Forum Discussion

Anonymous

9 years ago

Approved

Ability vs Ability

I figured it might be nice to list the abilities/variants that might need a slight tweak to balance it with it's opposite ability. Here's some examples:

Shuck Shot vs ZPG

Shuck Shot does 100 damage while ZPG does 250. Both take time to charge/load before firing and have a slow projectile speed. Does Shuck shot have a bigger splash? Larger projectile? I don't know only a dev can clarify that. Otherwise these two should have the same damage. Now Shuck Shot might've been invented as the opposite of Super Ultra Ball hence the damage. However Corn can't jump as high as Superbrainz and launch it down at targets. He has to shoot straight, much like the Foot Soldier, even then the Foot Soldier can get elevated or fire it from the air after he uses Rocket Jump.

So now let's consider all the explosive abilities that zombies have: ZPG, Super Ultra Ball, Imp punt.

Now plants: Shuck Shot and Chili Bomb. (You could maybe include the Chomper's new ability Chomp Cannon but that one isn't default and only does 100 damage.)

So 150 imp punt, 100 Super Ultra Ball, 250 for ZPG vs 100 Shuck Shot, 250 Chili Bomb and 100 Chomp Cannon. Now granted the Chilibomb has a big AOE but the imp punt also has an AOE, maybe not as large as Chilibomb but enough to be an effective grenade. Most plants don't go over 150hp anyway.

My conclusion.. Shuck shot needs a damage boost to at least 150 so plants can have explosion damage on par with Zombies. Preferably 250 so it can mimic the ZPG.

Artichoke/Garlic Drone vs Parrot

The parrot has faster projectiles making it easier to lead and shoot down your targets while it is harder to lead and shoot folks with the Artichoke/Garlic drones. The parrot seems to have a smaller hit box but I'm not entirely sure. I just can't hit the damn thing with any plant I pick yet with half the zombies I can easily nail the Artichoke/Garlic drones.

Shark Laser vs Any Cactus

Now I haven't unlocked all the Cactus variants but I have yet to find one that does as much damage as DeadBeard with a Shark laser. Now hear me out. I've taken him out on 3 matches and have have more than 50 vanquishes with a 25+ kill streak thanks to him. I do not even have him maxed out yet. I can not do this with the Cactus. Her projectiles are slower and the slow zoom in doesn't help. Comparing the numbers the shark laser does 32 per hit and 35 if I crit. If I'm shooting Citron and he throws up his shield my shot can do 16x3 (48) at times. This also happens to any armored weed I fire at as well. There isn't a single cactus I have that does 32 damage as base. My elemental cactuses actually do around 18 on crit shots. I just got the Jade Cactus yesterday and I was impressed with her being able to do 26-28 damage per shot and that her shots do explode upon contact. Then I tried DeadBeard next match and stop being impressed.

Husk Hop vs ImpKata

With ImpKata you can fire your weapon until near empty, use ImpKata and at the end of it receive a full loaded gun which you can empty into your enemies again. With Husk Hop if you are near empty and use HH you will not land with a full clip and will have to reload. Either HH should give me a full clip like ImpKata or the Imp should need to reload at the end of ImpKata. It's a small complaint but players have taken advantage of this.

Melee vs Melee

SuperBrainz and Chompers are melee classes. Or are suppose to be. Superbrainz is the only one who gets a beam to use. The beam is effective enough to take out plants at range thanks to his tanky body. Further more SuperBrainz has more HP AND is effective at taking out multiple plants at melee range. I don't know about you but I think Chompers are getting rather jealous at this point. They need a buff if we are going to leave SuperBrainz as is. A buff in all areas: HP, damage and CD reductions.

But wait Chompers can One-hit vanquish zombies! Surely that means something?

Yea it would if majority of zombies didn't have a means of escaping him (Scientist Teleport, All-Star Charge, Engineer Jackhammer, SuperBrainz's jump and hero kick, DeadBeard Barrel). So the only zombie that can't really escape Chomper is the Imp. But he gets a double jump+hover. So if he's lucky and quick he might be able to land on some high ground to save himself. How is this balanced again?

So how many plants can SuperBrainz's Twister take out? Sunflower and Cactus. The cactus is a 50/50 because I was able to put up a wallnut and mine behind it to save myself but that was only with the idiot Brainz who didn't see me do that. Also SuperBrainz can survive a potato mine since it only does 175 damage. Sunflower is wrecked, no chance of escape. Imp gets a chance to escape by jumping on something. Sunflower, nope. Now every other plant has an ability they can use to escape SuperBrainz but if they fail to use it then they are usually dead.

Thoughts? Was this a fair analyze? Was there anything I didn't consider? Any you have in mind that I might've missed?

17 Replies

Boolerex
9 years ago
First shuck shot can do up to 250 damage if both projectile do a direct hit (125 x 2), while foot soldier do 300 damage at direct hit. Technically yeah shuck shot could use a small damage buff at direct hit. Which could help him a bit dealing against stuff with damage resist or Z-mech. At any case,don't say that shuck shot only do 100 damage as it not true.

Additionally, super ultra ball do 120 damage at direct hit (super multi ball can do up to 60 damage for each ball for a total of 180 damage)

Parrot just need a health nerf and his airstrike to to have a slight delay to be more in line to garlic drone. it just seem to have a small hitbox because it so bulky

> There isn't a single cactus I have that does 32 damage as base

Petrified cactus can do 35 damage with his splash and even more at direct hit,although they're so different I could see why you didn't counted him. Outside of that there the last few shot of zen cactus. At any case...Well snarkbite need a nerf. Splash with good damage and a decent ammo count it a tad too much.

What is even the similarity between Impkata and husk hop expect that they're just abilities in which they shoot in some way. Husk hop is a strong damage tool which can also be used for movement,it incredibly strong by itself, bring of the few abilities that can melt a Z-mech. While Impkata,while it normally meant to be a cleaning tool,it just useful as a finisher when your ammo is empty as it rather weak and make you vulnerable,or just a (bad) panic button. Neither husk hop need a buff to reload his gun in top of it or impkata need a nerf in which he DON'T reload his gun.

For the comparison of chomper toward superbrainz...Well... They're fairly different outside of the fact that they're both melee char, superbrain is a brawler that want to be right at the plant face to punch them while chomper is more of the snarky type with spikeweed trap and burrow/backstab instant kill....But ideally, chomper need some sort of ranged attack like superbrain have to not be a sitting duck at longer range,especially against anything that camp somewhere he can't reach. Meanwhile turbo twister should have his speed nerfed so that sunflower (and to a lesser extant cactus) can attempt to at learn outrun him if she not slowed. But outside of that,I don't see what change it could have to make it less annoying expect a lower damage resistance.

Other comparison I can think of is:

Citron ball vs Sprint tackle (both do knockback, damage and push the user forward,but citron have less damage and a charge time)

Rooted/turret abilites (Sunbeam,Pea Gatling, Big Bolt Blaster and Cannon Rodeo but they're all very similar expect for cannon rodeo)

Peel shield vs Dummy tackle

EMPeach vs stun grenade

Rocket jump/leap vs husk hop

Healing tool of sunflower and scientist

Maybe I'll do a extended analysis of those if I have time
Anonymous
9 years ago
Approved
Overall, I would call this a good analysis, but it seems to be biased to the Plant team. I don't blame you, in the and, we are all buased to one team. I would also add some points.
The individual Shuck Shot only deals 150-100 points of damage, because there are two of them. My main problem is the poor accuracy over range, as they spred out too much and only one hits, even when you fire them ADS. I would suggest to gave them fly in a closer formation when ADS to ensure both hit.
As far as the Parrit goes, I don't find him too hard to shoot down. The main problem for me is his health/airstrike damage ratio, which is completly outclassing the Artichoke Drone. I feel that the projectiles fired from the drones all share the same speed. If I had to pick obe drone, it would be the Garlic because of the damage and airstrike.
In my eyes, Sharkbite is the only Deadbeard that can actually compete with a Cactus. His damage is high, but both the Petrified and Camo Cactus have higher default damage. The Camo Cactus also has a hitscan weapon like Sharkbite. If you want to beat Sharkbite as a Cactus, I suggest you to: Crank up your sensitivity and use the Future, Fire, Jade, Zen, Camo (altough you need the damage upgrade for that guy to become a monster) or default Cactus. Petrufied could work, but he requires very good timing and predicting skills.
Husk Hop vs. Impkata, 100% agreement.
No, Chomper does not need a buff. If you're smart enough to burrow at somebody from somewhere different then right in their face, they usually won't know your coming until it's to late.
And what is everybodys problem with the laser. And yes, the Chomper can bite multiple multiple players to death. You obky need to trap one in Spike Weed, bite the two others into hell and eat the last one (Goop helps s lot with this). Or just use the Fire or Power Chomper. The beam is no decent primary that can hold it's own. I can understand that it is annoying to fight an Electro Brainz sniping into crowds of players, but otherwise, the laser does low damage, makes you immoblie, can't be used while jumping and gives your position away.
Anonymous
9 years ago
Approved
Erm....I'm not biased. I literally don't care what side I'm on.
Anonymous
9 years ago
Approved
I didn't know ShuckShot did 125 damage direct or 250 if both lands or that Super Ultra Ball did 120 damage direct hit either. I couldn't find anything in the wiki and thus far playing I don't recall hitting anyone direct and seeing those numbers. So my apologizes for not finding that out sooner. Still considering that Shuck Shot spreads and Super Ultra ball is more damaging than I realize, I still think plants need a tweak.
You sure about the parrot? I swear it is really hard to hit. With Cactus, Citron, sunflower, etc. Then again no one really uses the Artichoke for plants. I should try it some more.
Petrified Cactus does do more damage but those egg shots are sooo slow. You have to be in close - mid-range to hurt someone with them. While the Shark laser can be used across the map practically.
I don't know how Husk hop is a damage dealing tool. That feels more like an escape skill+damage. I might need more practice but I have yet to take anyone out with it. Impkata on the other hand I've taken out plenty with a few games.
-----------
Citron ball vs Sprint tackle (both do knockback, damage and push the user forward,but citron have less damage and a charge time)
Rooted/turret abilites (Sunbeam,Pea Gatling, Big Bolt Blaster and Cannon Rodeo but they're all very similar expect for cannon rodeo)
Peel shield vs Dummy tackle
EMPeach vs stun grenade
Rocket jump/leap vs husk hop
Healing tool of sunflower and scientist
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Oh! I did forget those. Now I have to re-think my opinion about Husk Hop after considering Rocket jump.
Anonymous
9 years ago
Approved
Well, I don't find the Parrot too hard to kill, unless I'm a Peashooter. I've just had a match where I killed around 15-20 Parrots with the default Kernel Corn without any problem. The Husk Hop can definetivly be considered a damage tool. You only need to hover above somebody and you can kill anything, including Z-Mechs, Turbo Twisters and barrel hiding cowards in one Husk Hop. It needs some practice, but after 30-45 minutes, you get the hang of it. As far as the Tackle and Spin Dash go, the Spin Dash is suposed to be used in conjunction with the Hyper to chase down Imps and kill them. Now, this doesn't work anymore due to the HP buff on the Imp, but it was a viable strategy in the beta and before the Graveyard variety patch. The Sprint Tackle on the other hand has a much higher CD and is supposed to be used to clear out a Garden and to kill/damage the defenders so that the All-Star can finish the rest and start to take the point.
Anonymous
9 years ago
Approved
What about some Chompers have the same Yeti Ranged attack when pressing zoom button?
And just spraying normal breath while dont pressing anything??

This could be a good rework

Power, Fire, Toxic, Chomp Thing could have them.
Also could they add breathe to Yeti.

This would make them a decent frontline too, other than a sneaky assasin
Anonymous
9 years ago
Approved
@Redlove108 wrote:
Shark Laser vs Any Cactus
Now I haven't unlocked all the Cactus variants but I have yet to find one that does as much damage as DeadBeard with a Shark laser. Now hear me out. I've taken him out on 3 matches and have have more than 50 vanquishes with a 25+ kill streak thanks to him. I do not even have him maxed out yet. I can not do this with the Cactus. Her projectiles are slower and the slow zoom in doesn't help. Comparing the numbers the shark laser does 32 per hit and 35 if I crit. If I'm shooting Citron and he throws up his shield my shot can do 16x3 (48) at times. This also happens to any armored weed I fire at as well. There isn't a single cactus I have that does 32 damage as base. My elemental cactuses actually do around 18 on crit shots. I just got the Jade Cactus yesterday and I was impressed with her being able to do 26-28 damage per shot and that her shots do explode upon contact. Then I tried DeadBeard next match and stop being impressed.

Uum have you ever played the Zen-Cactus? The Jade-Cactus is my favourite so far. Good damange, high fire-rate and more health as shark bite. Last point is something you didn't consider in your comparison at all. you need at least 5 (slow reloading) hits to vanquish this one. Apart from that, the Cactus can use mines, a very underrated ability. I do a good amount of kills with them, something any pirate lacks. But I'm with you that pirates are easier to play and their drones seam to have a very strange hitbox.
Zaheen1337
9 years ago
@Redlove108
RPG does 300 but the highest health of any plant is 225. They wanted to make sure it could one shot anything.
Shuck Shot in that case should deal 1000 damage, so it can also one shot anything including a Mech. Instead they split the cobs into two making it even harder to get the max damage. I have been insta killed by this a few times, but only as a Scientist, and only because they were aiming for someone else and I got in the way.
If zombies can have an ability that one shots any plant, plants should get the same *. That's balance, but as always nobody will agree with that because zombie lovers don't want things to be fair.
Anonymous
9 years ago
Approved
Well, you can kill Mechs with only one Husk Hop or Corn Strike. But wait, thats only what scrubish Zombie lovers say.
Anonymous
9 years ago
Approved
lol and let's give zombies an ability that can turn plants into sheep! Cause that's balance!