Re: Balance: Both teams

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@Zaheen1337 wrote:

@JarlAdalbert

Going to edit my post, you're absolutely right.

And going to take it easy on the forums now, tired of saying the same thing over and over again, would be nice to see all the bugs and glitches fixed and see how that plays out before giving proper balance changes. Chances are, there will be another set of bugs that come with whatever they do next.

By the way, my comment about more threads was sort of aimed at you. I mean you've made two similar ones, sort of...

http://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/Lets-talk-balance/m-p/5248109#U5248109

http://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/Leave-the-Chomper-alone/m-p/5246491#U5246491

But if you wanted to start fresh, then don't mind me.

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You hit the nail on the head when mentioning that there will just be more issues after the next patch. Which is why drastic changes should not be made all at once. Add a variant Sunflower wit ha shotgun ability would be a good trial and error review to see if it works. PopCap needs to make sure buffing a weaker team wont make them overpowered and have the circle of patch keep going. 

I made those threads because I honestly wanted to talk about the different versions of balance, because no offense but sometimes views get so narrow it clouds judgement. I also think Chomper is fine and if I am good at him now, buffing him will make people who love him gods. 

So lets try to keep balance changes minimal that we want without overloading popcap lol. 

I see alots of people suggesting shotgun for sunflower, but I'll make my state about it that it a no no for me, Sunflower primary weapon is actually nowhere near bad for fighting at close range right now. Giving her a shotgun would actually hurt her effectiveness at longer range more when anything, as she will be forced to aim for that which slow her quite a bit.

Of course,I don't mind a variant with that exact gimmick,but changing all sunflower to be a pseudo scientist is just bleh as well as being too much work to balance those anyway.

(Additionally,it good to have some good balance talk for once and not just insult being thrown everywhere,I'll read those more deeply in a bit and respond to those with more detail)

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@Boolerex wrote:

I see alots of people suggesting shotgun for sunflower, but I'll make my state about it that it a no no for me, Sunflower primary weapon is actually nowhere near bad for fighting at close range right now. Giving her a shotgun would actually hurt her effectiveness at longer range more when anything, as she will be forced to aim for that which slow her quite a bit.

Of course,I don't mind a variant with that exact gimmick,but changing all sunflower to be a pseudo scientist is just bleh as well as being too much work to balance those anyway.

(Additionally,it good to have some good balance talk for once and not just insult being thrown everywhere,I'll read those more deeply in a bit and respond to those with more detail)

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I like you boolerex lol. I try not to lean towards one team even though a lot was strengthen some plants and weaken some zombies. But overall, I want many peoples opinions and reasonable ones. I know many people want a class as a whole buffed and that is just so way too drastic a change.

@JarlAdalbert

Glad to respond. I suppose I'll clarify a few things and respond a little bit more.

QoL + Chomper: 

I've never consciously noticed the issue myself, but apparently the issue is that the camera goes in the wrong direction you want it to when you burrow. Making you waste valuable burrow time to adjust it.

I'm fine with the standard burrow time too, I only tacked that on to go along with the Burrow hiding your icon suggestion TBH. (AKA more time to set up an ambush on the icon reliant zombies)

That being said, I'd like to see sprint burrow get some love - maybe I'm crazy, but it feels shorter than it was in the first game. Used to run it on my Armor Chomper to compensate for his poor speed - and because nobody expects it. Buffing the Toxic Aura'd be nice as well for a few variants.

Citron:

I love playing Citron if I can - I like stomping people at close/mid range with Stock or screwing with people (especially barreled deadbeards or imps) using the Frost. I've always found it strange that the Frost Citron actually does more damage than stock (of course at the cost of a much shorter beam duration). 

Rose:

Yeah, it's painful for me to consider it too. I abhorred the Rose spam as much as anyone in her reign of terror, but at the very least she should get back to 125 hp in the next patch. 

Corn: 

I don't play corn a lot these days because usually there's like 3-4 others playing him. I only really play Mob Cob to look classier as I kill people. (It doesn't take much because my stock corn looks like a Banana Split thanks to the legendary hat) He feels weaker than stock because his penetrating shots never seem to work. I feel that fixing that might draw people away from the BBQ Corn - that or make the Mob Cob do slight splash damage on hits.

Scientist:

Oh the MB is exactly the same as he was in the last game. It's just that you see so much more of him (or the Zoologist) these days because Fire got nerfed. I just feel that slightly nerfing the MB's fire rate might let some of the other variants see some use. And yeah, it's easier to hit the point blank shots now thanks to the new engine. 

Deadbeard:

Flameface is FINE at range. His close range attacks however, are laughable because they barely do more upfront damage than the scoped ones and you waste a shot for a measly TWO extra damage. (no damage buff) To make it even more pathetic, there's no change in the burn damage either.

So yeah, either buff the close ranged damage, clip size, or make his shotty use one ammo per shot.

Yeah, the Detonate variants are a little clunky. (My hands hurt if I try and play one seriously for too long) They have amazing waveclear (useful in Ops) if you have time things correctly. Cannon's got it worse than Flameface in close range though.

Super Brainz:

That's a very interesting idea - but unfortunately, it might add clutter thanks to Toxic Brainz's bar unless it's integrated correctly. I'll expand on this in a manner that may accommodate the bar idea. (Warning, it's Crazy. And probably horribly unbalanced. Sounds kinda fun though.)

Give all the variants a light "legendary mode" (no damage/speed increase - save that for TB) charged by their fists, only letting them use the ranged beams while scoped, as well as having close ranged eye lasers replacing their fists in this state. The latter state drains the bar faster, but is potent against groups. It forces the Superheroes to get up close so you'll see less beam snipers.

@Boolerex

Need to ask, are you on the PC? Even IF some variants of Sunflower got a Shotgun, she would need a movement speed boost of 200%, or a warp like ability in order to pull it off. Or once again she is just going to be a sitting duck defensive character where the Scientist always gets the jump.

Things on a console are slightly different, by the time you've turned around you're dead. There's no way you can outgun a Scientist unless he's at range, and he's walking in a straight line towards you, which requires you to be trailing way behind your team mates like a lost little child looking for their parents. No use at all.

@JarlAdalbert

Damn, you're spamming out your own thread! 😉

Cactus, Rose and Sunflower should all get a Shotgun if you ask me.

• Cactus is too vulnerable against close players.
• Rose no longer has a reason to use her zoom, she's bad anyway.
• Sunflower has no CC, she should have an insta kill Shotgun so nobody goes near her.

@zaheen

I agree with your shotgun assessment in that it'd be rather pointless to give her one with her movement speed, and abilities. It's so effective with the scientist because he has 2 teleports to instantly close the gap on someone, and actually get behind them, plus he's insanely fast. The computer scientist is very fast with his speed upgrade. I hate the idea of giving anyone a shotgun actually. I hip fire with the sunflower quite a bit, and if replace it with a shotgun it'll make her more ineffective than anything else.  It's stupid. She doesn't have the means to be in the front of any battles. 

I think what they should really do. Seriously. Is replace the Dark Flower ability with the Bonk Choy! Like the picture EA_Andy put up. But when it punches someone it actually stuns them! Yes... So you sacrifice the heal pot for the Bonk Choy but stay close to it and it WILL protect you against close range types, and actually give you a fighting chance against the annoying close range guys like the Super Brainz, or the Scientist. It'd be such a great idea! Thanks EA_Andy for the inspiration!

@XMalakhX

http://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/Balancing-Team-Plants/m-p/5237154#U5237154

It's why I suggested to give her damage mitigation instead, so if anyone does get the jump on her she can survive long enough to put up a good fight. Replaces Sunbeam which is a lot of her firepower but if she needs to be offensive she's not gunna use it anyway. The numbers were just rough numbers to get the point across, I'd actually make it so she's fully shielded just like Lil Drakes Mech is.

Sunflower should be packing more damage up close, as realistically anyone who goes near the sun is doomed anyway, burnt alive. That was my reasoning for the insta kill shotgun. That would also allow her to revive and heal without being disturbed much. The shield would allow her to potentially close a gap with slightly increased movement speed and shotgun to finish them off, plants take the capture point and progress.

To everyone saying that Plants mechs would be a bad idea because it would be a copy of Imp (even though Mechs are the coolest thing in the game), I have a better(ish) idea.

Sunflower only "mechs" --> "Mechs" are now Sunflower Queens. :D

Also the Sunflower "mechs" would be strictly support and or defense, not offense like Imp's so in that sense would be different.

To everyone saying it would be a bad idea for Sunflower to have a Shotgun because of copy of Deadbeard or whoever else. Someone else had this idea which I'm in total favor of since it caters to all.

Sunflower zoom --> her normal "smg" primary

Sunflower un-zoom --> Shotgun.

Yeah it would be the same concept of Deadbeard, but her ranged is still way weaker then his and her shotgun (IMO) should be stronger then his.

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@XMalakhX wrote:

@zaheen

I agree with your shotgun assessment in that it'd be rather pointless to give her one with her movement speed, and abilities. It's so effective with the scientist because he has 2 teleports to instantly close the gap on someone, and actually get behind them, plus he's insanely fast. The computer scientist is very fast with his speed upgrade. I hate the idea of giving anyone a shotgun actually. I hip fire with the sunflower quite a bit, and if replace it with a shotgun it'll make her more ineffective than anything else.  It's stupid. She doesn't have the means to be in the front of any battles. 

I think what they should really do. Seriously. Is replace the Dark Flower ability with the Bonk Choy! Like the picture EA_Andy put up. But when it punches someone it actually stuns them! Yes... So you sacrifice the heal pot for the Bonk Choy but stay close to it and it WILL protect you against close range types, and actually give you a fighting chance against the annoying close range guys like the Super Brainz, or the Scientist. It'd be such a great idea! Thanks EA_Andy for the inspiration!

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Love the bonk Choy ability idea. Could be either one shot a or two people who get too close or can just stun them. Make this happen. 

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@Zenopo wrote:

To everyone saying that Plants mechs would be a bad idea because it would be a copy of Imp (even though Mechs are the coolest thing in the game), I have a better(ish) idea.

Sunflower only "mechs" --> "Mechs" are now Sunflower Queens. :D

Also the Sunflower "mechs" would be strictly support and or defense, not offense like Imp's so in that sense would be different.

To everyone saying it would be a bad idea for Sunflower to have a Shotgun because of copy of Deadbeard or whoever else. Someone else had this idea which I'm in total favor of since it caters to all.

Sunflower zoom --> her normal "smg" primary

Sunflower un-zoom --> Shotgun.

Yeah it would be the same concept of Deadbeard, but her ranged is still way weaker then his and her shotgun (IMO) should be stronger then his.

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As stated before, I think it is about keeping the teams unique and not make them too similar taking away from having a different experience each team. In a sense it would be different but in a wider view, pretty much the same thing. 

But it doesn't cater too all especially seeing as how myself and many others would heavily dislike this ability. She has been the same since GW1 and she was perfectly fine in that game. I saw a a Sunflower get every accolade in one match and have never seen anyone else get that since. Take note the game has been out for a month so it takes time to bend your strategy to the new characters. 

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@Zaheen1337 wrote:

@XMalakhX

http://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/Balancing-Team-Plants/m-p/5237154#U5237154

It's why I suggested to give her damage mitigation instead, so if anyone does get the jump on her she can survive long enough to put up a good fight. Replaces Sunbeam which is a lot of her firepower but if she needs to be offensive she's not gunna use it anyway. The numbers were just rough numbers to get the point across, I'd actually make it so she's fully shielded just like Lil Drakes Mech is.

Sunflower should be packing more damage up close, as realistically anyone who goes near the sun is doomed anyway, burnt alive. That was my reasoning for the insta kill shotgun. That would also allow her to revive and heal without being disturbed much. The shield would allow her to potentially close a gap with slightly increased movement speed and shotgun to finish them off, plants take the capture point and progress.

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But she is not the Sun in any sort of way. She is just a sunflower. If she were to ever get an insta kill shotgun, many people would leave as she would be the new Rose. 

@JarlAdalbert wrote:

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As stated before, I think it is about keeping the teams unique and not make them too similar taking away from having a different experience each team. In a sense it would be different but in a wider view, pretty much the same thing. 

But it doesn't cater too all especially seeing as how myself and many others would heavily dislike this ability. She has been the same since GW1 and she was perfectly fine in that game. I saw a a Sunflower get every accolade in one match and have never seen anyone else get that since. Take note the game has been out for a month so it takes time to bend your strategy to the new characters. 

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But what's more unique then "mechs"? No 2 mechs the Imp has plays the same...expect for maybe the Z7 and the Stock mech?

Plus if we are going to talk about "uniqueness" Sunbeam, Pea Gatling, Big Bolt Blaster and Cannon Rodeo, are all virtually the same ability.  Replacing the Sunbeam for a "mech" would just be "coping" 1 other skill in the game. So it would be much more unique in that regard. Especially if they go with her turning into a Sunflower Queen, since that would be non-mechanical which is unique to the Zombies.

I only say it caters to all because people who want the shotgun, gets it and people who don't want the shotgun, doesn't have to use it...I'm in favor of shotgun all all-round and ditch the "smg" altogether.

She was "decent" in GW1, before the changes to some characters, the new characters and new variants became a thing in GW2, while she was left un-touched. So now she's in the dirt, left behind by everyone else who is on another level.

Something as small as a immobile ability being similar is annoying yes and I am not a fan of big bolt blaster and they tried making cannon rodeo different. However, taking something like the mech and just tossing it into plants for the main reason of 'Well the zombies have it' is not bringing balance in my opinion. Especially given to the Sunflower. What I believe will happen is a new class in general will be given to both teams hence the open spot in the backyards. This new class could be similar to a mech or something even better. 

But what about the people who wish to keep their smg even though someone has gotten too close. Staying zoomed in would be a huge inconvenience.Ditching the SMG would then have you with a second scientist. Once again I think it is a matter of redirecting strategy.  She isn't meant to do much damage. Maybe I am biased because my wife is really good with Sunflower. I see her have no issues but she has always played them.

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@Zenopo wrote:

Sunflower zoom --> her normal "smg" primary

Sunflower un-zoom --> Shotgun.

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Really not in favour of that one. That means you can't strafe and shoot at range, which would be a major downside and simply get you killed more. Sunflowers need their mobility.

BTW Just finished yet another game as fire flower with vanquish master, heal master, revive master. Same as GW1 she can already be beastly in the right hands (i've done all boasts in one game, once I might add, with her)

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@Zaheen1337 wrote:

@Boolerex

Need to ask, are you on the PC? Even IF some variants of Sunflower got a Shotgun, she would need a movement speed boost of 200%, or a warp like ability in order to pull it off. Or once again she is just going to be a sitting duck defensive character where the Scientist always gets the jump.

Things on a console are slightly different, by the time you've turned around you're dead. There's no way you can outgun a Scientist unless he's at range, and he's walking in a straight line towards you, which requires you to be trailing way behind your team mates like a lost little child looking for their parents. No use at all.

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A movement speed boost of that caliber is just way too much lol.And you pretty much explained yourself why shotgun in sunflower isn't gonna work compared to scientist without radical change,dunnos why you keep pushing it when.

I don't understood that you wanted to saay in your second paragraph...Sunflower die to a scientist in close range unless said scientist is at very low health,that obvious. In longer range,sunflower do have the advantage here,even more if she set up sunbeam. But yeah,nothing prevent scientist to warp at close range.

And yes I'ma playing in PC.

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@JarlAdalbert wrote:

Something as small as a immobile ability being similar is annoying yes and I am not a fan of big bolt blaster and they tried making cannon rodeo different. However, taking something like the mech and just tossing it into plants for the main reason of 'Well the zombies have it' is not bringing balance in my opinion. Especially given to the Sunflower. What I believe will happen is a new class in general will be given to both teams hence the open spot in the backyards. This new class could be similar to a mech or something even better. 

But what about the people who wish to keep their smg even though someone has gotten too close. Staying zoomed in would be a huge inconvenience.Ditching the SMG would then have you with a second scientist. Once again I think it is a matter of redirecting strategy.  She isn't meant to do much damage. Maybe I am biased because my wife is really good with Sunflower. I see her have no issues but she has always played them.

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Well there's no other skill, atm, that is unique enough to give to the plants so there would be less "copycat" abilities. If someone can think of something to give to Sunflower (talking aboiut Sunflower a lot because she's at the bottom of the Plants barrel.) that isn't a "mech", or a shield, then I'm all ears.

....I don't see an issue with this. "Someone got to close, wish I had the SMG instead of a Shotgun." What?! That's like saying; "Someone is to far away from me, wish I had an SMG instead of a Sniper."...

If I am to come to a compromise with people wanted the smg that badly, then give the shotgun to the two new variants of the Sunflower. Here is why those 2 would be the best choices;

Vampire: Convert a portion of damage dealt as health, her smg does horrible damage, so you get barely any health back. (Also pretty sure the life leech doesn't trigger unless you are not under attack, which is stupid seeing as that when you WANT it to work.) With a shotgun, she would do considerable damage, making the health she gets back, better.

Stuffy: Killing Zombies with her SMG makes healing sundrops appear. Again, her damage is horrible, odds are she is not killing any Zombies. Give her a shotgun and she would actually be able to get kills and get the healing sundrops to drop.

And honestly, the way those 2 variants are now, is not "supportive" in the least. IMO, Fire Flower and Metal Petal are the only support variants the Sunflower has.

@JarlAdalbert

Do you play with a controller, or a keyboard and mouse? That's what I wanted to ask. See for me, being ex PC and not playing a console since my N64 I'm not as good with a controller as I am with a keyboard and mouse. I also find it amusing when you're able to follow a Scientist trail, even when he warps behind you and pops you in the rear? What the Scientist has now makes him more OP than a Chomper.

Also, I can't believe you just went there with Ice/Fire Rose, she doesn't freeze instantly anymore. Going to simply ignore that because they are absolutely horrible. Scientist can hit for 70 around 3-4 times before she can charge up ONE shot that hits the same, and hers is so slow and easy to dodge...

Interesting idea about the Cactus, but I'd still prefer a Shotgun so I don't need to aim. You won't have time to turn around and zoom, you barely even have time to turn around, but if you hip fire a Shotgun you might get a shot or two off before you get creamed and well that's better than nothing 🙂

@InC0g

PC as well I take it? Using a keyboard and mouse really changes my perception on balance ideas, but I'm using a controller and that's why I'm suggesting Shotguns for both sides.

If you won every boast with Fire Flower, including First Strike then well played. I bet you wouldn't be able to do that on console though 🙂

@Boolerex

See, that's where our opinions will differ, I doubt you'll ever play shooters with a controller and if you did, you'd feel the same in terms of balance. There's a lot more you can do with Sunflower when being able to aim and point anywhere on the map instantly, she requires pinpoint accuracy and lead shots that is much more easily done with a mouse as opposed to an analogue stick. It's why I prefer Chomper, and why I hate Cactus. If I plug in a keyboard and mouse then Cactus makes me feel like I'm cheating.

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Didn't mean to double post, having an issue with loading new pages and well, using my iPad so not gunna bother copying and pasting it into one.

Part of me feels like forums should be split up for PC and Consoles, and to be honest the versions of the game should be slightly different in terms of balance. You're probably sat there scratching your head at some of my posts too, as I am with yours. I'm not ever going to agree with any PC gamer in terms of balance for a console, you do realise that right? 

@llachie

Plants didn't need to attack and capture points in the first game, if that was aimed at me.

Open your eyes and wake up.

@JarlAdalbert

Just because a Fire Flower won every boast once, doesn't mean anything. Do you think he was using a controller? I see players on YouTube who play in XBox and they're using a keyboard and mouse, it makes a massive difference and it isn't a realistic assumption to say things are balanced. Maybe the other team just sucked and had no good players on it? Game mode and other factors should be taken into consideration.

Also on the PS4, I'm yet to see a Fire Flower on any boast since release, maybe a revive/heal boast but who cares about those, with that many plants dying left right and centre, it's no surprise they should win that one. 

I am also yet to see anyone win a vanquish master boast when I'm playing Zoologist, haven't really played broken Brainz or Imps online yet, don't really want to make more people rage quit.

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Imagine you take an average of everyone's K\D ratio, win ratio, boast ratio, time played on every class ratio, death ratio, of everyone and every single ratio of every class.

I think you'll find we both agree on something else as well, one side will be dominating the other side, I'm talking all platforms too.

Im happy with people disagreeing, if they're having a different experience, or playing on a different platform completely then of course their experience is going to be different. XBox is going to have more keyboard and mouse players than a PS4 would, not many would have wanted to pay for the XIM4 and that Hori keyboard and mouse is a bit crappy, I know because I have one and don't use it.

100 revives? What does that tell you though, she was either around every single plant that died or your team had a crazy amount of deaths, like 200 maybe...

I hope we do cross paths, there will only be one survivor and it won't be you weak little pea 😉

Speaking of PC and Console. Something I've noticed is that GW2 for console has no aim-assist...this is terrible and I would like it implemented.