Forum Discussion

elainemathers's avatar
3 years ago

On lgbt+ inclusivity

Hello,

Just to get this straight, (or well, not straight), I am elated at the lgbt+ inclusivity in Sims, I have always loved the freedom and I love the sandbox nature of it.

My issue lies with wording choices that seem to create a lot of dissonance when playing characters who are non-binary, and I have taken the time to lay it down in a numbered list, subdivided into three categories; "what is the issue", "why do I see it as an issue" and "what would I propose as a change"

  1. Familial relations
    • What is the issue? When assigning the relation to another sim, the choices are gendered; husband/wife, sister/brother, father/mother, depending on the chosen (I assume chromosomal?) sex of the character.
    • Why do I see it as an issue? Imagine you're curious about your gender or maybe you already identify as non-binary, and use the sims as a way to explore it. Then imagine everyone still assigns your birth-gender to familial relations? This can be quite uncomfortable, or may even solidify ideas that gender is just a 'thing' that doesn't really affect how the people around that person, relates to them. They're still someone's sister. Doesn't seem very inclusive, honestly.
    • What would I propose as a change? In the same way that choosing a woman makes the familial relations 'wife', 'sister', 'daughter' etc., I propose that any 'They/Them' or 'Choose other pronouns' options picked, makes familial relations 'Spouse', 'Sibling', 'Child', 'Parent' etc.
  2. They/them pronouns leading to grammar mistakes
    • What is the issue? When playing as a non-binary they/them character, the only change to the code that seems to have been made is inserting "they" instead of "she/he" in sentences in the notifications. Therefore sentences like "She starts her new job..." becomes "They starts their new job", instead of the grammatically correct "They start their new job tomorrow"
    • Why do I see it as an issue? It's just a matter of professionalism honestly. Sure it does create some dissonance but in general my opinion is, that if you want to include non-binary pronouns, you have to commit to it. It feels a little half-assed, making it seem disingenuous, which I'm certain is not the intention, or they wouldn't have added the pronouns in the first place, right?
    • What would I propose as a change? Just change the code to make verbs gender-specific, the same way it's dependent on singular/plural.
  3. Romantic and Woohoo preferences
    • What is the issue? Despite having more than two genders, the romantic- and woohoo preferences do not take this into account in any way, making it come off as gender-essentialist. There is only the option for 'Men' and 'Women'.
    • Why is this an issue? Your romantic and woohoo preferences are not necessarily 'one sex' or 'two sexes'. It can also be 'women and non-binary people' or 'men and women and non-binary people' or 'none'. It basically just once again makes the inclusion of pronouns come off as a cheap addition without thought to how it would interact with other aspects of the game, and once again it seems we have landed in the area of (hopefully accidental) gender essentialism.
    • What change do I propose? I propose changing the options of romantic and woohoo interests to 'Men' 'women' 'non-binary people' and 'none' (asexual and aromantic people should in my opinion also have a button, and not just lack of checkmarks). There can be an issue here with people who have woohoo interest with non-binary people whose genitals match a certain sex, but not the other, however I am sure that this could be handled gracefully within the development team, i.e. with consultation from lgbt+ organizations like GLAAD.
  4. Feminine/masculine clothing choices
    • What is the issue? When choosing preferred expressive style, clothes are still binarily gendered, with clothes being either explicitly feminine or explicitly masculine.
    • Why do I see it as an issue? From a gameplay perspective it's just a hassle if you want to play a character who has interest in both feminine and masculine expressions, to constantly have to deselect gender. Also unisex clothing exists in the real world and has done for ages. Why not include that in game?
    • What would I propose as a change? Firstly, the clothes that currently exist in both feminine and masculine categories, put that into a new category, and name it something like "unisims" or whatever, I don't know. This is especially for toddlers and children where basically the majority of clothing that's already widely considered unisex exists in both categories. Secondly, instead of style selection being 'feminine' or 'masculine' I propose two options.
      • First option (the more elaborate), make a new button names style. In here, you can choose what default settings you want to see for clothing options, both in terms of 'Feminine', 'Masculine', 'Unisims' and 'All', but also in terms of like 'Boho', 'Preppish' etc. It's just an annoying task overall having to keep filtering those things if you have a character you just know is a hipster through and through.
      • Second option (less elaborate), just add 'Both' as an option under style selection, if you don't want to put unisex clothes as a category? or 'All' if you do choose to add unisex clothing as a kind of expression of gender in game.

These four issues are all issues that are purely text-based and would not require (as far as I know) any major overhaul in the script of the game. If there was ever to be some proper patching, I do pray to the simgods that someone looks at the texturing of some of the clothes when applied to bodies that aren't the same gender. Things like layered shirts from the masculine section often look completely ridiculous on a person with a feminine body.

And as a final aside, I've never posted anything for forums before, despite having played sims since I was a wee thing, back in the original The Sims (tm) days. I state this only to make sure it's known that this is not something I am just writing here fore fun. This is something I hope will be read and listened to, because I truly care about this game being as inclusive as it seems to strive to be, and I just keep stumbling over this hurdle.

6 Replies

  • EA_Cade's avatar
    EA_Cade
    Icon for Community Manager rankCommunity Manager
    3 years ago

    Heya, 

    First and foremost, I wish all the feedback we received was as detailed and thought out as yours is! Very well constructed post and illustrates your issues perfectly, so thank you for that.

    Now, to address what I can at the moment:

    Familial relations tagging as it related to non-binary Sims is something that the team is aware of and exploring options with at the moment. There isn't a simple fix for this one and it will require a fair bit of development time to fully explore all of our options.

    They/Them pronouns not applying correctly is something we are actively gathering feedback on in several threads at the moment. Also, this was a first step of sorts before adding in more verbose descriptors: 

    For this first iteration of the feature we focused on pronouns. While pronouns are a very important piece when it comes to greater inclusivity for The Sims 4, we understand that customizable pronouns will not make the game 100-percent gender neutral. You will still see instances of gendered language in the game such as mother, father, policeman, policewoman, etc.

    As for your feedback on clothing and woohoo preferences, this post has been shared directly with the Sims team so they can best see your feedback without me snipping around it for a "Cliffs Notes" version. 

    Again, thank you so much for your very detailed feedback, it's players like you that truly Make The Sims!

  • @elainemathers , on the matter of feminine/masculine clothing options - there is a filter option built into the game where you can select the kind of clothing you want to choose from.

  • @taffster74 Oh I’m aware of the filter, as mentioned in the post itself. However to select filters you have to do it for every clothing category which is quite annoying in cases where you know you want to go for a specific look, which is why I suggested a style button that allows filtering for all categories at once. 

  • @EA_Cade Thank you so much for the answer, I’m extremely grateful, and than you for explaining also the technical side of the issues. It makes it a lot easier to understand and work with.

    I really hope these suggestions can serve to help the development of the game.

  • @elainemathers Appreciate finding this thread. Rage uninstalled all sims games with the orientation update as I didn't want the possibility of sims having more ways to misgender my sim selves. Was hoping it would be fixed already. I miss when all the sims were just pan.
  • elainemathers's avatar
    elainemathers
    3 years ago

    @LaughieSaphie I'm so sorry you had that experience, it's truly why I feel this issue is so pressing. Because to me, when implementing something like this, it's vital that it's done properly from the start. Otherwise you get situations like yours, where the misgendering triggers in a way that makes it impossible to continue playing. To me, there's a difference between wanting to experiment with implementing new items, and implementing diversity measurements. Imagine implementing the option to have a wheelchair-bound character, and then not adding options for stair-lifts or ramps, making it just as annoying and difficult to play someone with a handicap as it is to be handicapped in real life. This is especially a problem because this game is supposed to be a social fantasy sandbox game where you get to play as anyone you want, without facing the prejudice you would in real life. Yet these implementations does create an implicit prejudice by not acknowledging the role you're trying to play.