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Run: Han doesn’t shoot first! Say what?!","id":"message:4431377","revisionNum":1,"repliesCount":104,"author":{"__ref":"User:user:134103"},"depth":0,"hasGivenKudo":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:swgoh-general-discussion-en"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:4431377"},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:4431377"},"body@stripHtml({\"truncateLength\":200})":"Doh! Hey CG, ya might wanna fix this! :* <3 ","body@stringLength":"395","rawBody":"Doh! Hey CG, ya might wanna fix this! :* <3 ","kudosSumWeight":1,"postTime":"2018-09-19T12:26:38.000-07:00","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[{"__typename":"AssociatedImageEdge","cursor":"MjUuMnwyLjF8b3wyNXxfTlZffDE","node":{"__ref":"AssociatedImage:{\"url\":\"https://forums.ea.com/t5/s/tghpe58374/images/bS00NDMxMzc3LTQyNjU5aTM0N0Q2NDBCQTlFNTA3OEY?revision=1\"}"}}],"totalCount":1,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"tags":{"__typename":"TagConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[{"__typename":"TagEdge","cursor":"MjUuMnwyLjF8b3wxMHxfTlZffDE","node":{"__typename":"Tag","id":"tag:feedback","text":"feedback","time":"2023-02-05T06:25:45.000-08:00","lastActivityTime":null,"messagesCount":null,"followersCount":null}}]},"timeToRead":1,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:4431377_1"},"latestVersion":null,"metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":4583},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","canonicalUrl":null,"seoTitle":null,"seoDescription":null,"isEscalated":null,"placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}},"archivalData":null,"customFields":[],"body":"Doh! Hey CG, ya might wanna fix this! :* <3 "},"Conversation:conversation:4431377":{"__typename":"Conversation","id":"conversation:4431377","solved":false,"topic":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:4431377"},"lastPostingActivityTime":"2018-09-21T12:43:53.000-07:00","lastPostTime":"2018-09-21T12:43:53.000-07:00","unreadReplyCount":104,"isSubscribed":false},"ModerationData:moderation_data:4431377":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:4431377","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"AssociatedImage:{\"url\":\"https://forums.ea.com/t5/s/tghpe58374/images/bS00NDMxMzc3LTQyNjU5aTM0N0Q2NDBCQTlFNTA3OEY?revision=1\"}":{"__typename":"AssociatedImage","url":"https://forums.ea.com/t5/s/tghpe58374/images/bS00NDMxMzc3LTQyNjU5aTM0N0Q2NDBCQTlFNTA3OEY?revision=1","title":"_editor_hn_84mb9b4h8416.jpeg","associationType":"BODY","width":2400,"height":1124,"altText":null},"Revision:revision:4431377_1":{"__typename":"Revision","id":"revision:4431377_1","lastEditTime":"2018-09-19T12:26:38.000-07:00"},"ForumReplyMessage:message:4431422":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","id":"message:4431422","conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:4431377"},"author":{"__ref":"User:user:10734"},"revisionNum":1,"uid":4431422,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:swgoh-general-discussion-en"},"subject":"Re: Smuggler’s Run: Han doesn’t shoot first! Say what?!","readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:4431422"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:4431377"},"body":"
\"Waqui;c-1648175\" wrote:
\"Kyno;c-1647628\" wrote:
\"SnakesOnAPlane;c-1647601\" wrote:
\"Kyno;c-1647578\" wrote: Correct he doesnt shoot first, but he does get his bonus turn, as described by his ability.
The ability name says “Shoots first” and it says “...bonus turn at the start...”. The name and the “at the start” implies he’s first. In this case he doesn’t shoot first nor when he goes is it “at the start”. One can argue against WAI quite easily in this case.
He gets the bonus turn at the beginning of the match. A turn in this game is denoted by 100% TM. The name is a title and not a description of how the ability will work, that's what the description is for.
As always when multiple toons have 100% TM, there is no guarantee who will go first, although I suspect when event toons have this coded they will go before our side, but still in an order determined by RNG.
The wording always was and still is ambiguous. The text says Han 'takes a bonus turn'. This wording implies that he actually also makes his move. The actual implementation may be WAI (and it works well - no protests there), but it does not comply with the wording in the ability description and it never did.
In the case of Zaul lead, the wording is unambiguous. The text states that certain characters 'gain 20% Turn Meter' at the start of each encounter. That's a precise wording.
Similarly, the wording of the description of GMY's Masterstroke is, that he 'gains an immediate bonus turn'. Does this mean that he immediately gains 100% turn meter? What would be the difference of several other characters that gain 100% turn meter (B2, JKA, Biggs, etc.)? If yes, why isn't it simply worded like those characters - that GMY gains 100% TM? Or does it mean that GMY immediately makes his move with no other characters able to move before that immediate bonus turn? In that case: why so similar wordings for two so different behaviours (Han 'takes a bonus turn', GMY 'gains an immediate turn')? And Thrawn's grand Admirel's Command still only states, that it's a Turn Meter swap. It doesn't state, that the target immediately takes a turn.
Why all those confusing wordings? Why not be consistent and use the same wording for the same behaviour and use a clearly distinct wording for different behaviour?
CG really should change the text of Han's 'Shoot first' ability to make it clear, that he gains 100% Turn Meter instead of the ambiguous 'takes a bonus turn'.
Yes, Kyno, I've read your comments about this in previous discussions as well. 'Taking a turn' is defined by CG as receiving 100% turn meter. I know. However, it doesn't change the fact, that the ability description doesn't state that clearly. Changing the text would take a couple of minutes, with a few more minutes added for planning, testing and documentation - but it would save a lot of confusion for players.
Instead of repeating your comments, that Han is intended to simply receive 100% TM (which most players already know) why not move to the next step in the discussion and comment on the ambiguous wording of the ability description and the general inconsistency in ability descriptions? That would be helpfull for all of us.
Because if they intended for him to take the first action they could have worded it that way.
Thrawns description did not match the action that would happen. It was his turn and he is stated to seal that turn to another toon. They changed it to match the wording.
GMY they added specific wording to make it be described and function the way its described.
Both of these show the intent through the description.
If Han was meant to take the first action, it would have been worded that way, we can describe the intent all we want, but that is just how we would want it and not how it seems to be intended through the description.
They have always had wording to describe action vs turn, it's nothing new and has been used before. If he was \"going first\" due to the statment of \"at the start of the encounter\" we wouldn't need him to ignore taunts that were applied \"at the start of the encounter\" because he would be going first, but that's not how the game works. A turn is 100% TM, in every sense of the game and in every scenario. A bonus turn would be a turn not gained through natural TM gain. Unfortunately using the in game mechanics we have, there is no guarantee that goes first and there is no description to say he should. Would we like it changed, sure but it doesnt change those facts.","body@stringLength":"4806","rawBody":"
\"Waqui;c-1648175\" wrote:
\"Kyno;c-1647628\" wrote:
\"SnakesOnAPlane;c-1647601\" wrote:
\"Kyno;c-1647578\" wrote: Correct he doesnt shoot first, but he does get his bonus turn, as described by his ability.
The ability name says “Shoots first” and it says “...bonus turn at the start...”. The name and the “at the start” implies he’s first. In this case he doesn’t shoot first nor when he goes is it “at the start”. One can argue against WAI quite easily in this case.
He gets the bonus turn at the beginning of the match. A turn in this game is denoted by 100% TM. The name is a title and not a description of how the ability will work, that's what the description is for.
As always when multiple toons have 100% TM, there is no guarantee who will go first, although I suspect when event toons have this coded they will go before our side, but still in an order determined by RNG.
The wording always was and still is ambiguous. The text says Han 'takes a bonus turn'. This wording implies that he actually also makes his move. The actual implementation may be WAI (and it works well - no protests there), but it does not comply with the wording in the ability description and it never did.
In the case of Zaul lead, the wording is unambiguous. The text states that certain characters 'gain 20% Turn Meter' at the start of each encounter. That's a precise wording.
Similarly, the wording of the description of GMY's Masterstroke is, that he 'gains an immediate bonus turn'. Does this mean that he immediately gains 100% turn meter? What would be the difference of several other characters that gain 100% turn meter (B2, JKA, Biggs, etc.)? If yes, why isn't it simply worded like those characters - that GMY gains 100% TM? Or does it mean that GMY immediately makes his move with no other characters able to move before that immediate bonus turn? In that case: why so similar wordings for two so different behaviours (Han 'takes a bonus turn', GMY 'gains an immediate turn')? And Thrawn's grand Admirel's Command still only states, that it's a Turn Meter swap. It doesn't state, that the target immediately takes a turn.
Why all those confusing wordings? Why not be consistent and use the same wording for the same behaviour and use a clearly distinct wording for different behaviour?
CG really should change the text of Han's 'Shoot first' ability to make it clear, that he gains 100% Turn Meter instead of the ambiguous 'takes a bonus turn'.
Yes, Kyno, I've read your comments about this in previous discussions as well. 'Taking a turn' is defined by CG as receiving 100% turn meter. I know. However, it doesn't change the fact, that the ability description doesn't state that clearly. Changing the text would take a couple of minutes, with a few more minutes added for planning, testing and documentation - but it would save a lot of confusion for players.
Instead of repeating your comments, that Han is intended to simply receive 100% TM (which most players already know) why not move to the next step in the discussion and comment on the ambiguous wording of the ability description and the general inconsistency in ability descriptions? That would be helpfull for all of us.
Because if they intended for him to take the first action they could have worded it that way.
Thrawns description did not match the action that would happen. It was his turn and he is stated to seal that turn to another toon. They changed it to match the wording.
GMY they added specific wording to make it be described and function the way its described.
Both of these show the intent through the description.
If Han was meant to take the first action, it would have been worded that way, we can describe the intent all we want, but that is just how we would want it and not how it seems to be intended through the description.
They have always had wording to describe action vs turn, it's nothing new and has been used before. If he was \"going first\" due to the statment of \"at the start of the encounter\" we wouldn't need him to ignore taunts that were applied \"at the start of the encounter\" because he would be going first, but that's not how the game works. A turn is 100% TM, in every sense of the game and in every scenario. A bonus turn would be a turn not gained through natural TM gain. Unfortunately using the in game mechanics we have, there is no guarantee that goes first and there is no description to say he should. Would we like it changed, sure but it doesnt change those 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