Re: I Really think the arks needed to bring more people...here's why...

Putting Your own by a wall because they do not trust politics such as Tann? Making them suffer and either die or be forced to attack You just because You are temporarily on the stronger side?

Seriously, I see no good reason NOT to help them. It is a win-win situation. Actually when there is then a question in game "should we help them with Ketts or other dangers if need be?" my answer is always "yes, definitely".  People are social animals, they need numbers to succeed. There are many reasons why people have issues with cooperating, but if we are not setting a good exemple ourselves, and are eager to scr** others for petty reasons...

...well, selfish people usually die alone.   :-(

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

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@pyrion wrote:

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

I think there are a couple threads about this. Why there are any exiles left outside of Kadara Port that aren't lone hermits or homesteaders by the end of the game is a mystery - and the sovereign nation of Advent must consist of all the people standing around in that encounter... a la Republic of Dave

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Which is why I went for the water rather than the natural gas. If the "sovereign nation" of Advent wants nothing to do with the Initiative and wants to go it alone, why should I care about their well-being? Grab the water for Prodromos and let the idiot sovereign citizen nutters fend for themselves like they wanted to. Screw 'em.

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my thoughts too. if they wanted to go independent, they should have brought enough supplies and equipment to sustain them. damn fools...

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I chose the water because why would I want to destroy the planet I just fixed? Even of the destruction is slow and not within Ryders lifetime it seems counter productive to everything we have tried to accomplish.

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@Nykara360 wrote:

I chose the water because why would I want to destroy the planet I just fixed? Even of the destruction is slow and not within Ryders lifetime it seems counter productive to everything we have tried to accomplish

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this too. help idiots and help to destroy the planet you're trying to save... because Eos is still delicate at this point. any damage could kill the ecosystem, and even if it doesn't, it could still cripple colonization and set back the effort to settle there by stalling planet wide improvements.

Seriously people? And how do You think Initiative is going to obtain fuel or energy? Do You really believe there will be no animals or farms, and that everyone in Initiative is a vegetarian? Do You believe Initiative is not going to use any synthetic materials?

We are talking about balanced development, and actually gas is much safer to environment than coal - especially with modern processing.

It would be nice if people could process energy directly from sun like Angara - but they do not.

Eventually... Sure, rem-tech is able to remove radioactivity from planet in a matter of days, but just a small quantity of CO2 is going to be a problem... Like... Really???

You can bet that when Voeld starts to thaw ice, there will be MUCH more CO2 released into Voeld atmosphere than this gas can ever bring to Eos...   :-/

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@Kondaru wrote:

Seriously people? And how do You think Initiative is going to obtain fuel or energy? Do You really believe there will be no animals or farms, and that everyone in Initiative is a vegetarian? Do You believe Initiative is not going to use any synthetic materials?

We are talking about balanced development, and actually gas is much safer to environment than coal - especially with modern processing.

It would be nice if people could process energy directly from sun like Angara - but they do not.

Eventually... Sure, rem-tech is able to remove radioactivity from planet in a matter of days, but just a small quantity of CO2 is going to be a problem... Like... Really???

You can bet that when Voeld starts to thaw ice, there will be MUCH more CO2 released into Voeld atmosphere than this gas can ever bring to Eos...   :-/

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But the sovereign nation is like a half dozen people and all of Elaaden has a single limited source of water. Maslow's hierarchy wins every time. 😃

i though it was the seismic activity form the architect that shifted the water? 

As far as I understand the story, Advent enclave had a lot of water - it was literally founded on a spring or something - but then Initiative asked Ryder to use seismic hammers to employ seismic activity that Architect was causing to redirect water to Prodromos. In the result Advent started to lose water, and they went to investigate. The last seismic hammer can be used either to steal the rest of their water for the Initiative; or to open gas deposit, that Advent is willing to mine for the Initiative. Advent would still like to be paid for their work with *mining*, but they would be providing resulting gas to Initiative, which clearly implies that it would be of great use to Prodromos. An alternative is to make it a bit easier for Prodromos to have some irrigation with the stolen water, at the cost of hundreds of dead Advent citizens - and no gas for Initiative.

So no, it was not architect itself, it was not that Advent was stupid - Initiative is asking Ryder to steal water from their neighbors, and to sentence them to death in the result RATHER THAN to have some good neighbors that are willing to work for Initiative as gas miners.

Two additional points:

- Advent made it very clear that they are not against the Initiative, but that they simply do not trust Tann, and just decided to go independent. They are happy to see Pathfinder, to cooperate with Prodromos, and generally to share land, and to "invite others to their capitol".

- Prodromos has enough water to sustain all their needs; they wish for water so they can grow more plants. And taking into account that Initiative has access to huge resources of water on Veold, it is not even realistic "need" - it is just a convenience.

So no, I do not believe that Advent is stupid, or that they deserve to die because of Initiative's greed. I believe that they can occur to be good neighbors, and that it is worthwhile to cooperate with them as much as Initiative can. Anything else means that Ryder turns into something like Sloane or those dead Angarans from Kurinth's Valley on Kadara.

@Kondaru

i don't recall any of that being stated anywhere. are you sure you're not just making assumptions that back up your point of view?

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besides the advent not being against initiative part. i do remember that.

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iirc, at prodromos they say that there's massive seismic activity and it's altered the underground landscape. 

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@Kondaru wrote:

As far as I understand the story, Advent enclave had a lot of water - it was literally founded on a spring or something - but then Initiative asked Ryder to use seismic hammers to employ seismic activity that Architect was causing to redirect water to Prodromos. In the result Advent started to lose water, and they went to investigate. The last seismic hammer can be used either to steal the rest of their water for the Initiative; or to open gas deposit, that Advent is willing to mine for the Initiative. Advent would still like to be paid for their work with *mining*, but they would be providing resulting gas to Initiative, which clearly implies that it would be of great use to Prodromos. An alternative is to make it a bit easier for Prodromos to have some irrigation with the stolen water, at the cost of hundreds of dead Advent citizens - and no gas for Initiative.

So no, it was not architect itself, it was not that Advent was stupid - Initiative is asking Ryder to steal water from their neighbors, and to sentence them to death in the result RATHER THAN to have some good neighbors that are willing to work for Initiative as gas miners.

Two additional points:

- Advent made it very clear that they are not against the Initiative, but that they simply do not trust Tann, and just decided to go independent. They are happy to see Pathfinder, to cooperate with Prodromos, and generally to share land, and to "invite others to their capitol".

- Prodromos has enough water to sustain all their needs; they wish for water so they can grow more plants. And taking into account that Initiative has access to huge resources of water on Veold, it is not even realistic "need" - it is just a convenience.

So no, I do not believe that Advent is stupid, or that they deserve to die because of Initiative's greed. I believe that they can occur to be good neighbors, and that it is worthwhile to cooperate with them as much as Initiative can. Anything else means that Ryder turns into something like Sloane or those dead Angarans from Kurinth's Valley on Kadara.

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I'm sure they're going to include some future advantage (or malus) based on your decision - I'm not sure if you'll be able to avoid any future conflict entirely. It feels like they included them as an independent group on EOS just to be able to do that.

Dave was welcoming at first too IIRC, as long as I recognized him and slipped him a few caps for asylum paperwork.

@CasperTheLich

Yes, I am quite sure. You can easily check for Yourself - there are dozens of gameplays on Youtube, just check for "Andromeda Making an impression", e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eeBF2LbERk

Hainly Abrams: Eos has massive underground rivers we can't tap. But altering those tremors just right might crack the ground for irrigation.

Then in the place where Ryder is to use the last seismic hammer...

Advent Scout: We didn't come to Andromeda to fuel Director Tann's regime. In Advent, we're free citizens. (...) Ha, I should get you a passport for our capital. Maybe when the showers work again. Our water table dropped recently, like the rivers ground were running dry. We tracked the problem out here.

Ryder: There's been seismic activity. We're using that and a survey hammer to tap the rivers.

Scout: Oh, sh**. Advent needs that water supply to stay independent. Would you... consider a deal? Our survey showed a massive natural gas deposit nearby. Your hammer taps that instead, we mine the gas, and trade it to your outpost. Everyone wins. (...) Look, I can't argue with your guns. Just remember there's a lot of citizens downstream.

@Kondaru i'll check for myself as i don't recall the convo going like that. but if it's right. i'll have to concur. though i still think tapping the gas veins is still an environmental issue.

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you're right, i'm wrong. though you still have to choose between: advent/prodromos & the environment. i happen to think siding with prodromos is the right call in this situation. you don't. that's it.  

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

@Kondaru i'll check for myself as i don't recall the convo going like that. but if it's right. i'll have to concur. though i still think tapping the gas veins is still an environmental issue.

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you're right, i'm wrong. though you still have to choose between: advent/prodromos & the environment. i happen to think siding with prodromos is the right call in this situation. you don't. that's it.  

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A few things to keep in mind about the gas issue. One, most planets have a "carrying capacity", essentially what it can absorb and support. Even if we dump all of the Initiative on Eos that is only around 100k people. Add in the methane and you are still well below pollutant levels produced at any time in Earth's history. Even on pre-Columbian North America there was more people and methane production (considering that there were an estimated 60 million buffalo alone) than on Eos, granted that Eos probably does currently have less vegetation that North America at the time as well

Second, Eos does have incredible terraforming capabilities running, which should more than cover any emissions produced.

Third, we don't know exactly how planets work, so human produced greenhouse gasses may or may not override standard planetary cycles

Anyway, I decided to help out Advent, so I stay on good terms with both!🙂

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

@Kondaru i'll check for myself as i don't recall the convo going like that. but if it's right. i'll have to concur. though i still think tapping the gas veins is still an environmental issue.

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you're right, i'm wrong. though you still have to choose between: advent/prodromos & the environment. i happen to think siding with prodromos is the right call in this situation. you don't. that's it.  

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Yeah, I also chose for Prodromos, well actually for the planet. The whole point of the game is to make planets viable and a big part of that is reawakening the remnant vaults to make the planet better again. Environmental issues are the last thing I would want to stack on that, especially for people who signed up for the Initiative and took off when it got tough. Now they want to benefit from the Initiative?

Of course in the end it makes no difference in game but they did survive without that gas, so I didn't buy the urgency for them either.

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@EgoMania wrote:

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

@Kondaru i'll check for myself as i don't recall the convo going like that. but if it's right. i'll have to concur. though i still think tapping the gas veins is still an environmental issue.

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you're right, i'm wrong. though you still have to choose between: advent/prodromos & the environment. i happen to think siding with prodromos is the right call in this situation. you don't. that's it.  

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Yeah, I also chose for Prodromos, well actually for the planet. The whole point of the game is to make planets viable and a big part of that is reawakening the remnant vaults to make the planet better again. Environmental issues are the last thing I would want to stack on that, especially for people who signed up for the Initiative and took off when it got tough. Now they want to benefit from the Initiative?

Of course in the end it makes no difference in game but they did survive without that gas, so I didn't buy the urgency for them either.

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They wanted the underground water and were willing to give you the natural gas location. They did mention selling the water to Podromos later, but fie on that.

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

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@EgoMania wrote:

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

@Kondaru i'll check for myself as i don't recall the convo going like that. but if it's right. i'll have to concur. though i still think tapping the gas veins is still an environmental issue.

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you're right, i'm wrong. though you still have to choose between: advent/prodromos & the environment. i happen to think siding with prodromos is the right call in this situation. you don't. that's it.  

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Yeah, I also chose for Prodromos, well actually for the planet. The whole point of the game is to make planets viable and a big part of that is reawakening the remnant vaults to make the planet better again. Environmental issues are the last thing I would want to stack on that, especially for people who signed up for the Initiative and took off when it got tough. Now they want to benefit from the Initiative?

Of course in the end it makes no difference in game but they did survive without that gas, so I didn't buy the urgency for them either.

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They wanted the underground water and were willing to give you the natural gas location. They did mention selling the water to Podromos later, but fie on that.

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Well, regardless of the details, there was an environmental issue of some signficance to consider and I was not prepared to let that happen just so these runaways could benefit from it.

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@EgoMania wrote:

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

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@EgoMania wrote:

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

@Kondaru i'll check for myself as i don't recall the convo going like that. but if it's right. i'll have to concur. though i still think tapping the gas veins is still an environmental issue.

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you're right, i'm wrong. though you still have to choose between: advent/prodromos & the environment. i happen to think siding with prodromos is the right call in this situation. you don't. that's it.  

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Yeah, I also chose for Prodromos, well actually for the planet. The whole point of the game is to make planets viable and a big part of that is reawakening the remnant vaults to make the planet better again. Environmental issues are the last thing I would want to stack on that, especially for people who signed up for the Initiative and took off when it got tough. Now they want to benefit from the Initiative?

Of course in the end it makes no difference in game but they did survive without that gas, so I didn't buy the urgency for them either.

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They wanted the underground water and were willing to give you the natural gas location. They did mention selling the water to Podromos later, but fie on that.

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Well, regardless of the details, there was an environmental issue of some signficance to consider and I was not prepared to let that happen just so these runaways could benefit from it.

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Well, you just stole all their water. They now have to A) go belly up and surrender to Tann, or B) go take their water back. These guys seem the militantly independent types, so, congratulations, you just started a war. I see this as detrimental to the planet, especially since it sounds like Advent was doing ok before the vault got fixed and would therefor not suffer too much if they took out the towers and let the radiation come back. Don't know if they would go that far, but they could, or hit Prodromos hard, etc. Finally, if I am interpreting what the Advent guys are telling you correctly, they aren't actually exiles, but are a bunch of Nexus people who have left to form their own colony, like New Tuchanka, but may still be on the Nexus' books, like PeeBee or Clancy.

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@fudgietroll wrote:

Well, you just stole all their water. They now have to A) go belly up and surrender to Tann, or B) go take their water back. These guys seem the militantly independent types, so, congratulations, you just started a war. I see this as detrimental to the planet, especially since it sounds like Advent was doing ok before the vault got fixed and would therefor not suffer too much if they took out the towers and let the radiation come back. Don't know if they would go that far, but they could, or hit Prodromos hard, etc. Finally, if I am interpreting what the Advent guys are telling you correctly, they aren't actually exiles, but are a bunch of Nexus people who have left to form their own colony, like New Tuchanka, but may still be on the Nexus' books, like PeeBee or Clancy.

We didn't steal anything. Both groups were prospecting (and a lot closer to Podromos than Advent is). He pretty much admits that if you weren't heavily armed, they'd probably try to make a move on you and force you out and take the resource. A resource that may end being critical to your first colony's success.

You are under no obligation to make it so that they do not have to trade with Nexus.

So really, it becomes a matter of which is more important: Your colonists? Or Exiles that have already turned their back on you.

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@arthurh3535 wrote:

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@fudgietroll wrote:

Well, you just stole all their water. They now have to A) go belly up and surrender to Tann, or B) go take their water back. These guys seem the militantly independent types, so, congratulations, you just started a war. I see this as detrimental to the planet, especially since it sounds like Advent was doing ok before the vault got fixed and would therefor not suffer too much if they took out the towers and let the radiation come back. Don't know if they would go that far, but they could, or hit Prodromos hard, etc. Finally, if I am interpreting what the Advent guys are telling you correctly, they aren't actually exiles, but are a bunch of Nexus people who have left to form their own colony, like New Tuchanka, but may still be on the Nexus' books, like PeeBee or Clancy.

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We didn't steal anything. Both groups were prospecting (and a lot closer to Podromos than Advent is). He pretty much admits that if you weren't heavily armed, they'd probably try to make a move on you and force you out and take the resource. A resource that may end being critical to your first colony's success.

You are under no obligation to make it so that they do not have to trade with Nexus.

So really, it becomes a matter of which is more important: Your colonists? Or Exiles that have already turned their back on you.

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Advent didn't turn their backs on ME, just Tann/Initiative, which I can't blame them for really. I got a personal invite to go hang out some time. I would also like to point out that I don't get to choose between Advent and the Initiative, I get to choose between giving the Initiative ALL of the resources or helping two cities, preventing a war, and getting slapped with a Greenpeace citation. If I had the option to back Advent exclusively I might consider it. Anyway, Exiles got kicked out of the Initiative, while other groups, such as the Krogan, left voluntarily, and are treated differently by most (though not Tann). It seems that Advent was one of these groups.

We don't actually know how far away Advent is. Anyway, they had the water, we took the water they had, now they have no water. Sounds a lot like stealing, or claim-jumping if you prefer, which is generally considered a hanging offence. The fact that you have more firepower than their small scouting party doesn't mean that you have the right to steal their stuff, which they had been using and had (once again) gotten to first.

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

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@Nykara360 wrote:

I chose the water because why would I want to destroy the planet I just fixed? Even of the destruction is slow and not within Ryders lifetime it seems counter productive to everything we have tried to accomplish

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this too. help idiots and help to destroy the planet you're trying to save... because Eos is still delicate at this point. any damage could kill the ecosystem, and even if it doesn't, it could still cripple colonization and set back the effort to settle there by stalling planet wide improvements.

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They can't be that much of idiots if they could make a colony go where the Initiative failed twice (Admittedly, Kedara and New Tuchanka were also more or less successful as well, did all of the COMPETENT people wind up leaving the Nexus?). Plus, we only 100k people max to settle on at least 5 planets and the Nexus, so it doesn't matter if the terraforming slows down a bit because we don't need the whole planet anytime soon