I've been playing enough of Rivals to get my riflemen to level 12 without spending hardly anything on the game. There are two major issues I've noticed that can be easily fixed with changes that greatly increase balance, competitiveness, and fun.First of all, there needs to be a map preview and then deck selection. It's common knowledge that some maps favor certain types of decks (i.e. tech vs rush). However, there are also maps that heavily favor certain units as well. On a few maps, the Juggernaut and arty are kings. On others with open space, units with Raider are king. It is not fun to get a map that sucks for your units. It's even worse when you then get matched on that map against a player lucky enough to have a deck built for it. This is especially obvious during events with just one or two maps. If you don't play to the map's strength with certain units you're not going to win all the matches in the event.That's the key problem with how matches are currently setup, luck is a major factor in determining victory. My suggestion is to show players the map before the match starts, they then have 5-10 seconds to choose one of their three decks to play with. Problem solved. No more wishing for "the right map" to be selected.The other issue is significantly worse in its impact but also has a somewhat simple fix. A six card deck is not large enough given all the units that are available. To illustrate why this is a problem let's look at the Orca Bomber and how a GDI player might counter it. First, let's start with all the GDI anti-air units:Missile SquadRhinoPitbullSlingshotTalonHammerheadWolverineZone TroopersSandstormLet's figure out what units can actually do something against an Orca Bomber. We can immediately exclude all the infantry from that list, they just can't stand up to a bomber. The Rhino can be taken off for not doing nearly enough DPS. That leaves us with five units to choose from, which seems decent, but let's list them out with some more details. I'm going to put next to each unit how many you need to STOP a bomber. Not eventually kill it, not damage it, but how to stop it from completing a full bombing run and getting away. This is also assuming the same level for your units and the bomber.Pitbull (3-4)Slingshot (2-3)Talon (2-3)Hammerhead (1-2)Sandstorm ⚽"Well that makes sense, 3 Pitbulls are about the same cost as a bomber!" Not really. That's three units to maybe kill one unit of equal cost. Not only that, you WILL lose some of those Pitbulls while the Orca Bomber might get away. I'm not talking about some newbie player who doesn't know how to use a bomber, I'm talking about somebody in Masters or Tib who knows what they're doing. At the end of the day, it just isn't economical to throw away 2-3 units just to kill one unit of near equal value. Not only have you lost your units, but the enemy has caused collateral damage against your other units. While it's true that not everybody runs Orca Bombers, you're going to get trashed in Masters or above when you do run into somebody with one. Unless you run with at least a Hammerhead or Sandstorm in your deck.And that's the major, gaping, glaring flaw right now in game balance. There are several units in the game that can only be economically countered by a select few units. If you happen to run into an equally skilled player with one of those units and you've got no specific counter you might as well just close the game and start up another match. We've just looked at ONE unit in the game, and we already have to dedicate one of our deck slots to one of two units if we want to ever be able to counter it. Do you honestly think that the Orca Bomber is the only unit in the game you can expect to go up against that requires specific counters?This is why we need more than six unit slots in a deck. Make it six normal slots and a seventh "support unit" slot (e.g. units like the Hammerhead), but this needs to be done. Without it you will have a large selection of units never being used at higher levels. Adding a seventh slot will increase deck variety, add depth to the game, make unique units more viable, and actually make the game more competitive and easier to balance.There are multiple solutions to these two problems. It's not too important which one is used, what's most important is that a solution is actually put in place. I'll still play this casually when I'm sitting in the bathroom, but that's all this game is to me until the serious issues are fixed. I've got no reason to buy diamonds for events when I am forced into using certain units just to have a chance in each match.

The beauty of a 6 slot deck is that no one can have the perfect deck. Every player is vulnerable and has a weakness in some way with only 6 cards. If if you want an OP Whale unit, you are going to have to sacrifice something vital for it. No rifleman for scouting or taking out scarabs for example early in the game to accommodate that Orca Bomber. You want scouting and the Orca Bomber, then you have to remove shockwaves and make due with just rifleman.

@XPlayerJ I don't know how much experience you have in the RTS genre, why/how you play this game, etc; so I won't make any assumptions and just start at the basics.The average player wants to win. That's their goal. They are going to do whatever they can to improve their odds at winning. Let's say you're in Tib league, that means you have EIGHT DIFFERENT MAPS that can be randomly selected. There are simply too many variables to build a deck around. The only variable you can count on is that you won't have a deck optimized for the map you're playing.So if you want to win you have to focus on that one variable. You will want to build a deck that's balanced and has strategic/tactical options on any of the maps. This actually leads to a very stale meta. Tech units are not a good pick at all for a balanced deck. So they get left out and players end up focusing on the units you get from the war factory. Yes, you can run into some players who don't play that way. But if you're of equal skill and have a balanced deck you are most likely going to win. Your chances of losing go up when they get lucky and the map favors their deck over yours.Having an option to pick from one of three decks you've built after seeing a map increases the variety of units that you can competitively use. The way maps affect deck choices goes beyond "aggro vs tech". Even as GDI there are some maps in Tib league that favor MG squads over snipers, and others that favor snipers over MGs.Let me break this out into a list:The majority of players play to winIn order to win, you must have a deck that isn't crippled by the map you're playing onThere is a large pool of maps that are randomly chosenRelying on a less than 50% chance that your specialized deck won't be crippled is a losing strategyPlayers will gravitate towards a singular meta leading to stale, boring gameplayI hope this makes it clearer, but it's really simple. Random maps lead to choosing between a stale meta or relying on luck.Besides, what's more entertaining? Immediately having the upper hand because you got lucky or pitting your skill against an opponent on a level playing field?

@Marine_CorporaI I don't want a "perfect deck", I want a competitive deck. This game is not "competitive" if I can build a balanced, well thought out deck and have no chance of winning due to my opponent happening to have the one deck that counters mine. Any game with a deck system needs to be balanced in such a way that you always have options.If the devs are going to introduce units that you MUST have one of a certain set of units to counter then we need more deck slots. This isn't something as dumb as "I can't compete with air units because I brought no anti-air units". There are units in the game that can only be effectively countered by a handful of other units, and they aren't even hard to get units like the Avatar. It's at the point where you can't have a 100% viable deck as GDI past Masters without the Hammerhead.

And you can also trick a bomber to drop bombs early so that it runs out of bomb before reaching you and bombing its friend on the way

There are a lot of good tips for dealing with different units but some of them, like tricking it to bomb early, is a lot easier said than done. A lot of this sounds good on paper, but it really doesn't work when going up against an experienced player. Personally, I would love to use Orca Bombers but I just haven't gotten the cards to do so. With the practice I have been able to get with them I can tell you that going up against a smart opponent with them makes a strategy like this useless.But I don't want this to just be about one unit. The problem is that with the units that have been added you cannot have a truly good deck without seven slots. Again, I don't want an unbeatable deck, that would unequivocally be bad for the game. I just want to have enough flexibility to have a balanced deck that doesn't have critical weakpoints. In the current state of the game, no matter how well you try to build your deck there will always be at least one other deck that will absolutely crush you if your opponent is of at least similar skill.You might think "but that's what balance is!", you'd be wrong. Balance is having good, fair competition. You can't have that with 6 unit decks and random maps. Luck is a deciding factor in Rivals; that's really, really, really bad for an RTS.There has been talk about how this is supposed to be a competitive game. I would love nothing more than to see it actually become one. But right now, it is anything but competitive. The events with lower level caps and limited map pools help a lot. That in itself is proof that this game has a fundamental problem with randomness/luck. However, in the higher end of the events my experience has been that there is a very stiff, successful meta with little room for variation. It's not a symptom of unit balance, it's caused by a lack of options.I'm an RTS veteran. I've been playing the C&C series since 1995 when it was first released on DOS. I've been a top 2% player in Company of Heroes back when it was popular. In Rivals, I got to the top 50 in Tib League before it got filled with P2W level 15 players and had unit access tied to medals. I know what I'm talking about. This is NOT a competitive game, but it has the potential to be a great one.So, that's my rant. I'm just fed up with seeing so many RTS games come just a few steps away from AAAA greatness and falling short. I'll keep on hoping for Rivals to fix its flaws, but I'm not holding my breath.

Forum Discussion

iLikeToSnipe21

7 years ago

Two suggestions to instantly improve game balance

I've been playing enough of Rivals to get my riflemen to level 12 without spending hardly anything on the game. There are two major issues I've noticed that can be easily fixed with changes that greatly increase balance, competitiveness, and fun.

First of all, there needs to be a map preview and then deck selection. It's common knowledge that some maps favor certain types of decks (i.e. tech vs rush). However, there are also maps that heavily favor certain units as well. On a few maps, the Juggernaut and arty are kings. On others with open space, units with Raider are king. It is not fun to get a map that sucks for your units. It's even worse when you then get matched on that map against a player lucky enough to have a deck built for it. This is especially obvious during events with just one or two maps. If you don't play to the map's strength with certain units you're not going to win all the matches in the event.

That's the key problem with how matches are currently setup, luck is a major factor in determining victory. My suggestion is to show players the map before the match starts, they then have 5-10 seconds to choose one of their three decks to play with. Problem solved. No more wishing for "the right map" to be selected.

The other issue is significantly worse in its impact but also has a somewhat simple fix. A six card deck is not large enough given all the units that are available. To illustrate why this is a problem let's look at the Orca Bomber and how a GDI player might counter it. First, let's start with all the GDI anti-air units:

Missile Squad
Rhino
Pitbull
Slingshot
Talon
Hammerhead
Wolverine
Zone Troopers
Sandstorm

Let's figure out what units can actually do something against an Orca Bomber. We can immediately exclude all the infantry from that list, they just can't stand up to a bomber. The Rhino can be taken off for not doing nearly enough DPS. That leaves us with five units to choose from, which seems decent, but let's list them out with some more details. I'm going to put next to each unit how many you need to STOP a bomber. Not eventually kill it, not damage it, but how to stop it from completing a full bombing run and getting away. This is also assuming the same level for your units and the bomber.

Pitbull (3-4)
Slingshot (2-3)
Talon (2-3)
Hammerhead (1-2)
Sandstorm ⚽

"Well that makes sense, 3 Pitbulls are about the same cost as a bomber!" Not really. That's three units to maybe kill one unit of equal cost. Not only that, you WILL lose some of those Pitbulls while the Orca Bomber might get away. I'm not talking about some newbie player who doesn't know how to use a bomber, I'm talking about somebody in Masters or Tib who knows what they're doing. At the end of the day, it just isn't economical to throw away 2-3 units just to kill one unit of near equal value. Not only have you lost your units, but the enemy has caused collateral damage against your other units. While it's true that not everybody runs Orca Bombers, you're going to get trashed in Masters or above when you do run into somebody with one. Unless you run with at least a Hammerhead or Sandstorm in your deck.

And that's the major, gaping, glaring flaw right now in game balance. There are several units in the game that can only be economically countered by a select few units. If you happen to run into an equally skilled player with one of those units and you've got no specific counter you might as well just close the game and start up another match. We've just looked at ONE unit in the game, and we already have to dedicate one of our deck slots to one of two units if we want to ever be able to counter it. Do you honestly think that the Orca Bomber is the only unit in the game you can expect to go up against that requires specific counters?

This is why we need more than six unit slots in a deck. Make it six normal slots and a seventh "support unit" slot (e.g. units like the Hammerhead), but this needs to be done. Without it you will have a large selection of units never being used at higher levels. Adding a seventh slot will increase deck variety, add depth to the game, make unique units more viable, and actually make the game more competitive and easier to balance.

There are multiple solutions to these two problems. It's not too important which one is used, what's most important is that a solution is actually put in place. I'll still play this casually when I'm sitting in the bathroom, but that's all this game is to me until the serious issues are fixed. I've got no reason to buy diamonds for events when I am forced into using certain units just to have a chance in each match.

21 Replies

XPlayerJ
Rising Vanguard
7 years ago
Half of everything you said is wrong.
1- The game always shows the maps!
Every league & Every event allows players the opportunity to see the maps which you will play on.
You can look at the maps in the inform tab prior to any fight.
2- Increasing the Deck Slot Size is a bad idea.
Increasing game balance comes at a cost.
The Cost is you sacrifice deck creativity.
If you were allowed to put every GDI unit in a deck, you would have 100% Balance.
But every deck would contain same units.
You would have no deck deviation or creativity.
Deck deviations & Deck creativity make things more interesting.
The game would be boring & repetitive if otherwise.
The only part of your discussion which was right was your Orca Bomber discussion.
The Orca Bomber is over powered and needs a nerf.
We have told the game about the over powered nature of the Orca Bomber for some time now.
We have told the game about the over powered nature of the Disruptor vs. Bases.
The game developers are simply slow.
They move at a glacier pace.
They have nerfed the Disruptor 3 times.
It has gone from killing a base in 3 hits.
to 3 hits & half.
to 4 hits.
The next nerf should be 4 hits & half.
Maybe, they will nerf the Orca Bomber in the same time frame.
iLikeToSnipe21
7 years ago
@XPlayerJ I don't know what league you're in, but it's definitely the case that some maps within the same league heavily favor other deck types over others. I mean, it's not like it's only one map per league. Of course some maps will be different in how a deck performs. This is especially the case in Tib league.

Of course having EVERY unit would be bad. That's not even anything like what I said. There are multiple units that are well balanced but are rarely used just because there's no room for them due to the deck size. Having one more slot will increase variety.
XPlayerJ
Rising Vanguard
7 years ago
@iLikeToSnipe21 wrote:
@XPlayerJI don't know what league you're in, but it's definitely the case that some maps within the same league heavily favor other deck types over others. I mean, it's not like it's only one map per league. Of course some maps will be different in how a deck performs. This is especially the case in Tib league.

Of course having EVERY unit would be bad. That's not even anything like what I said. There are multiple units that are well balanced but are rarely used just because there's no room for them due to the deck size. Having one more slot will increase variety.
I never said some maps don’t favor specific decks.
The game has been reorganizing maps for certain leagues on purpose!
They do it to shift the meta.
I don’t think you are aware of them doing it on purpose so 1 Deck can’t reign supreme forever.
They try to get players to redesign decks to different maps.
This is why what your saying isn’t really going to happen.
The game make money when people use different units & change units for different maps.
iLikeToSnipe21
7 years ago
@XPlayerJ We can both agree that certain maps favor certain decks. So if you're in a league with three maps that each favor a different deck... What happens if you randomly get a map that doesn't favor your deck (rather than the one that would favor your deck) and your opponent has the deck that is favorable to this map?
Do you not see how having maps within the same league that favor different decks adds luck as a component of victory? I am all in favor of having different maps to encourage different decks. But having this requires the ability to choose one of your three decks upon seeing the map selected. There are literally no downsides to choosing a deck after seeing the map. It adds another layer of strategy and removes another factor of luck from the game.
Not a single, successful RTS has had this problem in its ranked mode. If you were to have a desktop RTS with these random variables in its ranked mode, it would not be taken seriously and would fail. Honestly, I can't think of a single game with a ranked mode in any genre that does this.
XPlayerJ
Rising Vanguard
7 years ago
@iLikeToSnipe21 wrote:
@XPlayerJ We can both agree that certain maps favor certain decks. So if you're in a league with three maps that each favor a different deck... What happens if you randomly get a map that doesn't favor your deck (rather than the one that would favor your deck) and your opponent has the deck that is favorable to this map?
Do you not see how having maps within the same league that favor different decks adds luck as a component of victory? I am all in favor of having different maps to encourage different decks. But having this requires the ability to choose one of your three decks upon seeing the map selected. There are literally no downsides to choosing a deck after seeing the map. It adds another layer of strategy and removes another factor of luck from the game.
Not a single, successful RTS has had this problem in its ranked mode. If you were to have a desktop RTS with these random variables in its ranked mode, it would not be taken seriously and would fail. Honestly, I can't think of a single game with a ranked mode in any genre that does this.
Yes, the different maps add an element of luck, but it doesn’t mean I agree with you in allowing players to see maps pre-fight.
The favor of terrain can be against you, but you could be lucky as well and get it to benefit you.
This means both players share the same luck chance going into the fight.
In addition, I think the luck will statically balance out.
I believe you will have tons of chances to play in all the maps equally.
Mister_Crac
7 years ago
@XPlayerJ wrote:
In addition, I think the luck will statically balance out.
I believe you will have tons of chances to play in all the maps equally.
At its core, what is C&C Rivals?
It is a simulation of warfare.
Now, it is not a 100% realistic simulation of warfare, and it does not have to be. Still, I agree with the people who say that luck/randomness is playing a too heavy role in this game. An RTS game should not be a crap shoot. C&C Rivals however is a crap shoot in many regards.
iLikeToSnipe21
7 years ago
@XPlayerJ
I don't know how much experience you have in the RTS genre, why/how you play this game, etc; so I won't make any assumptions and just start at the basics.
The average player wants to win. That's their goal. They are going to do whatever they can to improve their odds at winning. Let's say you're in Tib league, that means you have EIGHT DIFFERENT MAPS that can be randomly selected. There are simply too many variables to build a deck around. The only variable you can count on is that you won't have a deck optimized for the map you're playing.
So if you want to win you have to focus on that one variable. You will want to build a deck that's balanced and has strategic/tactical options on any of the maps. This actually leads to a very stale meta. Tech units are not a good pick at all for a balanced deck. So they get left out and players end up focusing on the units you get from the war factory. Yes, you can run into some players who don't play that way. But if you're of equal skill and have a balanced deck you are most likely going to win. Your chances of losing go up when they get lucky and the map favors their deck over yours.
Having an option to pick from one of three decks you've built after seeing a map increases the variety of units that you can competitively use. The way maps affect deck choices goes beyond "aggro vs tech". Even as GDI there are some maps in Tib league that favor MG squads over snipers, and others that favor snipers over MGs.
Let me break this out into a list:
The majority of players play to win
In order to win, you must have a deck that isn't crippled by the map you're playing on
There is a large pool of maps that are randomly chosen
Relying on a less than 50% chance that your specialized deck won't be crippled is a losing strategy
Players will gravitate towards a singular meta leading to stale, boring gameplay
I hope this makes it clearer, but it's really simple. Random maps lead to choosing between a stale meta or relying on luck.
Besides, what's more entertaining? Immediately having the upper hand because you got lucky or pitting your skill against an opponent on a level playing field?
Marine_CorporaI
7 years ago
@iLikeToSnipe21 Best post of the month.
totorodc12345
7 years ago
Don’t b fool by some of the comments here. They are either EA staff or aligned to them in some way. This game is obviously not going to improve any better. Only thing would be to suck more money from you but do not deliver the best gaming experience. I hv made it my daily job to spread the news that this game is not worth your money. Take recently the resource challenge...cheats in majority of the matches. And the cheats is not from the players but from EA itself. What kind of cheats u may ask. Cheating u of your money by almost always matching you against players who always hv a deck that is superior to whatever deck you have. Outcome is to frustrate you enough hoping u will pay more to buy more decks. So all those commenters here who * about how to play and what strategy to win bla bla bla....my feedback is...if u can * pls allow me to feedback too. I hv played many EA games before....mostly C&C titles....this is by far the worse. If I am EA owner, this Rival team is the first I will sack for making many of your customers feel dissatisfied. My final advice...DO NOT SPEND ON THIS GAME. ITS NOT WORTH IT...ITS CHEATING YOU.
XPlayerJ
Rising Vanguard
7 years ago
@iLikeToSnipe21 wrote:
@XPlayerJ
I don't know how much experience you have in the RTS genre, why/how you play this game, etc; so I won't make any assumptions and just start at the basics.
The average player wants to win. That's their goal. They are going to do whatever they can to improve their odds at winning. Let's say you're in Tib league, that means you have EIGHT DIFFERENT MAPS that can be randomly selected. There are simply too many variables to build a deck around. The only variable you can count on is that you won't have a deck optimized for the map you're playing.
So if you want to win you have to focus on that one variable. You will want to build a deck that's balanced and has strategic/tactical options on any of the maps. This actually leads to a very stale meta. Tech units are not a good pick at all for a balanced deck. So they get left out and players end up focusing on the units you get from the war factory. Yes, you can run into some players who don't play that way. But if you're of equal skill and have a balanced deck you are most likely going to win. Your chances of losing go up when they get lucky and the map favors their deck over yours.
Having an option to pick from one of three decks you've built after seeing a map increases the variety of units that you can competitively use. The way maps affect deck choices goes beyond "aggro vs tech". Even as GDI there are some maps in Tib league that favor MG squads over snipers, and others that favor snipers over MGs.
Let me break this out into a list:
The majority of players play to win
In order to win, you must have a deck that isn't crippled by the map you're playing on
There is a large pool of maps that are randomly chosen
Relying on a less than 50% chance that your specialized deck won't be crippled is a losing strategy
Players will gravitate towards a singular meta leading to stale, boring gameplay
I hope this makes it clearer, but it's really simple. Random maps lead to choosing between a stale meta or relying on luck.
Besides, what's more entertaining? Immediately having the upper hand because you got lucky or pitting your skill against an opponent on a level playing field?
I don’t agree for dozens of reasons.
I simply don’t feel like listing them all out.
Letting people see the map they play on before going into the battle removes lucky from the game.
I think having luck in the game is a good thing.
You think having luck in the game is a bad thing because it can cause disadvantages.
I think disadvantages lead to opportunities for both skill & unskillful players.
I have played games with no luck involved at all.
Chess for example has no luck.
A very skillful player will always beat an unskillful player.
The result is the unskilled player will either improve or quit.
Most people end up quitting.
The elemental of luck allows the unskillful player the chance to win even if he is outplayed in the fight.
This helps the game as a whole.
This is why games like Poker are extremely popular vs. games like Chess or Checker.
You add more deck slots.
You show players maps before the fight.
You remove luck from the game.
The superior players will micro skills, deck design, & deck crafting will be number 1.
Everyone else will be number 2.
If you actually love playing this game, you shouldn’t want the game to be like that.