't have abilities then i would agree with you but this isn't Battlefield or Tarkov and ability usage is a skill itself with how you cycle your abilities and their cd's that complements yours and your teams combat.

We should, imo, raise the bar of other legends instead of nerfing the most popular ones (that people have spent money on and leaves a sour taste on the majority as they are by far the most picked) and you say they can't buff certain legends to compete with Wraith and Path but Crypto who is one of, if not the lowest picked legend would likely be my main if i didn't have to be stationary while using his abilities.

If it's possible for him then i'm sure it would be for any of them with a rework.  If you suggest any legend i could tell you how to make them more viable as there are some i have ideas for and want to play more often but haven't as they just simply aren't as fun.

Hypothetically, think of a zero delay, reduced cd, skilled player using Loba against S2 meta Wraith, Path and Wattson. You run in and down their Wattson then start shooting their wraith, both take damage and she phases out while you teleport to the next building to pop a bat. You see the path on the roof looking for you and teleport above his head and PK him in the face coming down and as he tries to grapple off you finish him with an r99, now the wraith climbs up the side and you finish her too. All 3 would have strong abilities but how you use them would make a difference.

We can agree to disagree and the one thing i do agree with is legends are more equal now which is a good thing but the game overall is slower and less fun, which is not.  I'm not arguing with you as active discussions like this can only be good for the game and i respect your opinion even if i disagree with it but my way would make for a faster paced and more enjoyable experience, imo.

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@apostolateofDOOM wrote:

@LordloshBang If this game didn't have abilities then i would agree with you but this isn't Battlefield or Tarkov and ability usage is a skill itself with how you cycle your abilities and their cd's that complements yours and your teams combat.

We should, imo, raise the bar of other legends instead of nerfing the most popular ones (that people have spent money on and leaves a sour taste on the majority as they are by far the most picked) and you say they can't buff certain legends to compete with Wraith and Path but Crypto who is one of, if not the lowest picked legend would likely be my main if i didn't have to be stationary while using his abilities.

If it's possible for him then i'm sure it would be for any of them with a rework.  If you suggest any legend i could tell you how to make them more viable as there are some i have ideas for and want to play more often but haven't as they just simply aren't as fun.

Hypothetically, think of a zero delay, reduced cd, skilled player using Loba against S2 meta Wraith, Path and Wattson. You run in and down their Wattson then start shooting their wraith, both take damage and she phases out while you teleport to the next building to pop a bat. You see the path on the roof looking for you and teleport above his head and PK him in the face coming down and as he tries to grapple off you finish him with an r99, now the wraith climbs up the side and you finish her too. All 3 would have strong abilities but how you use them would make a difference.

We can agree to disagree and the one thing i do agree with is legends are more equal now which is a good thing but the game overall is slower and less fun, which is not.  I'm not arguing with you as active discussions like this can only be good for the game and i respect your opinion even if i disagree with it but my way would make for a faster paced and more enjoyable experience, imo.

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And this will end up in a complete joke. This ain`t dota or League of Legends. Ability have place in the game, but their power creep should be stay in check, otherwise you are going to end up in a mess.

I understand you don`t agree with my point, but i complete disagree with yours.

No matter how much you buff Bloodhound or Bangalore for exmaple, you won`t ever get to Wraith or Parth level of season 1 for example.

Sorry but you are talking nonseses. Bangalore in his whole existent never ever got a buff, and forget about fairly. Only Bloodhound got buffs, yet he is still useless at top or competitive level and got zero pick rate in there. Same with Bangalore.

No changes to this legends can make them a must or even a choice for competitive level.

As far as movement, even without the ability, this is the best game, that offer such a good movement. No other game comes close to this one.

And players will always move from one game to another, this is the life after all. Just like people move from one car to another and so on.

A lot of people moved to Warzone, simply because Apex was too hard for them. Even Shroud said this. In Apex you actually need real skills in all areas, unlike Warzone.

As i said the game was completely unbalance in its first seasons. And even top Wraith and Pathy streamers admitted this and that they needed a nerf.

We have different view of the game, so we can`t come to agreement. Its not because who is right or wrong.

Tho as i said, the game was never in such a good shape, in terms of balance, which speaks for Respawn work and that they are doing the right stuff with not just buffing and totally mess up the game.

A thing I was thinking is that they could increase the aoe of Bangalore’s ult by adding more missiles to the ends. It wouldn’t be anything drastic, but it would increase Bangalore’s effectiveness a bit. 
Also a slight reduction in charge time for her ult could bring her up.

I would love if the slowing effects of Bangalore's ultimate didn't affect her.  That would be huge, and not too OP, IMO. 

@LordloshBang What part is nonsense? Bangalore got a buff in S3 if memory serves me right.. Double ult damage from 20 to 40 i think it was but you can go search the exact details.

In the case of some legends they need complete reworks not buffs for competitive play but they could ease the situation as things are and just off the top of my head both Titanfall and Dirty Bomb have far better movement than Apex.

Yes people move away from games and change but some are standout issue or things they have removed that people enjoyed. Those people would have stayed if things were different or prioritised differently. Nerfing favourite legends, sound issues, game stability not addressed and other things over time accumulate and push people away.

@Sir_Named Reducing cd or increasing AoE (not sure if that was part of a previous buff or not) is one way and as she's a soldier, reduced recoil could be part of her passive. Not so great for comp scene but easier for new players to get the hang of the game.

Edit: @rloaz34 Anything that hinders you or your team less can be considered a good buff. Just look at Caustics recently for example.

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@apostolateofDOOM wrote:

@LordloshBang What part is nonsense? Bangalore got a buff in S3 if memory serves me right.. Double ult damage from 20 to 40 i think it was but you can go search the exact details.

In the case of some legends they need complete reworks not buffs for competitive play but they could ease the situation as things are and just off the top of my head both Titanfall and Dirty Bomb have far better movement than Apex.

Yes people move away from games and change but some are standout issue or things they have removed that people enjoyed. Those people would have stayed if things were different or prioritised differently. Nerfing favourite legends, sound issues, game stability not addressed and other things over time accumulate and push people away.

@Sir_Named Reducing cd or increasing AoE (not sure if that was part of a previous buff or not) is one way and as she's a soldier, reduced recoil could be part of her passive. Not so great for comp scene but easier for new players to get the hang of the game.

Edit: @rloaz34 Anything that hinders you or your team less can be considered a good buff. Just look at Caustics recently for example.

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Season 3 was long ago, not recently ago, but okay.

Bangalore ult is crap, from 20 to 40 damage, means nothing. Ain`t helping her even one a bit.

Reworking completely so much legends, its not an easy thing and you should do a lot of work to do so.

But i won`t argue more about that. 
I just don`t agree with your point and i think totally different. Just like you don`t agree with my point.

For me Legends in Season 1-2-3 was completely broken. Also no matter for what game we are talking about, MK, POE, Diablo, AL or whatever, you don`t achieve good balance with just straight up buffs for the weaker characters. You are going to end up with a mess.

@LordloshBang We're only mid S5 so not last season but the one before, which wasn't that long ago considering we're still only in the first half of the second year. So when you say to someone ''Sorry but you are talking nonseses. Bangalore in his whole existent never ever got a buff'' it is in fact you who is talking nonsense.

The fact that the damage was doubled made it a huge buff and anything with an increase of 100% is pretty significant. She might not be picked for scrims or tournaments but she's viable in higher tier lobbies as ShivFPS for example plays her often in master rank.

Lifeline was ok and apart from the combat medic role being taken away from her by other legends that have nothing to do with being a medic ie Gibbys dome buff and Mirages rez ect.. she was fine where she was both in pickrate and W/L ratio but they made an unnecessary rework on an ability i have NEVER heard anyone complain about especially when others should have had the attention to ''change the meta''. 

If it takes so much work and resources to do then why do you think that is?

Every game you mentioned isn't the same genre or even a shooter for that matter. If something is OP then nerf it and equally if something is underwhelming then give it a buff but changing things around for the sake of it and taking that ''fun factor'' out the game isn't a good thing.  It will try to accomplish something that is already out there and better. 

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@apostolateofDOOM wrote:
@LordloshBangIncrease the speed of Bangalores passive and activation of her ult or the duration of bloodhounds tactical even if by a couple of seconds would make them both quite formidable on top of their fairly recent buffs. 

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I was talking about this exactly. Season 3 was not fairly recent. You can call season 4 recent, not season 3. :D And everyone knows Bangalore got 1 of the worst ult ingame, so uping the damage from 20 to 40, ain`t doing a thing for her.

Claiming anything else is nonseses.

You obviously ain`t playing a Bangalore, saying this is a huge buff. :F

And from the top streamers, yeah Shiv is the one that maining her. She is bang average and everyone knows that. She got zero pick in competitive, and close to 1% in high to top level of gameplay.

As far as the Lifeline rework i agree that it was unnecessary and she was perfect(she was the third most picked legend for many seasons). But they probably wanted to shake the meta in competitive, cause she wasn`t picked in there. But still she was picked heavily in ranked, which is quite a thing.

But i don`t agree that no one complain about her. There was plenty of complains about her from their mains, and they wanted her buffed and to change, because the so call Giby took her role.

I was giving a example, and genre doesn`t matter, because you can simply buff stuffs in other games i mention. The topic is exactly the same, achieving good/perfect balance with buffs only. Ain`t happening at any game, any genre. You end up in a mess.

Again we have completely different view on balancing and as i said lets agree to disagree. Don`t see more reason to even talk about this topic.

Tho about some of the stuffs you were talking, aka Lifeline rework and you probably have Wraith tactical rework in mind as well i agree with you to a certain degree.

But again just like with the zipline nerf i don`t like it, but i kinda understand from where they are going from and why they are doing it.

@LordloshBang I feel you're just being argumentative with the buff but i'll skip it. My suggestion that if her ult took effect in say 50% less time it would be much more useful in A2/AD both slowing and dealing damage as it can be avoided a bit to easily atm which is its primary weakness (not the damage after the buff) because getting caught in the middle will hurt especially if you're in an engagement.

The complaints were of other legends taking the limelight from her and being as, if not more, effective in an area she predominantly should be as a medic. No complaints specifically on the fast heal that was changed. There were on the combat drone being stationary and her more often than not useless ult that are both basically the same...but go figure. xD

Let me be clear, both Wraith and Path needed a nerf just as others need a buff and it should be done both ways but still in keeping with what players originally enjoyed with their legend and invested in. It doesn't concern me directly but imagine playing for 6 months and used to avoiding getting stuck with arc stars and phasing out playing hyper agro as wraith, so you spend however much to get the heirloom to now not do the one thing you enjoyed.  Bit of a kick in the teeth to turn an originally instant q into a small delay and now into a large one with a totally different reason for using that ability and changing your playstyle or legend because of pickrate. 

I personally was a Path main and agreed he needed a larger cd on his q but the delay when it attaches wasn't needed. It feels less responsive and isn't as enjoyable. As for the zipline you can still get to the area before the new nerf takes effect so it isn't as bad as i thought it would be while still addressing the tournament issues, which is fine.

Anyways, i'll leave it here. Thanks for contributing to the discussion. 👍

For Bangalore i always said she is okay the way she is. But with the new stuffs going on, aka Octane buff, Mirage huge rework and buff, Revenant huge and constantly buff(this is actually a legend that got buffed in consecutive season/patches) she will fall too far away from that sweet spot that she was.

I always said she was balanced and in that sweet spot, and Respawn should have actually worked towards her. They should have bring everyone to her level(tiers always going to exist but close to her whether its up or down) and this was actually the best way to achieve balance.

The problem now is that a lot of legends surpass her greatly.

I have never ever have problem with a strong character, if he is fair(which in my eyes mean that she may be the best, but to not have OP/Broken abilities and to actually have a way to counter her).

I don`t know how much you are reading here on in reddit, but there is constant complain for every legend, even if they are perfectly fine. There was like thousand threads for buffing Wraith phase, because it was too slow and etc. A lot of threads about Lifeline.

They actually make Revenant probably S tier(not play him, but he is incredible strong now) and with a completely broken ability(aka his no range Ultimate), and still there was plenty of threads that this buffs are not enough for him and he needs better passive, how his tactical and ultimate is useless and so on.

I actually think Respawn is getting too much of a bad feedback and are making mistake of it, and thats why they are doing whole reworks and over the top buffs.

As far as spending on skins, heirlooms and so on and getting use to certain legend/ability, this is a game with seasons and you should expect constant changes, so you should expect such things. Tho i get the drastic stuff changes and i understand it. But its all on you to decide on that. The game is free to play and everyone knows that balance patches are coming and you should expect everything from it. :D Tho i understand your point of view as wel.

Anyway i like when the discussion is civil and you can learn something from it. It was a nice to chat with you, but i spend too much time on it. ^^
All the best.

@LordloshBangEh, I wouldn’t say the no range is op.
The timer still limits things significantly, and if you don’t die then you’ll get caught turning into a normal person and lasered. It’s a balance between playing semi-conservatively and suicidal.

I would say that buffing weaker legends is a good idea. If they do it carelessly, it can lead to OP abilities, but that doesn’t seem like it’ll happen.

Edit: But did you guys really have to make each response like 3 paragraphs long? Yeesh.

@LordloshBang Yea me too. Good chat and take care man. 

@Sir_Named Nope. 😛

In all honesty I am not sure what the "vision" for this game is. I took a break from late in season 4. Came back at the start of season 5 and within a week was off of it completely. Came back this week when I saw an update and event. Loaded in and played my first game of A & D. My random teammates decide Airbase was a good landing spot since that is where the ship was flying over first. We land on one side with 4 other squads right by where the respawn beacon is normally. I drop one with my mozzy and we are getting pushed by the remaining squads so I zip across getting shot at with a triple take do the normal hop and low and behold i am swimming in the ocean. At this point I search out the patch notes and see this as an "improvement". Like wtf, so basically you can be a sitting duck on a zip line going in a straight line for someone with little to no skill can clap you? Yet they added re-direct to Octanes jump pad to counter the exact same thing? Logically speaking the 2 are counter intuitive to each other. 

Said it before and will say it again, it is their game, and as long as they are bringing in new players who cares right? 

A couple of games in and went to ranked and from Tuesday to last night fought my way to Diamond and will leave it at that for this season. 

To the developers if you even read these things, if you haven't noticed yet player retention is going to be an issue. As of the end of season 4 no one I have ever played Apex with was or is planning on playing again. Using discord to find teammates and those that started in season 0 with me are no longer playing. Why you might ask, connection issues and lack of solos are the top 2 reasons followed by hit reg issues and getting shot through walls, doors etc. Why is solos such a big issue if you have friends? Well it is simple, the odds you are all on at the same time every day each of you individually plays is not likely, and random teammates are if nothing else pretty atrocious in this game. From rapid disconnect when downed to afk, the list goes on. 

I lost count on how many friends have left this game after 150 or so on my friends list are no longer playing for the reasons listed above. 

I will probably try again in season 6, but seriously doubt I will feel the need to play or post anything further. Btw disconnects and connection issues in general are still a thing? Seriously not sure how that can be a non worked out issue at this stage in this games lifecycle.

@mastiffslinger I think most saw the potential the game had but the direction it went wasn't to their expectations. For better or worse that's up to Respawn/EA to decide.

They could do a lot more to incentivise people to keep playing and I have seen many suggestions for example just to add more badges using multiple characters, getting x amount of kills per weapon ect which doesn't take much work to put in as the trackers are already there.

I agree it's hard to find good team mates after some leave and repeating the process it becomes tedious to keep replacing them after awhile. What makes it worse is they're removing, nerfing or reworking everything that lets a single player help carry a game on the most popular/enjoyable legends. Not saying they didn't need balancing because Respawn have actually done an ok job on that front, credit where it's due but they have made the game less enjoyable overall and could have been done differently imo.

As for servers, i made a thread awhile back what i think people would like to see but it's not gonna happen unfortunately.

@jTiKey Anyone can spam space and bounce on a zipline but doing so while not getting hit from multiple angles and shooting back did require a fair amount of skill actually.