Smuggler’s Run: Han doesn’t shoot first! Say what?!

"Trias;c-1648120" wrote:
Let me make this simple: it is possible that multiple toons are given a bonus turn at the start of the encounter. The most obvious example is if both sides have have a Han, but certain event toons are given the same mechanic (this is a bit lame I agree). If multiple toons have bonus turns they have to take them in some order (coinflip in this game) because this is a turn based game. In particular, it is possible that a toon with "a bonus turn at the start of the encounter" is killed by another toon with "a bonus turn at the start of the encounter" before he gets that to take that bonus turn.

Is this really so hard for people to understand?

"Kyno;c-1647628" wrote:

"SnakesOnAPlane;c-1647601" wrote:

"Kyno;c-1647578" wrote:
Correct he doesnt shoot first, but he does get his bonus turn, as described by his ability.

The ability name says “Shoots first” and it says “...bonus turn at the start...”. The name and the “at the start” implies he’s first. In this case he doesn’t shoot first nor when he goes is it “at the start”. One can argue against WAI quite easily in this case.

He gets the bonus turn at the beginning of the match. A turn in this game is denoted by 100% TM. The name is a title and not a description of how the ability will work, that's what the description is for.

As always when multiple toons have 100% TM, there is no guarantee who will go first, although I suspect when event toons have this coded they will go before our side, but still in an order determined by RNG.

The wording always was and still is ambiguous. The text says Han 'takes a bonus turn'. This wording implies that he actually also makes his move. The actual implementation may be WAI (and it works well - no protests there), but it does not comply with the wording in the ability description and it never did.

In the case of Zaul lead, the wording is unambiguous. The text states that certain characters 'gain 20% Turn Meter' at the start of each encounter. That's a precise wording.

Similarly, the wording of the description of GMY's Masterstroke is, that he 'gains an immediate bonus turn'. Does this mean that he immediately gains 100% turn meter? What would be the difference of several other characters that gain 100% turn meter (B2, JKA, Biggs, etc.)? If yes, why isn't it simply worded like those characters - that GMY gains 100% TM? Or does it mean that GMY immediately makes his move with no other characters able to move before that immediate bonus turn? In that case: why so similar wordings for two so different behaviours (Han 'takes a bonus turn', GMY 'gains an immediate turn')? And Thrawn's grand Admirel's Command still only states, that it's a Turn Meter swap. It doesn't state, that the target immediately takes a turn.

Why all those confusing wordings? Why not be consistent and use the same wording for the same behaviour and use a clearly distinct wording for different behaviour?

CG really should change the text of Han's 'Shoot first' ability to make it clear, that he gains 100% Turn Meter instead of the ambiguous 'takes a bonus turn'.

Yes, Kyno, I've read your comments about this in previous discussions as well. 'Taking a turn' is defined by CG as receiving 100% turn meter. I know. However, it doesn't change the fact, that the ability description doesn't state that clearly. Changing the text would take a couple of minutes, with a few more minutes added for planning, testing and documentation - but it would save a lot of confusion for players.

Instead of repeating your comments, that Han is intended to simply receive 100% TM (which most players already know) why not move to the next step in the discussion and comment on the ambiguous wording of the ability description and the general inconsistency in ability descriptions? That would be helpfull for all of us.

"BubbaFett;c-1647993" wrote:
Bottom line, han should shoot first unless he is going against another han, period, full stop.

Either this or the ability description should be worded differently to make it clear, that Han receives 100% Turn Meter. Since the behaviour and implementation is as intended by CG, it's the wording that should be changed - not the behaviour.

"Trias;c-1648120" wrote:
Let me make this simple: it is possible that multiple toons are given a bonus turn at the start of the encounter. The most obvious example is if both sides have have a Han, but certain event toons are given the same mechanic (this is a bit lame I agree). If multiple toons have bonus turns they have to take them in some order (coinflip in this game) because this is a turn based game. In particular, it is possible that a toon with "a bonus turn at the start of the encounter" is killed by another toon with "a bonus turn at the start of the encounter" before he gets that to take that bonus turn.

True. But how could it be made easier to grasp? My suggestion:
Since this is different to the gain-100%-TM-mechanics maybe it would help to introduce a blue 'Shoots First' effect indicator just like 'Prepared' or 'Contract'. That way it's clear if CG decides to mess with it during certain events. Players would be accustomed to only see their (and the opponent's) Raid Han starting with the blue indicator in normal gameplay. If players enter an event and all event toons start popping up 'Shoots first' flags immidiately, it would be clear that your Raid Han's first shot will be subject to heavy RNG. It would even be possible to show how many additional turns at the start have been programmed into event toons. The 'Shoots first' flag just needed to show the numbers like stackable buffs/debuffs.
That way, CG wouldn't need to change anything specific on the Raid Han character or the event toons yet it would be crystal clear what's going on.

"Waqui;c-1648175" wrote:

"Kyno;c-1647628" wrote:

"SnakesOnAPlane;c-1647601" wrote:

"Kyno;c-1647578" wrote:
Correct he doesnt shoot first, but he does get his bonus turn, as described by his ability.

The ability name says “Shoots first” and it says “...bonus turn at the start...”. The name and the “at the start” implies he’s first. In this case he doesn’t shoot first nor when he goes is it “at the start”. One can argue against WAI quite easily in this case.

He gets the bonus turn at the beginning of the match. A turn in this game is denoted by 100% TM. The name is a title and not a description of how the ability will work, that's what the description is for.

As always when multiple toons have 100% TM, there is no guarantee who will go first, although I suspect when event toons have this coded they will go before our side, but still in an order determined by RNG.

The wording always was and still is ambiguous. The text says Han 'takes a bonus turn'. This wording implies that he actually also makes his move. The actual implementation may be WAI (and it works well - no protests there), but it does not comply with the wording in the ability description and it never did.

In the case of Zaul lead, the wording is unambiguous. The text states that certain characters 'gain 20% Turn Meter' at the start of each encounter. That's a precise wording.

Similarly, the wording of the description of GMY's Masterstroke is, that he 'gains an immediate bonus turn'. Does this mean that he immediately gains 100% turn meter? What would be the difference of several other characters that gain 100% turn meter (B2, JKA, Biggs, etc.)? If yes, why isn't it simply worded like those characters - that GMY gains 100% TM? Or does it mean that GMY immediately makes his move with no other characters able to move before that immediate bonus turn? In that case: why so similar wordings for two so different behaviours (Han 'takes a bonus turn', GMY 'gains an immediate turn')? And Thrawn's grand Admirel's Command still only states, that it's a Turn Meter swap. It doesn't state, that the target immediately takes a turn.

Why all those confusing wordings? Why not be consistent and use the same wording for the same behaviour and use a clearly distinct wording for different behaviour?

CG really should change the text of Han's 'Shoot first' ability to make it clear, that he gains 100% Turn Meter instead of the ambiguous 'takes a bonus turn'.

Yes, Kyno, I've read your comments about this in previous discussions as well. 'Taking a turn' is defined by CG as receiving 100% turn meter. I know. However, it doesn't change the fact, that the ability description doesn't state that clearly. Changing the text would take a couple of minutes, with a few more minutes added for planning, testing and documentation - but it would save a lot of confusion for players.

Instead of repeating your comments, that Han is intended to simply receive 100% TM (which most players already know) why not move to the next step in the discussion and comment on the ambiguous wording of the ability description and the general inconsistency in ability descriptions? That would be helpfull for all of us.

Because if they intended for him to take the first action they could have worded it that way.

Thrawns description did not match the action that would happen. It was his turn and he is stated to seal that turn to another toon. They changed it to match the wording.

GMY they added specific wording to make it be described and function the way its described.

Both of these show the intent through the description.

If Han was meant to take the first action, it would have been worded that way, we can describe the intent all we want, but that is just how we would want it and not how it seems to be intended through the description.

They have always had wording to describe action vs turn, it's nothing new and has been used before. If he was "going first" due to the statment of "at the start of the encounter" we wouldn't need him to ignore taunts that were applied "at the start of the encounter" because he would be going first, but that's not how the game works. A turn is 100% TM, in every sense of the game and in every scenario. A bonus turn would be a turn not gained through natural TM gain. Unfortunately using the in game mechanics we have, there is no guarantee that goes first and there is no description to say he should. Would we like it changed, sure but it doesnt change those facts.

He gets a bonus turn at the start of the encounter, not Before it. So every other character that has 100% TM at the start of the encounter is in the same situation and every other effect that happens at the start of the encounter also takes place. It matches the description exactly.
And as for people wanting to change the ability to guarantee only Hans going first in all situations, it's just unnecessary (and it's not like Han needs a buff really, he's already one of the most versatile characters and viable in all areas of the game... GMY was changed because it was part of his rework that actually made him viable, and Thrawn's TM Swap is both a different mechanic and didn't match the description until they fixed it)

"Kyno;c-1648075" wrote:

"Darknesswon;c-1648071" wrote:
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.

100% agree.

it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.

He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,

"Darknesswon;c-1648071" wrote:
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.

Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger

So CG's official position is that this Han is actually the George Lucas re-edited and updated version whereas, Han Shoots first, except before Greedo, Traya, anyone else as so deemed by the AI? lol

"Lightsabermon;c-1648326" wrote:

"Kyno;c-1648075" wrote:

"Darknesswon;c-1648071" wrote:
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.

100% agree.

it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.

He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,

"Darknesswon;c-1648071" wrote:
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.

Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger

Multiple things happen at the start of the encounter, where is it stated that Han is the first to go at the start of the encounter. It's not stated that way, which is why I am just saying I think its WAD. I would love for it to be different and only coin toss with another Han, but they would have to explain the intent in some way different than the current description.

Now I cant get it out of my head, he turns around in the opening scene for the Sith raid, and takes an aggressive bite of a hamburger, throws it down and points his saber at you.

"Kyno;c-1648399" wrote:

"Lightsabermon;c-1648326" wrote:

"Kyno;c-1648075" wrote:

"Darknesswon;c-1648071" wrote:
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.

100% agree.

it doesnt' state he gets the first action. it only states he gets a bonus turn, which is 100% TM. they should word it differently if they have the intent of making him take the first action. much like how they changed GMY description.

He gets a bonus turn at the START. Not the after everyone else goes. Also,

"Darknesswon;c-1648071" wrote:
And yet thrawn worked incorrectly for a very long time. They state" at the start of the encounter", im sorry if that doesnt mean go first , then it is misleading, since the encounter already started ie enemy going first , thats pretty much telling you when it should occur. Imo
I love this game so its not like its a make or break issue , but i would not mind some clarity from cg on this.

Is the start of the encounter the 4th turn?
Finally, i want to see nihileus eating a cheeseburger

Multiple things happen at the start of the encounter, where is it stated that Han is the first to go at the start of the encounter. It's not stated that way, which is why I am just saying I think its WAD. I would love for it to be different and only coin toss with another Han, but they would have to explain the intent in some way different than the current description.

Now I cant get it out of my head, he turns around in the opening scene for the Sith raid, and takes an aggressive bite of a hamburger, throws it down and points his saber at you.

I think they need to address this either way. Even if it is just to change the description. If the bonus turn is just 100% tm they should just change it to say that.