Re: Specialist and freeclass system is Better than the OLD Class system VIDEO inside

42 Replies

Stew360
4 years ago
@X-Sunslayer-X
I do not ignore anything i chalenge the embeded beleifs that classes somehow " promote " teamplay to any extend when it does not . Also all past BF have the system classes wrong and even games who does it right still pose a chalenge when playing with randoms players let me give exemple ..

Insurgency either the mod the game or Sandstorm the sequel have what we can call " classes " with certain custumization options in each . Wich prevent to have to much snipers or to much x and y . But when playing Insurgency if you get bad players at playing either snipers or whatever classes the system become very frustrating as they are not doing their " jobs " properly while you or your friend could have . Thats said at least you didnt end up with 30 recon crouching in bushes like BFBC2 use to have in Linear Rush maps ..

BF classes system as always been flaw and never brought anything positive to the game in itself .. Games like MAG are great exemple .. You did not had fixed classes but you had a Skillstree type of thing where players could set up passive ability with skills points that could lean toward X and Y pplaystyle .. Players choose what they were the most capable at and ran with it .. the least kill heavy players were choosing more like Engineer type of bonus and so on while Assault guys with High KD choose combat specifics stuff like reload speed increase etc..etc...

Yet In MAG you needed Engineers , Medics , Demolitions to destroy bunkers turrets , and so on and there was no issues having every type of players you need to repair , destroy , push , revive etc.. And the team work was off the charts compare to Any BF i played with randoms .. Because MAG had a great VOIP proximity also great command structure with squad leaders , platoon leaders and OIC who communicated , broadcast and organised ..

The problem with all BF as always been the same since playing with randoms .. DICE since bad company 1 has shifted to a squad focus design around 4 squad mates It was okish in BAd company since it was a 12 vs 12 game where 4 man was 1/3 of the team .. But this design show its flaws when it get to 64 players and now 128 makes it even worst ..

We need Bigger lobbys , Clan supports , VOIP , Command structure , Proximity VOIP with allies at least and even ennemy if possible .

This is where the game is lacking ...

As for your exemple of " selfish players " What was the difference between the Angel you descriibed and the " Assault class " from Bad company 1 ? He had a grenade launcher on all weapons capable of destroying walls and opening stuff and damage vehicles and kill players , He had a Medpen capable of healing himself and so on .. But sometime what you call " selfish players " as long as they play along the objective and rak ups lots of kills are more usefull than a so call " team players " who sit behind and does nothing ..

As for weapons , All BF have been different , in BF2MC medic had a medpen type of thing , Mortars calls , and a LMG , the BF2 PC was different and so was BF3 or 4 Medics wich became a variant of the assault sub class ..

The plain reality is there is NO benefits to the old classes system .. Zero benefits .. forcing players into X and Y weapons or gadjet link togueter make no real sens and does not had any benefits to the gameplay or teamplay .. Now at least Some snipers can be Medics and be usefull instead of having x and y gadjet they wont use same goes for any classes ..
Also it remoove the corny ability to swap classes just by swaping guns on the ground wich was to me more of an exploits than it was a feature
fragnstein
4 years ago
@Stew360 You hardly even play the bf games. Its like me telling the CoD community whats good for their franchise going forward. . Classes represent the real army structure of having front line medics, recon units, engineers who build and repair and the front line grunt assault class. All this based with models representing guns and vehicles.
Stew360
4 years ago
@fragnsteinOh really ? Well last time i check ive played thousands of hours in BF games From 1942 and thousands of hours in BF2 and BF2 MC as well as almost 800 hours in BFBC , Thousands of hours on BFBC2 on PC and Ps3 and X360 yep i had it on all 3 platform but the X360 version was terrible .. Then BF3 BF4 i hate world war games now so i barely played BF1 and BFV and didnt like it .. its to old and boring ! My favorte BF game is 2142 because the titan Mode was incredible attacking the titan was amasing .. Also i have over 3500 Hours + in planetside 2 and 1000+ hours in planetside 1 so yep And so far 400 hours of BF2042 so i think i have a pretty good grasp of every aspect of it .. Air Ground and Vehicles , 120mm tanks , etc.. I am a combine arms game guy so i know my stuff
Also last time i check i was playing BF3 10 years ago lol and BF4 was unplayable for a year after launch it became somewhat playable in august of the next year lol
And i had all the DLC for every games
Also the main reason we abandonned BF in favor of planetside 2 it was become BF never offered bigger than 4 to 5 squad members and we had a community that was able to put 20 to 30 guys at the same time ... So we got frustrated and anoyed that the match kept switching us from side to side while in the same party .. the game did not allowed us to play togheter and so much more issues with finding match we got bored of it .. So we got into planetside wich always had sufficient room for us to play as a team as a clan
JayB_2103
Seasoned Hotshot
4 years ago
@Stew360 I think what @fragnstein is trying to say is that you haven’t played the newest games for thousands of hours. You don’t like world war games that’s understandable but then you have no clue how good BF1 was and although BFV is never going to be as good as BF1/3/4, it’s still a solid game now. I don’t blame you for not playing the latest BF games which were World wars but then saying I played more than 1000 hours of BFBC,BC2,2142,2,1942 is irrelevant because they are the oldest games in the franchise and a lot of stuff has changed since then. BFBC2 being more than 12 years old at this point. So the last time you played a Battlefield game properly was probably like 8-9 years ago. Although you can express your opinion on this forum I don’t know how right it is for you to defend 2042 when the last battlefield you played was in 2013. I’m with @fragnstein on this one.
Zoikon
4 years ago
@Stew360 just got to ask, did you play those BF's on pc or console?
In the good old days we rented a server and drove it as a clan server. Then we could easily fit 30 guys for practice. You can't be sad that 30 guys can't fit in a public server.
Persistent server could also let your gang slowly join a full public server.
I don't get your reasoning.
Seems like you haven't gotten the full experience in BF, people did more teamwork than in 2042. Ask any of us.
If players played bad one round, they had to change strategy (e.g. not camp) the next round, only possible with persistent server though.
SirBobdk
Seasoned Ace
4 years ago
@Zoikon
In the good old days we rented a server and drove it as a clan server
—————————————————————————-
Agree, we had a community and clans. Played on the same rental servers with many of the same players. BF has over time become a game with anonymous players on anonymous servers.
Stew360
4 years ago
@DanielRicciardo
I played enough . I played BF1 Beta for about 30+ hours then the released game for about 8 hours lol .. I played BFV for about 30+ hours also BETA and release .. Even played recently

The only things i liked about BFV was crouch sprint moove , the Slide wich is a bit better than BF2042 wich was similar to BFV in the beta yet DICE " listen " to the so call community and nerf it heavily .. Same goes for what they did to the weapons it was this so call " community feedback " who made them make these totally broken innacurate weapons at launch ... The problem is there is no homogenous BF community .. Everyones are asking totally vastly different things and have worlld appart vision so DICE simply cannot listen " to the so call community " because no matter what they do they will be reprimended for it by a portion of this so call community ..

I played BF4 barely few months ago .. i played BFV few months ago as well lol and i played more combine arms games like Delta force black hawk down , Operation falshpoint , BF2 project reality mod , BF2 , Planetside 1 , Planetside 2 , Frontline fuel war , Original battlefront , and so on and on than most peoples could ever dream off lol

Thats said its not about me here .. i played so far over 400 hours of BF2042 .. I have mastery 40+ to 70+ with 4 specialist .. Mastery 40+ on more than 10 weapons and 5 vehicles Night bird etc.. I play Air , ground and infantry all very well so was i in past games .. And so was i in Planetside 2 wich was heavily inspired by battlefield in terms of gameplay gunplay vehicles control etc.. And we left BF3/4 because of one main issue , it was almost impossible to play as a clan and it was a pain to be in a squad and remain into that squad and this problem still exist today in BF2042 ...

Here me playing BF4 in june 2021

Here is me playing BFV Recently as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sjbg2r526I
JayB_2103
Seasoned Hotshot
4 years ago
@Zoikon I’m glad you mentioned this I forgot to write it in my reply that I used to play with a group of 15 players on playstation after BF1 was released. We all used to get into the same server regardless of there being 15 players with the help of the platoon system and the server browser. Sure it would take atleast 5 mins for everyone to get into the game but we did play together on the same team for hours. We had like 3 different squads of 5 on the same team. And I have seen other platoons do the same thing on other battlefield’s too. So @Stew360 point about 20-30 people not able to join the same server is not valid.
Stew360
4 years ago
@Zoikon
I have played " scrim " on private servers but these momments were scarse and rare and was complicated and time consuming to pull off ..

While games like MAG or planetside wich had proper matchmaking/ Platoon forming system where in MAG we could fill a Lobby of 4 squads of 8 up to 32 players and start a matchmaking just like starting a regular matchmaking in any games like Halo BF or COD or whatever games that have matchmaking .. It made things easy hassle free and fun ..

Planetside 2 has a faction system where no matter what your clanmates are in the same faction as you .. So we could be up to 48 players in a platoon with squads of 12 .. So there was no issues at all for us to play toghueter ..

Our experience in BF games with players own servers have been as follow .. Being banned for being to good , Being banned or kick for taking the vehicles the admin or his friends wanted . Being switched from one side to the other for being good , Being auto balanced and our squad of 4 /5 were splitted .. And so on and on ..

I already mentioned we did some Scrim in private servers against other clans but these match were laborious and time consuming just to set up the team , gets everyones in and ready ..

In planetside 2 peoples can jump in and out at any momments

In MAG peoples could join at least up to 32 players to start a matchmaking so it was more than enough and BF need something like this and fast
X-Sunslayer-X
Seasoned Ace
4 years ago
@Stew360 i mean maybe its just me but i struggle to see the benefit of a player using Falk/Angel with a long range rifle. but you know who benefits? the player who can now heal himslef and then most likely have ammo as well.... this benefits literally no one and is part of the reason traditional class-systems worked in that regard better. a recon player would eventually run out of ammo and needed to move up or redeploy...
i am well aware no matter the arguments i bring to the table will ever reach you but you constantly compare 2042 to entirely different franchises which makes to me at least no sense.
and how do you justify "The plain reality is there is NO benefits to the old classes system .. Zero benefits .. forcing players into X and Y weapons or gadjet link togueter make no real sens and does not had any benefits to the gameplay or teamplay". how is the medic sniper prone god knows where an improvement? or the Sundance flying solo somewhere to the team? they just fly around with LMGs, spray down the unfortunate player closest, die eventually and then repeat never to contribute much to the rest of the team let alone squad...
i am not asking for all the restrictions but a few should be made
for example lock away certain weapons from certain operators to better highlight their roles for the team/squad but i can already hear your blood-pressure rising at that idea
Stew360
4 years ago
@X-Sunslayer-XIts benefiting their squads base on wichever mission they set themselves into achieving . There is part of maps that favor snipe or scouts and a squad dosnt need to have 4 recons abilitys even if they all need snipe like weapons to moove foward .. one can play casper 1 angel 1 falk 1 Rao or whoever they need .. They are not forced into classes duplicate and squads are the ones creating they own team composition without being forced into gadjets or weapons they dont need
All your arguments are not base on improoving teamplay or squad play your arguments are always based on limiting the solo players you dislike even if its at the price of hurting teamplay
Zoikon
4 years ago
@X-Sunslayer-X The specialist's traits should take a spot as accessories/gear. I mean you could be Sundance, but you have to choose the wingsuit at the expense of AA or recoiless. Which isnt realistic anyway. Wingsuit with that heavy gear xP
Maybe gear/weapons should have weight? You'll move slower the more heavy equipment you wear.
Stew360
4 years ago
@Zoikon They already do .. Specialist have 1 gadjet . BF4 soldiers had 2 gadjet slots but were limited to x weapons wich was a terrible design
Zoikon
4 years ago
@Stew360That's one way of looking at it.
I feel you put a lot of subjectivity and pathos into your arguments. Wingsuit could be a gadget limited to Sundance, but as an option. How come BF4 had terrible deisgn?? They had main gun type, Carbines, shotguns and DMRs to choose from. In BF4 you still could addapt to type of combat, E.G. CqC or long distance etc. But the classes had advantages in some areas.. how is that bad?
Blackidus
4 years ago
@ZoikonI´m with you here, the balance between specialists would be much better if they each had different drawbacks for using them.

As you said mobility specialists like Sundance and McKay should not be able to carry heavy gadgets or weaponds. Dozer and Boris might not be able to use traversal sprint because they carry heavy gear and so on.

Each specialist need a drawback, this would have been solved automaticaly with classes. In previous games there are positives and negatives for using each class as it should be. Othervise there is no need for teamplay.
Medjumurac
4 years ago
@Stew360Restrictions breed creativity. That's why they worked so well for 20 years. Other games in the series had variations on loadouts but the basic structure remained the same.

If you give people the freedom to pick whatever they want, they all gravitate to the same 'meta'. This isn't even exclusive to Battlefield (or FPS games in general). World of Warcraft had this exact issue, which prompted a complete overhaul of the talent system to discourage 'cookie cutter' builds.

Picking a class for your favourite weapon also meant that you had to perform the intrinsic duties of that class. I didn't pick engineer in BF4 for the repair tool but I'd use it when the need from teammates arised.

I also think you might be romanticizing squad based play. Pickup squads rarely coordinated that well. But at least with classes people would naturally fall in to their chosen role within a squad/team.
Stew360
4 years ago
@Medjumurac Nope it does not , it limits what peoples can do and peoples are copy and pasting others and just like what ive seen from past BF peoples playing the same map 24/7 with the same classes 24/7 with the same " meta weapon " 24/7 was the result of classes restriction and decades of copy pasting mechanics ..

Now Team composition can be way more varied , squads can setup way better teamplay and squad synergy .. As if Freedom does not bring creativity ...

And no there was no requirement to furfill the classes roles ... How many time have i sit in front of a Medic or a engineer or a support in past BF games Screaming with comorose I need Amo , I Need repair and never get it even getting in the way of their scope and still they didnt care ?

How many time medic players aka assault were sitting on my dead corpse and didnt revived me ?
Stew360
4 years ago
@Zoikon
There is no subjectivity in this .. Classes now work a bit like BF2 where only you have 1 rocket or 1 repair kit etc.. not 1 2 or 3 like BAD company 1 support wich had Mortar strike , Repair kit , Healing ...

BF4 had 2 gadjets , Rocket + repair kit for engineer or Rocket + tank mines etc..

Now the specialist ability and traits count as a Fixed Gadjet whithin an archetype wich are somewhat sidegrades and the other gadjets are mainstream teamwork gadjet that make its more similar to BF2
Medjumurac
4 years ago
Nope it does not , it limits what peoples can do and peoples are copy and pasting others and just like what ive seen from past BF peoples playing the same map 24/7 with the same classes 24/7 with the same " meta weapon " 24/7 was the result of classes restriction and decades of copy pasting mechanics ..
The specialist system does not address this issue. There are still copy+paste variations running around because it's easier to copy the meta now. Most of the replies in this thread attest to seeing all kinds of weapons amoung classes and I'd happily add my voice to that. Have been playing BFV for multiple says now and I'm seeing a lot of variation in the guns being used per class. It's rare that I'm killed by the TYPE 100 by multiple medics in a single game. This pattern applies to every BF game I've ever played going back to BF1942. There was rarely (and I only say rarely because I personally can't recall) a period where engineers only ran one primary weapon. You don't even see that consistency with snipers. You'd need someo hard numbers to prove otherwise, or its your own anecdotal experience vs everyone elses in this thread (who largely don't agree with you).
Now Team composition can be way more varied , squads can setup way better teamplay and squad synergy .. As if Freedom does not bring creativity ...
Again, you're romanticizing the squad system. Most don't do this. People aren't even using VOIP. Outside of clans, squads are not sitting down in the lobby to organise loadouts. This wasn't a problem in any previous title either. I don't consult with my squad before picking recon. I just want to use the Lee Enfield today. But having set classes means that I'll at least spot enemies, lay down spawn points, flare, etc because not doing so would be detrimental for me, and by extension the squad and team.
And no there was no requirement to furfill the classes roles ... How many time have i sit in front of a Medic or a engineer or a support in past BF games Screaming with comorose I need Amo , I Need repair and never get it even getting in the way of their scope and still they didnt care ?

How many time medic players aka assault were sitting on my dead corpse and didnt revived me ?
This problem hasn't gone away. It's a player mentality/awareness issue, not a mechanics issue. I have rounds in every game across every genre where I experience good and bad team mates. BF2042, even during the beta, was no exception. Many Falcks will still run past my bleeding body without a second glance to tunnel a kill. BFV's solution to this was to allow players to take ammo/med packs off of friendly players. Best system so far.
The specialist system does not address this directly or indirectly. It's just as easy to pick medic as it is to pick a medpack gadget. Doesn't mean they'll use it to help teammates. You'd need hard stats to prove that per gadget, people are healing more.
Incidentally, the most consistent high quality team work rounds I've had were in BF4. At least when it came to healing/resuppy/repairing.
Stew360
4 years ago
@Medjumurac
I have seen Much more varied gameplay and choices in Weapons , Specialist , Gadjets than any previous BF games and peoples change more often their loadout troughout the match to addapt to certain capture points or situation .. IF they have to deal with aircraft , tanks , loads of infantry and so on ..

in BF4 Peoples used 99% of the time the Ace23 or the AEK and that was it
Medjumurac
4 years ago
in BF4 Peoples used 99% of the time the Ace23 or the AEK and that was it

You've criticised this kind of statement in others throughout the thread - that's anecdotal evidence. It's negated by my own experience. Even playing now, with a mature meta, I'm seeing all kinds of weapons amoung assault players in BF4. BFV as well. The ACE23 and AEK are popular, the latter especially in close quater maps. But they're not representative of 99% of loadouts. I logged in to BF4 and server jumped a few times (with limite servers atm) and have not seen anywhere near what you're describing.

Again though, specialists don't fix this. If there's a map that favours a weapon, everyone will select that weapon. The only difference is people that want to heal/repair/resupply now get to keep those gadets, and still have their favourite weapon. So they're not forced to pick an alternative if they want to fill another role at the same time.

As an example:

BF4 lockers - You can go assault with an AEK. One of (but not only way) to get a lot of kills. But only assault players get to do it. If you like to heal, or if you want to contribute by healing, you have to pick medic. So no AEK. Same goes for ammo resupply, or disabling explosives/grenades, or using a rocket launcher, or creating cheeky spawn points (recon). So if you have fun doing those things, you have to trade off the best primary (arguably).

With 2042's system, you wouldn't have to. You can do those other things, and still use the AEK. So then what would stop everyone from using the AEK + whatever gadget they want? Nothing. Hence you'll have many more AEKs.

Convserly, if you wanted to use the M249 and go prone in corridors, you'll naturally be resupplying teammates as well. Your primary informs your gadget choices, or your gadget choices inform your primary. Everyone being able to pick whatever they want means you'll get killed by whatever gun everyone agrees is the best primary, plus whatever gadget they find interesting. I haven't seen stats on specialists yet, but if you have, please share them here. I'd assume there are a handful that are seeing disproportionately higher usage percentages.

A very general complaint from the 2042 playerbase is that people are running the same metas all over the place. Your entire contention is based on the opposite of this. i.e. Your main argument is that you're seeing more variation in weapon choice now than in previous titles, but it's contradicting the broader community who are having a very different experience. At 30-something pages of mostly disagreements, maybe you should consider that you're having a non-standard experience with the game for whatever reason?
Stew360
4 years ago
@Medjumurac Yet its the truth bring data i will be prooven right 😉
Botax_Okky
4 years ago
This thread, wow!!
Specialists system is better, think about situation like this
I like using Assault Rifle and LMG but I also like reviving teammates so we can keep going pushing the objectives while also can equip M5 Recoilles if there's some naughty Bolte need to get rid of. How do I do that in class systems? The game force me that I have to choose if I like using Assault Rifle so then I cannot revive teammates or when I try to grind for LMG Tier 1 I have to stop reviving teammates
Restricting players is not the answer for better teamwork instead they will choose the best weapon for them to kill enemies. You know there are some people that used Engineer in Op. Locker map lol, why? Because they like using PDW and their gadgets are useless in infantry only map
Let the players choose whatever weapons they like combined with no restrictions so they can bring useful gadgets while being effective as a team because they can kill enemies with weapons they are good using at
Do you guys never think like that?
Stew360
4 years ago
@Botax_Okky Amen brother !
Blackidus
4 years ago
@Botax_OkkyI admit I thought it sounded good on paper to, but in practice in a Battlefield game?

It does not work, it´s just chaos, sure previous games where also chaos, but it whas controlled chaos. The idea of specialists would fit better in a smaller scale spin-off Battlefield game.