Re: You can't Saber Attack immediately after Dodging anymore

@Bab0osh I’m not sure I’m 100% on board with this assessment for the following reasons:

1. this contributed to a greater “gameplay” environment that amounts to dodge dancing. 

because the logic of many of the characters isn’t aligned for HvV it means that when various characters interact in HvV vs GS or CS the gameplay mentality has to change in a more conservative way which results in more experienced players “dancing” in an effort to properly time an opportunity. This is imperially bad gameplay. 

2. overall server quality isn’t sufficient for this level of mechanical detail. Too many mechanical aspect fail to register or mis register on a regular basis. I sent video proof of abilities being recognized by the game yet failing to affect the opponent. I never received a response from anyone here as to the status of this.

I think that if you want to advocate for a game mechanic that results in a re-learn of gameplay and a change in the dodge & attack interaction we must first evaluate the full roster of character attributes and do a better job of balancing stats. Remember, this is a franchise and people play with whom they gravitate to. We shouldn’t have such an imbalance of character stats whereby one character, played correctly, can easily opportunity exploit another correctly played character based on stat; this happens every game. 

lastly the Devs need to look at some of the more critical mechanical interactions and try to resolve incorrect recognitions. There will always be “bugs” and that’s fine but the core gameplay mechanics need greater consistency and stability if we’re going to advocate for this level of complex and cerebral gameplay. Right now the game isn’t that stable IMO. 

I too have had this game since pre release and I have adapted the gameplay style multiple times and it’s getting old. Players want and need a degree of consistency out of the game; not to constantly shake it up all the time. No other major, successful, title employs a philosophy like that. 

I have a list of recommendations that would provide greater balance and stability if EA or anyone else cares to have it. 

@Bab0osh I'm sorry, but you're understanding it wrongly again. When I mentioned spam or hold the button, this isn't for all combat, it's just for the dodge attack to work properly. Please, follow along: You do a dodge, then you press the attack button in the correct time for the dodge attack to work, then it's done. This is the same time as it was before, or if not, it's just really minimally longer. The only issue is having to learn the proper timing. But now follow along again: You do a dodge, then you spam the attack button or hold it, you perform the dodge attack in the correct timing. I agree spamming may lead to queuing attacks, but then just hold the button and it'll perform perfectly.

So again, holding the attack button while dodging will guarantee you'll perform the dodge attack in the earliest timing after the dodge is done, which is very similar to how it was before the BUG.

Now to the other points: Stop saying it was impossible to defend oneself from such tactic. I did that all the time, either through dodging, or turning around fast enough to block it. People on Console have already told you it's doable on their end as well, so it isn't true this is impossible, for many people could do it on a regular basis. If your experience is from always hitting opponents, then you must have been playing with average players all the time, which isn't a stretch as this game is full of average players, especially on Console. And if you could never save yourself from such a situation, that meant you had to train harder, not that it's impossible.

And finally, why not compare this game to other games first, and then maybe to life if necessary? It's a core philosophy of Gaming that Rules SHOULDN'T change. Of course sometimes they need to, but that must be carefully thought because changing rules creates a lot of ambiguous feelings, many feel cheated, it's something that must be taken carefully. See all other games, and I'd love you showed me a game that changed so much in 2 years like this one has.

Now with that taken away, let me give you another comparison to show how trying to compare this to real life is like comparing Bacon to Worms: We had to learn how to mount Horses, and now we have to learn how to 'mount' Cars. Now tell me: Did yourself find the need to re-learn how to mount a Horse after you had already learned once? And mind you, not because you got away from doing it for a long time no, that's because the world suffered an update from God, which made Horses now completely different, commands you use to do something are changed, or no longer available. Have you experienced this in real life?

@Bab0osh  I can’t speak to your issue with the other member ...

to EA IT / Devs work; a lot of the inundation they face is self imposed.

the overall logics in this game are shoddy at best. This notion that the developers should attempt to implement greater complexity when they haven’t been able to sort out rudimentary mechanics is short sighted. 

I’ve watched this game decline in gameplay value greatest since release; primarily due to poor logic and then further by the inability to effectively incorporate said logic. 

EA need to get back to basics; smooth out stats and baseline mechanics then they can concern themselves with deeper elements. 

I carried out a game test after TROS update and found some things I found concerning and brought them onto these forums and in a rare turn by the community managers they shut those threads down even though no violations, name calling, or abusive behavior had occurred; they simply didn’t want the topic being discussed. 

As the gameplay is right now, today, CS & GA are pretty good; I can’t complain there .... HvV & HS are absolutely poor. The gameplay value is bad and it’s actually been bad and worse since TROS update; prior to that it wasn’t so bad. 

@Bab0osh I'm sorry but I agree with everything @RogueZeroRendar has said in this post and I've shared this thread with many others who are hardcore saber Heroes v Villains players since day one and not one person has agreed with what you're saying. The saber, dodge + attack method was way better before any of the changes and I respect your opinion you disagree but you're literally the only one I've seen be happy with the change. Did you ever see anyone complain about the older method? I didn't see one post, anyone I know or people I watch stream the game say they're unhappy with the older method yet look how many are the way it is the now. A lot!

@Bab0osh All of those philosophies for light saber combat, currently, in HvV or HS are absolutely useless because the mechanics are so o consistent and broken. 

you’re not supposed to be able to block when dodging but I have video proof of failed interactions which means you can’t properly plan or time anything; not matter what dodge / attack mechanic you implement. 

There are long term issues with hit boxes and hit recognition; characters can take damage from the front / Side which is typically recognized properly by blocks. 

all of this is intermittent which makes the gameplay too conservative; especially among experienced players. 

this combined with the Stat imbalance makes saber combat; today, literally a 1 out of 10 .... it’s really bad. 

Rather than resulting in an increase of timing and skill opportunity this seems to have exacerbated the already existing mechanical interaction faults making the saber fights even more inconsistent. this is why I recommend a “back to basics” approach. 

HvV & HS took a NOSE DIVE in quality since TROS and now it’s just as bad if not (in some ways) worse!

as for the stat imbalance it’s horrible! Kylos Frenzy is useless against hero’s yet could be balanced with a simple addition of an opponents ability restriction for duration (similar to Obi RMT) ... both Iden and Han should have splash damage, Bosk & Palp should be heavier in weight ... I mean all easy stuff. 

players aren’t wrong to be complaining right now IMO, if perhaps not for the wrong reason ... maybe the “logic” behind the new dodge / attack is sensible but it’s integration into the game isn’t nor is it’s stability or consistency. 

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@VetteC5RX wrote:

as for the stat imbalance it’s horrible! Kylos Frenzy is useless against hero’s yet could be balanced with a simple addition of an opponents ability restriction for duration (similar to Obi RMT) ... both Iden and Han should have splash damage, Bosk & Palp should be heavier in weight ... I mean all easy stuff.

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I think you’re too extreme (only for the part I quote). You should explore further the possibilities these characters offer: the Frenzy ability is not at all useless against heroes, the last shot passes through the block and even if not, you need to use his 2 others abilities before using the Frenzy to make the best use of it. Or not: you can just use the Frenzy as no-stamina needed attacks when you’re out of stamina, or as an ability that drains the opponent’s stamina.

Iden and Han already have ways to pass through the block, they don’t need splash damages. At the moment, Iden is really really strong against lightsabers if she makes a good use of her droid stun ability and her alternative shot, and Han has 2 abilities that can put his opponent in a situation where he can’t block for something like 1 or 1.5 second, and these abilities also do dmgs through the block.

Bossk in the only character in the game who can fully regen his HP, whatever the amount he’ve lost, and Palp is the only character that can attack during his dodge time. These details make them strong enough I think! 😁

I don’t disagree what you’ve said, but maybe you’ve put too much time focusing on what you prefer to have than what you can do with what you have.

@Bab0osh 100% nope!

youre quoting theory, not reality. RARELY does Kylos Frenzy actually break or bypass block, even though it’s “supposed to” it actually doesn’t. Because of the high dodge environment combined with the poor mechanical

interactions just getting it to be available on most heros is haphazard. Against characters like Luke & Annakin push & heroic might can be used in between frenzy “strikes” to damage and crowd control Kylo; this makes Frenzy a potential liability. It also means that the realistic opportunity of use makes it one of the least potentially usable abilities .. no other character has an ability that’s as inter-play conditional as Frenzy. 

The splash damage for Han & Iden pertain to the use of DC & AF respectively; the fact that they can use these abilities in immediate proximity to themselves to deal massive damage AND in the case of DC, cause a knock back; without doing damage to themselves. The logic here is flawed because it creates an imbalanced scenario when a saber user HAS to close distance to defeat them. Neither character should be able to spam high damage in close proximity with no consequence WHEN COMPARED with their other abilities.

The suggestion of making Bosk & Palp heavier isn’t a buff it’s a nerf. Making them heavier (weight) reduces their mobility. Both are excellent (when played properly) at holding an area or close quarters opponents. The additional mobility they achieve from the height they can jump takes them, too often, out of hit box recognition of saber users; hence the additional weight would reduce their jump height yet still allow them to maintain their dosage / evade stats. 

@Bab0osh I use Kylo regularly and am a lvl 293 with him and I can tell you 100% right now I’m seeing his 3rd strike NOT bypass blocks for saber users. ... the only time this is happening is if the opponent poorly times a dodge during Frenzy and the last strike lands; otherwise the opponent can simply block or block + backwards dodge and Frenzy didn’t break or bypass.

Also, Frenzy leaps REGULARLY launch Kylo into the air either on the initial or 2nd leap (its intermittent) which, again, makes the ability useless. 

Im playing on console so I don’t know what platform you’re using but I can tell you that on console it IS an issue right now. 

That aside; by adding an “ability” restriction to Frenzy on the affected opponent what you essentially gain is a limit of risk to use the ability. The ability can and always will be able to be evaded; even IF the 3rd strike issue is resolved a properly timed evade will always be available to avoid that strike; that being said, that results in an a significant potential for zero damage dealt. I can live with that, however, the risk of use of abilities on Kylo while Frenzy is active opens up too much liability. Frenzy isn’t controllable so being Pushed, Unleashed, Mighted, Shoulder charged, Dash Strike, Defensive Rush, AO Pushed ... every one of those abilities can be triggered during Frenzy to not only damage but knock back Kylo and essentially use Kylos own ability to turn the fight back against him ... I do this all the time to players using him. 

The minor tweak would remove that use liability and would at least mean that if the ability didn’t yield damage at least Kylo isn’t at risk of damage exposure himself by simply using it. 

@Bab0osh  ... Re: Bosk & Palp ... I should clarify that my suggestion to make them heavier isn’t just with regard to their jump height but also their duration. 

Both Bosk and Palp have a “float” ability. In the case of Palp he has exceptional and immediate evade as well as immediate crowd control recovery (similar to Boba) which makes it exceptionally difficult for saber users to register his hit box .... similarly with Bosk his in air height and duration and speed can keep him perpetually out of saber strike distance; that combined with his strong proximity abilities is imbalanced. 

I invite you to read my post @Bab0osh , where did I say you're against? I said I don't agree and nobody I know or seen  agree with what you've wrote in this thread  and when your first post is "I’m sorry but I don’t agree with this report."

Then you make some points about how the older dodge + attack to the back mechanic was too easy to proceed , it needs more skill and how it was frustrating the best way to play was unskilled. Another post you actually write "Change the current dodge + attack mechanics: no." (Which looked like you're meaning no to changing back to the way it was)

These points are what I was saying people I know , including myself don't agree with. I'll tell you why, and these points are for saber combat only in HvV. So if you're a Heroes v Villains player you should agree the game mode itself is revolved around super cheap mechanics, especially saber combat mainly rewarded by spamming a saber , spamming block and spamming abilities which is usually rewarded due to poor input server lag (causing failed blocks and dodges etc) and even more cheap was how grouped teams chained all of these against solo players or people not very good at the game. So the game mode itself is based on cheap play and this is the main reason why people including myself preferred the easier mechanic to dodge + attack to the back. Why after 2 and a half years should we now learn a new method? It won't change the way the game mode itself is played by almost every player I've seen on the enemy team or else i would agree with everything you've said especially if saber combat was left uninterrupted. 

@Bab0osh I’m on Xbox and my console is hardwired to my gateway with a consistent strong connection; my ping didn’t exceed 18ms. That isn’t the issue. 

Frenzy is far from OP. These “tips” people give aren’t realistic. If you play that much then you realize that in the fluidity of gameplay you encounter opponents whom you don’t know which abilities they many have in cool down. This “notion” that a squad of random players will regularly stick together isn’t what really happens ... regardless, what I’m getting at is if you approach an opponent initially and engage them you don’t know what abilities they do or don’t have in cool down. 

to take your advice I would have to sacrifice opportunities to use Frenzy until I could confirm that their abilities have been used, are in cool down, and can’t be used against me. ... I’m sorry but that’s poor quality. This amounts to an ability with a great degree of inter-gameplay condition; far more than any other ability in the game. 

the fact that frenzy can be evaded with absolutely zero damage dealt makes the ability FAR from OP ... very far. 

I can’t speak to PS but on Xbox; the 3rd strike doesn’t bypass or break blocks and I have video of this. It was posted here and nothing was done about it. I don’t know if the issue is specific to Xbox but other players here have agreed that the 3rd strike doesn’t hit as it should. 

All of that being said Frenzy is far from OP .... you have VERY limited opportunity to use it, it’s still broken (at least for Xbox), and even if it does get fixed it doesn’t deal high damage, AND will always be able to be 100% evaded. 

that’s incredibly poor logic. And so is the requirement for the manual camera reorientation! 

You “can” combine frenzy with freeze to try and guarantee a hit but that’s garbage also because that means you have to stack and burn two abilities together just to get a single hit! If that’s the case damage output should be increased or the cool down times reduced. Combining Freeze and frenzy is further poor because Freeze can (and usually does) have a far larger AOE than Frenzy so having to run to close distance until Frenzy is available you risk having Freeze wear off; what happens is your opponent is already in block by the time the first lap lands. 

When you compare the opportunity of use and effectiveness of Frenzy to the abilities of every other character you come up short! Nobody else has abilities that require such a narrow window and extensive set of circumstances in order to use AND, for an ability with a damage output that’s in-line with a regular ol saber strike. 

not OP bud, far from it. Do you know how many times I’ve saved Frenzy to use against a Luke, Annakin, or Obi who’s at a sliver of health and legit zero damage was done? ... And that’s after multiple uses as Frenzy has a short cool down. The block break issue is a big deal and it’s not working on Xbox and if that would get fixed I think it would be an improvement, however, I still maintain that because of:

the way the gameplay transpires in HvV / HS

the very limited scope of use of Frenzy

its limited damage output 

for those 3 reasons the addition i recommended of opponent ability restriction is valid. The only thing that does is prevents Kylo from being injured during the ability ... and speaking of injured ... the damage reduction during frenzy is a joke. 

@Bab0osh I do use Kylo often and could probably write the book on best practices; and have game recordings available on my game feed to show it.

i don’t use Freeze + Frenzy; I was using that as an example.

I have no idea why the 3rd strike doesn’t bypass blocks on Xbox; I know that it’s supposed to. 

My issue with it (bug aside) is that if you look at every other character they’ve been given modifications to minimize vulnerability when using abilities that might expose them: Obi gets reduction and knock back resistance during push; Vader gets the same during choke (and can now block during), Grevious has knockback resistance during UA... Kylos Frenzy got nothing. 

My defense against Kylos works about as well as Lysol .. a well timed dodge + crowd control ability; not only do I get zero damage taken but I damage Kylo and control him. That’s a big exposure! I melt even high level Kylos with this. 

By only allowing the ability to be used “by surprise” it drastically limits the proper chances of use and, IMO, the potential REALISTIC damage output is too low to justify the ability as balanced or good. 

Kylos 6th card is rarely worth it for me; because of the 3rd hit bug rarely does Fenzy ever do any damage ... I actually have to run the card which enables Kylo to leap further for Fenzy; without it the AOE is so small the ability is almost useless because of the high mobility environment the Devs have turned this game into. The dodge factor has become so prevalent opponents are in out of the AOE before it can be triggered. 

The 3rd strike issue is major because at least if that worked the risk could somewhat be justified in that there’s a realistic potential of damage deal but as is now, it’s moot. ... I started to believe the Devs removed that aspect and never put it in the notes. 

There are a slew of other strange “bugs”, at least in the Xbox version .. take a look at the clips below. The game clearly “recognizes” the ability usage but applies no affect nor refunds the ability. This happens often. I have posted this various times in these forums to no feedback and no response. 

https://youtu.be/sLzwwWQyysQ

https://youtu.be/cwvZ7g2XOd8

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@Bab0osh wrote:
@RogueZeroRendar
I’m not missing the point, if somebody involved in a lightsaber fight thinks spamming the attack button or holding it can make the win, in the first case he’ll perform more than one attack and probably hitting the air, in the second case he’ll probably do nothing, finally he’ll just see himself being outplayed by his opponent.

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@Bab0osh 

You were either talking about something else, and your explanation could fit in multiple other things, or you were saying things you have no knowledge at all: I tested this, and spamming while the dodge isn't over haven't made me queue any extra attack after the first one. And holding makes it work 100% of the time as well. This was tested relentlessly, and with 100% of success rate. So you stated something false. It would be better to have admitted to have understood me wrongly instead of stating false things because you haven't properly tested them yourself.

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@Bab0osh wrote:
This issue is clearly linked to the hit detection improvements in the code, because before it was impossible to hit somebody during the whole dodge+attack combo, like if it was just a dodge. Advanced players were just doing this combo again and again, never stopping. I know it because I did it a lot. It was really frustrating to know that the best way to play was this unskilled.

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@Bab0osh wrote:
For the “impossible to defend oneself” thing you mentioned I don’t know what to say excepted “read again what I’ve wrote” because you didn’t understand. Don’t waste your time I’ll do it for you: I was only speaking about new players with default options.

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Okay I've read again, and in no place you said it was just for new players.

And also, why it must cater to new players anyway? Aren't the new players supposed to improve in the game? Isn't a game all about improving your own experience? Which means learning the game in some way? Better to create the tooltips you complain don't exist, then to remove all sorts of difficulty levels so the playfield is even between the veterans and the new players. Oh and a working matchmaking, that truly balance teams, not just balancing lobbies for EA servers to have less strain. And just to reassure: again you're saying something not true. It was ridiculously easy to hit a dodging character, for spamming and tracking did the trick most of the time. It was a nuisance many complained, it was seen as extra long reach on melee attacks, so your evaluation of the situation is completely off from the reality of the majority of the players.

And well, bringing the Argument of Authority really doesn't add anything to the validity of the arguments exposed here. At best it just shows how lacking someone on your position is, which in turn sounds just like embarrassing yourself.

I wasn't being contemptuous our haughty, I was trying to show you what you're saying wrongly, with a bit of irony in the 'real life' comparison because your comparison really had nothing to do with what was being exposed here, yet in your own understanding you felt attacked. But then, coming here to relentlessly dismiss this report based on false assumptions, not wanting to understand what the others are saying for your vastly superior gameplay experience surely beats ours, and even derailing the topic a lot, can only be seen as being contemptuous and haughty.

If you want an explanation one last time, here we go: Holding the attack button while dodging will ensure you do a dodge attack (as long as you aren't holding any directional) as soon as possible, probably in the same timing as before, and if not, just miliseconds longer then the old one. I have the footage, I can time them if needed, but I can say from experience it feels the same, so if there's a delay indeed, it has to be a very small one, measured in a split second. So with that, the advantageous change you so preached doesn't exist, for the timing is the same or really close to it.

What you have seen in your experience is people failing the timings because they aren't used to them yet. Also, dodge attacks can still be performed with a delay, and that was true in the past too. There's a good window of time after a dodge that allows the following attack to be a dodge attack instead of a normal attack. As people have been failing the timing to do it ASAP, that doesn't mean they are failing the larger timing to actually perform the Dodge Attack itself, which might seem like a confirmation of your theory, when in reality it isn't.

@Bab0osh please show me evidence of u killing 3 or 4 enemy team players who are saber spamming and ability spamming u all at the same time. U should find no problem providing it since u kill them all the time. I really think you're playing a different game to anyone else 😂 also stamina won't save u if you're unable to dodge due to it being inconsistent so at times u can only rely on blocking which is also inconsistent and usually your stamina is drained right away anyway by block when it does work. I would love to see a few clips of u surving and killing all 3 or 4 of the enemy team and I don't mean by force pushing them all off the map

@RogueZeroRendar  After TROS update I had done some game testing myself because something about the mechanics didn’t feel right ....

through my testing I believed that a tiered handicap had been added to the game with TROS update which provided a buff for new, lower level class and characters, in a progressively declining tiered format. 

Myself and others on these forums observed MUCH of the same thing where gameplay attributes appeared to be different for players using characters of a lower progression level (NOT gameplay level {max 50)}

The rationale being that with TROS update new players may join the game and if you search these forums under Game Information you’ll find lots of threads started by new gamers about getting steamrolled by experienced players.

it “seemed” to myself and to MANY others who commented that this was done to draw new players to the title. I still believe this to somewhat be in effect yet I cannot prove it other than the observations I’ve recorded in both controlled and open testing. 

If you’re asking about why the game may be “revised” toward new players; consider that for a moment. 

@RogueZeroRendar well I'm glad someone like u is making sense in this thread and I can see everyone agrees with u except only 1 person. Keep up the good work buddy