Re: Let's Watch: Live from Neighborville Episode #3

Oak adjusted and not Space Station?

Horrible news for me as I wish buffs rolled out before nerfs.

I can’t fathom making some characters useless while strengthening others?  Strengthen everyone and then see what’s lacking....  frustrating to me and counters common sense.

.... Further thought process:

now the zombies will have a superior teamplay character (Space Station) plus a Mech?

Guess I’m missing the logic?

Told. Ya. So.  You don't fix OP by buffing everyone else.  You fix OP by nerfing the OP.  Otherwise you just wind up with everyone OP.

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@CJackson5083 wrote:

Told. Ya. So.  You don't fix OP by buffing everyone else.  You fix OP by nerfing the OP.  Otherwise you just wind up with everyone OP.

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Told me?

I don’t know you.

They did mention there are more changes for other characters, they do need to adjust Space Cadet/Station as they did with Oak, and they might already be doing so (although I wish they had mentioned that if so).

They're not making anyone useless really,  the adjustments to Nightcap make sense and again, her ranged attack is not doing less damage, just making her less effective at long range and making Fung Fu less of an atom bomb, and Oaks are just too good right now. 3 of the 5 characters here are getting buffed (corn, soldier, and all-star) instead of reduced which is good news.

They do need to look at Super Brainz and Engineer, and I really want a buff to Sunflower's attack.

@spIash_damage

A solo space station is nowhere near the power level of a solo oak. Thats the whole reason they are nerfing oak to begin with. At the moment its always better to have 4 oaks than it is to have 1 oak with 3 acorns in it because oaks are too powerful by themselves. A solo space station feels pretty bad to play in comparison. This actually brings oak more in line with the space station more than anything.

What i dont understand is why we are buffing foot soldier damage but not corn damage when they both fill the same role. I would understand if corn was the only one getting the fire rate increase while soldier only got the damage as they would equal out. Unfortunately thats not the case. So soldiers getting 2 buffs to his primary while corn gets 1 when they both do the same damage and fill the same role.

@Iron_Guard8 

So it will be fair that Space Station will be superior to Oak, plus the zombies have Mechs?

Shouldn’t Oak be more powerful than Space Station when you consider Mechs have almost the same hit points?

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@RockScorpion384 wrote:

@spIash_damage

A solo space station is nowhere near the power level of a solo oak. Thats the whole reason they are nerfing oak to begin with. At the moment its always better to have 4 oaks than it is to have 1 oak with 3 acorns in it because oaks are too powerful by themselves. A solo space station feels pretty bad to play in comparison. This actually brings oak more in line with the space station more than anything.

What i dont understand is why we are buffing foot soldier damage but not corn damage when they both fill the same role. I would understand if corn was the only one getting the fire rate increase while soldier only got the damage as they would equal out. Unfortunately thats not the case. So soldiers getting 2 buffs to his primary while corn gets 1 when they both do the same damage and fill the same role.

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So we’ll pretend Mechs aren’t around?

I still don’t get the logic.

 @spIash_damage

What do mechs have to do with space station and oak? Thats a completely other character that doesnt play a part in balancing the game. You cant just make space station weaker because of the fact that maybe the zombies will have a mech sometimes 🤷🏼‍♂️

Its not like the fact that the zombies have both mechs and space station is making them too overpowered anyway. Its exactly the opposite atm. Plants are dominating the game and its the zombies that are falling behind. So how much impact is having that mech actually doing for them?

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@RockScorpion384 wrote:
@spIash_damage

What do mechs have to do with space station and oak? Thats a completely other character that doesnt play a part in balancing the game. You cant just make space station weaker because of the fact that maybe the zombies will have a mech sometimes 🤷🏼‍♂️

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Really - Mechs just don't count toward balancing?

Word.  We should employ 5 - 6 more characters on the zombies team with 250+ health to really make things interesting!  Besides - it wouldn't bother Oak and Space Station.

You're right, buddy.  My bad.

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@spIash_damage wrote:

@Iron_Guard8 

So it will be fair that Space Station will be superior to Oak, plus the zombies have Mechs?

Shouldn’t Oak be more powerful than Space Station when you consider Mechs have almost the same hit points?

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Um, I addressed this in my post, why they didn't address at the livestream I have no idea, but if they nerf Oak they need to nerf the station too. I use both to make some of the more difficult PvE content easier and they're my highest rank characters thanks to that (both at super elite).

@Iron_Guard8 My bad - I didn't see you mention the Space Station needing it too, but I was referring to the plants team having 2 players with massive health.  Not necessarily the Oak v Space Station.  Hope that makes sense.

EDIT: typo

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@RockScorpion384 wrote:
@spIash_damage

Youre failing to mention:

1. Solo oak is better than solo station as ive already mentioned. The fact that its better to run multiple oaks rather than a single oak with multiple acorns should tell you that oak by himself is too good. In comparison a full space station is godlike but a solo one is ez kill, just like how a multi-player class should be. Weak when solo, strong when together.

2. Mechs are apart of another class which shouldnt impede on the balance of other classes. If sunflower+Peashooter was a really strong synergy, for example, they wouldnt just nerf the sunflowers healing rate to fix it. That would make sunflower overall worse. Sure they could make specific changes to that pairing like not bein able to heal pea gatling but that doesnt effect her power level with anyone else. You cant just balance characters because of their potential with certain other characters. Otherwise without those certain characters they would be useless.

3. Mechs are an ability that can be used every 2 minutes for 20-30 seconds before going on cd again. While station and oak have no cd’s. So you cant compare oak/station to mech in the first place

4. Plants dont have a mech sure, but they also have classes that the zombies dont have. Zombies dont get a stealth hero for example 🤷🏼‍♂️

Only people complaining about oak nerfs are the oak exploiters exactly like the nightcap players.

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So you're insinuating I'm complaining?

https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/Buffs-Before-Nerfs/td-p/8187603/

I've thought (over a week now with even @Iron_Guard8 agreeing in that thread) buffs should be applied before nerfs altogether.

I try to give constructive input and not complain.

Are you on PS4?  I'd love to game with you sometime.

@RockScorpion384 just breathe, man.  It's okay to disagree.  

I've already stated a million times that buffs should come before nerfs and that's my constructive perspective.  I have a thread about this very subject that I just linked in my previous post.

You just said I'm a complaining exploiter and I think you'd change your mind, if you gamed with me.  I'm happy to play any character anytime.

Sooooo are you on PS4?  I'd love to play a few rounds.  No reason to clog up this thread with senseless banter.

=]

@spIash_damageBuffs ARE being applied first the only 2 nerfs are for the extreme outlier classes that are clearly broken and wouldnt matter how many buffs you did to others, they would still be broken.

Oak doesnt fulfill his role as a multi-player class as he is so strong by himself theres no point. Buffing other characters wont weaken this fact. Sure a damage increase to others make oak easier/faster to kill but it doesnt solve the issue in that its always better to solo oak than jump into an oak as acorn.

As for nightcap, you could make every zombies 1 shot her and it wouldnt fix her problems. Fung fu is too much damage for so little skill. It doesnt matter what buffs you do fung fu would still be broken. Unless you buffed every zombie to 500hp so they dont instantly die thats the only solution that would make her balanced. It needed to be toned down no matter what buffs they did.

Also i never said u were a exploiter, i said all the people mad that these nerfs are happening are. Xbox 😔 

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@RockScorpion384 wrote:
@Iron_Guard8Station isnt broken tho 🤦🏻‍♂️ Oak is. Thats the difference

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Have you played with and against both? I was in a 4 cadet station that with overheal had over 700 health, plus the 3 extra cadets give shields and so on. They can vary in many ways to make them distinct and to balance them out, and I do see a lot more solo Oaks than solo Stations, but they both present problems in PvP and we use them heavily against some of the harder PvE stuff because they're both so good.

So while I do see Oak being used far more in solo fashion (and that big sap trap is far too good as you can detonate it far too quickly), they both need a look.

@spIash_damage  Indeed I agree with buffs over nerfs. However, as someone who works with other local amateur board game designers, both to test my own designs and theirs, the goal of balance is to find the baseline and then adjust everyone up or down to that level. If you have a game like Cthulhu Wars with asymmetrical factions, and one faction wins 66% of their games, one wins 34% of their games, and one wins 52% of their games, and the target is 50%, the first one is too good and needs to be brought down, the second is too low and needs to be brought up, the third, being only 2% of the desired target stays where it is. The people that loved the first faction may be unhappy with the changes to bring them in line, but it's for the overall good of the game.

I wanted to note to that often when Paladins (and I think Overwatch did this too, but they've added 3 characters since I played), new champions are often OP and then are brought down later as they want people to play them, and if they're weak, people generally won't so there's no data on their performance. Occasionally they miss that marker and need to buff instead, and often after nerfing they have to buff back up a little, but that's the general pattern.

Now I don't know what the baseline is here, I'm guessing that Peashooter is pretty close, but I'm not PopCap so can't say and my data is all anecdotal, but for the sake of argument, let's say the Peashooter is at the optimal balance point and everyone else needs to be near that point. If we give Peashooter a value of 5, we need everyone else to be, say 4.8-5.2 as that would be a good target range to go with. We want everything to be at 5.0 in this case, but that's really hard to do when characters are so different.

@RockScorpion384 Just let me know when you finish editing your posts and I’ll reply. Or better yet, when you add sentences/paragraphs, add them at the bottom of your post with an edit tag?

I’m curious if @ToastedSarnie @Iron_Guard8 or anyone else on this thread are max rank yet?  How is everyone weighing in on balance without max ranked characters?!  Let me rephrase... how do you know what needs to be balanced when you haven’t unlocked the best upgrades for most characters?

I have been for almost a week now and even I’m hesitant to speak on balancing much less insinuate other people have no skill by using certain characters.

The fact is I SLAUGHTERED Nightcaps from the beginning.  I do not play her but had no problem with her and believe she will be nerfed to the ground.  As she stands right now, she is by far the easiest frag in the history of the series.

Oak will not be weaker just harder to transform. ...how does the talk of solo Oak strength relate to his transform channeling duration and treeject?  The Sap dumb-down might change the way it’s used.... However, I think Space Station should be the same with transformation or be nerfed as the 700 hit points plus shielding is absurd.

To say anything further is beating a dead horse.

Buffs before nerfs did NOT happen.  Simultaneous buffs and nerfs did.  I disagree with that as someone who has been an active part of this community for years and have my characters maxed.  It’s okay to disagree.

Hope this clears things up.  I’m truly done with this thread.