There is a persistent isssue with how ships function in GA. If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA. Because fleets account for very little of your battle scores, they become almost meaningless.I understand that a fleet only GA would be difficult due to the limited number of fleet options, but couldn’t we have a fleet top or bottom solo zone that is with double points to bring them total GA result more fair? Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.This is especially emphasized when an opponent can view your fleet strength during setup and decide to make getting to the fleet battle near impossible.

When your opponent has a significant advantage in squad GP and the only fleet zone is protected by a squad zone, the fact that you have a strong fleet does not compensate for your relative weakness in squads.Your opponent has the option of setting a strong front line and still attacking with good squads.

"Waqui;c-1775585" wrote:"Rath_Tarr;c-1775511" wrote:When your opponent has a significant advantage in squad GP and the only fleet zone is protected by a squad zone, the fact that you have a strong fleet does not compensate for your relative weakness in squads.Your opponent has the option of setting a strong front line and still attacking with good squads.And this is why you save more of your strong characters for offense, when you believe your defensive fleet will hold the zone.These are basically troll comments with no real insight into the problem. I suffer the same issue the OP does. I tried the weak D strategy but I still ran out of good teams so I lost but a few points. My opponent trampled my defenses getting a near perfect score. For people that have refined squad rosters, it’s virtually impossible to win when you’re 200k-300k behind them in squad power. Strategy should never be “hope I get matched up with 7 idiots that think g12 ugnaught and 60 other g8 toons constitutes a good roster.”Since Han’s falcon came out, the problem has only amplified. Now you only need 2 fleets (rebels for O and BH for D). Rebels nearly always win if you have good rebel ships and know how to use them. And BH on D is just a good fleet that allows you to get defense points. Having good geonosians or empire ships does nothing but hurt me in matchmaking because they will never be used.

Being better than them, i.e. choosing better teams for defense and better managing attacks, is what grand arena is all about.I have faced and defeated players with more character GP than I have and several more zetas and gear 12 characters. The ones that give me trouble are almost invariably the ones with higher arena ranks and ones with better mods.

“Believe it or not: My alt successfully applied this strategy in 3 battles now against opponents with much weaker ships.”Give us some details on your alt. Total GP and ship GP? How your alt only been successful 3 times out of all the GA battles? That’s not very successful. I say this is trolling because you’re quick to jump on any post like this and tell people that they suffer from bad strategy without ever getting into details. I’m telling you it’s not bad strategy...it’s unfair matches.“Well, it's a requirement, that you can clear his board, for that strategy to work.”I did...so now what is the problem with my strategy?“I don't believe, you understood the strategy, I described, because this isn't it.”I don’t believe you understand the problem that me and the OP are facing which is why your so quick to say it’s bad strategy.My opponent split his teams to leave strong D and have some strong teams on O. I put all midrange teams on D leaving only my best teams and trash toons (about 5 g8 guys) for O. I beat each of his teams except one on the first try and with a near perfect score. That last team I beat on the second try. I had to whittle his team down because I ran out of good players to crush him.I lost by 25 points. Losing by 25 under those conditions means that I needed to win that last battle on the first try, not lose anyone in the fight, and/or have a couple more toons end battles with 100% health and protection. If I literally ran out of competitive toons by this last fight then how exactly is this system fair and my strategy lacking? If 45% of my GP can translate into 25% of my total score but 30% of my opponent’s GP can translate into 25% of his score, how is this system fair?

"Stokerini;c-1775673" wrote:"Scuttlebutt;c-1775661" wrote:"Waqui;c-1775585" wrote:"Rath_Tarr;c-1775511" wrote:When your opponent has a significant advantage in squad GP and the only fleet zone is protected by a squad zone, the fact that you have a strong fleet does not compensate for your relative weakness in squads.Your opponent has the option of setting a strong front line and still attacking with good squads.And this is why you save more of your strong characters for offense, when you believe your defensive fleet will hold the zone.These are basically troll comments with no real insight into the problem. I suffer the same issue the OP does. I tried the weak D strategy but I still ran out of good teams so I lost but a few points. My opponent trampled my defenses getting a near perfect score. For people that have refined squad rosters, it’s virtually impossible to win when you’re 200k-300k behind them in squad power. Strategy should never be “hope I get matched up with 7 **** that think g12 ugnaught and 60 other g8 toons constitutes a good roster.”Since Han’s falcon came out, the problem has only amplified. Now you only need 2 fleets (rebels for O and BH for D). Rebels nearly always win if you have good rebel ships and know how to use them. And BH on D is just a good fleet that allows you to get defense points. Having good geonosians or empire ships does nothing but hurt me in matchmaking because they will never be used.Glad you can clearly see the problem. Most of the other replies have valid points with the emphasis on strategy, but it still comes down to being disadvantaged. Any opponent worth their salt can still win. Especially if the other team protects their fleet zone behind their top defense teams.I have found that a sound strategy on my part will help me win 2 out of three and I always place in the #2-4 range.I have both the current meta and the prior meta and am ended everyday at #1 in fleets. Why am I penalized in GA for this? If I have 1.1mil fleet GP and 1.6m squad GP and there is one space battle and 5 squad battles. How will I have a fair chance when almost everyone else I go against may have a 2m squad GP and 700k fleet GP? Even if I win on fleet defense and fleet offense, that is 2 out of 10 battles. Now I have 8 battles and my remaining GP is 400k less than my opponent. This can cover up to 4 g12 teams with multiple zetas on each. How is that fair?Yea I get 2 wins in every GA as well. Usually it’s the last guy with a refined roster that just stomps me. The only thing people like you and I can do (right now) is focus our fleet development to just the current meta and ignore all other ships (I’m stuck but you have a lower GP so you can get out). At the same time, just refine your squad roster for a few months until eventually your ratio of ship GP to squad GP gets closer to the competition.

GA Fleet Imbalance | EA Forums

Waquira
6 years ago
"Scuttlebutt;c-1776276" wrote:
"Waqui;c-1776122" wrote:

This is GA - not fleet arena. Wether your fleet holds on defense or not depends just as much on your opponent's ships as it depends on yours.

The OP discusses strong ships in GA - not in general. He discusses having strong ships / weak characters against opponents with strong characters instead.

It really shouldn't be necessary to remind you of this.

No, the OP discusses imbalance in ship scores with respect to matchmaking.

Yes, that's what I'm referring to. He calls having very strong fleet a disadvantage - which it couldn't possibly be if the opponent is in the same situation - hence my wording.

And still: Having very strong fleets can be turned to your advantage. They can decide the battle. They are in no way meaningless as the OP claims.

"Scuttlebutt;c-1776276" wrote:

You’re the one that turned into a discussion of lack of strategy ...

That's a lie. I never claimed anybody here lack strategy. It's not the first time you state this lie. Now stop it.

Yes, I suggested a strategy to turn a strong fleet into your advantage, and some requirements for it to work - but that's a different thing.

"Scuttlebutt;c-1776276" wrote:

which eventually led to my last comment. You did this just like you’ve done on two of my previous discussions on this topic which is why I keep commenting that you’re trolling these discussions.

Oh! So you hold some kind of personal grudge against me. I wondered why you kept going with all your nonsense. Now it all makes sense. Well, this game of yours has gone too far now. I'll leave you to your own babbling.
Waquira
6 years ago
"Scuttlebutt;c-1776354" wrote:
This thread, I thought the OP made a good point and didn’t want to see you troll him too.

OP made several points. One was on how many points were rewarded for fleet battles in GA. I didn't discuss that. Other points were:

"Stokerini;d-195418" wrote:
If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA.

Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.

And yes, you can turn having a very strong fleet to your advantage and win. I don't see how having a very strong fleet is a disadvantage. That's why I gave my suggestion. Take it when it applies to you or don't - but your whole discussion of my suggestion, using yourself as an example when the suggestion clearly didn't apply to you was wgat derailed this whole discussion.
EA_Rtas
Community Manager
6 years ago
Alright folks, stick to the topic of the thread please and leave out the bickering, if you have a different opinion to someone thats fine but don't derail the thread with personal arguments.
stokerini
6 years ago
"Waqui;c-1776468" wrote:
"Scuttlebutt;c-1776354" wrote:
This thread, I thought the OP made a good point and didn’t want to see you troll him too.

OP made several points. One was on how many points were rewarded for fleet battles in GA. I didn't discuss that. Other points were:

"Stokerini;d-195418" wrote:
If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA.

Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.

And yes, you can turn having a very strong fleet to your advantage and win. I don't see how having a very strong fleet is a disadvantage. That's why I gave my suggestion. Take it when it applies to you or don't - but your whole discussion of my suggestion, using yourself as an example when the suggestion clearly didn't apply to you was wgat derailed this whole discussion.

A strong fleet will only help you if you can both win on offense and hold on defense, while clearing all other zones. If you are blocked from the fleet zone then you fail.

Also because fleet GP is much larger than squad GP by the ratios already mentioned earlier, this block option is easier to achieve
As you may have 4 additional g12 zetaed squads based on my earlier post with someone having a 400k squad GP advantage.

It seems counterintuitive for someone who focuses on fleets to have a better chance winning a squads only GA than a squads/fleets GA.

I recommend that EA/CG update GA to never block fleet zones by squads, and increase points from those zone wins to match the GP ratio difference between ships and squads
Waquira
6 years ago
"Stokerini;c-1776731" wrote:
"Waqui;c-1776468" wrote:
"Scuttlebutt;c-1776354" wrote:
This thread, I thought the OP made a good point and didn’t want to see you troll him too.

OP made several points. One was on how many points were rewarded for fleet battles in GA. I didn't discuss that. Other points were:

"Stokerini;d-195418" wrote:
If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA.

Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.

And yes, you can turn having a very strong fleet to your advantage and win. I don't see how having a very strong fleet is a disadvantage. That's why I gave my suggestion. Take it when it applies to you or don't - but your whole discussion of my suggestion, using yourself as an example when the suggestion clearly didn't apply to you was wgat derailed this whole discussion.

A strong fleet will only help you if you can both win on offense and hold on defense, while clearing all other zones. If you are blocked from the fleet zone then you fail.

If your opponent is able to completely block you from reaching his fleet zone, then it he must have a team for which you have no counter. In that case it's not your strong fleet that causes your loss.

"Stokerini;c-1776731" wrote:

Also because fleet GP is much larger than squad GP by the ratios already mentioned earlier, this block option is easier to achieve
As you may have 4 additional g12 zetaed squads based on my earlier post with someone having a 400k squad GP advantage.

In my alt's current battle (battling for first) the difference is 200k GP (opponent has 200k more character GP and 200K less fleet GP). He also has an advantage on g12 characters (23 vs. 14) and appears to be well focused, leaving most of his unused characters at lvl 1. However, even though he ranks 20 on his fleet shard, I noticed, that my fleet is significantly stronger. I could place a defensive fleet, which I guessed, he could not defeat. I applied my strategy (5 weak defensive character teams, and a strong fleet). I saved all my strong teams for offense and cleared the board. He didn't even attack my defensive fleet. He has nothing that can beat it. I can send you screenshots after the round ends, if you like.

"Stokerini;c-1776731" wrote:

It seems counterintuitive for someone who focuses on fleets to have a better chance winning a squads only GA than a squads/fleets GA.

It's a duel. It depends on your opponent as well as on you. Today, my strong fleet (and my strategy) wins me the battle.

"Stokerini;c-1776731" wrote:

I recommend that EA/CG update GA to never block fleet zones by squads, and increase points from those zone wins to match the GP ratio difference between ships and squads

Sounds fine to me. However, until this happens (if it happens) I will use my fleet to my advantage whenever I can.
Pengin83
6 years ago
"Waqui;c-1776907" wrote:
"Stokerini;c-1776731" wrote:
"Waqui;c-1776468" wrote:
"Scuttlebutt;c-1776354" wrote:
This thread, I thought the OP made a good point and didn’t want to see you troll him too.

OP made several points. One was on how many points were rewarded for fleet battles in GA. I didn't discuss that. Other points were:

"Stokerini;d-195418" wrote:
If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA.

Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.

And yes, you can turn having a very strong fleet to your advantage and win. I don't see how having a very strong fleet is a disadvantage. That's why I gave my suggestion. Take it when it applies to you or don't - but your whole discussion of my suggestion, using yourself as an example when the suggestion clearly didn't apply to you was wgat derailed this whole discussion.

A strong fleet will only help you if you can both win on offense and hold on defense, while clearing all other zones. If you are blocked from the fleet zone then you fail.

If your opponent is able to completely block you from reaching his fleet zone, then it he must have a team for which you have no counter. In that case it's not your strong fleet that causes your loss.

"Stokerini;c-1776731" wrote:

Also because fleet GP is much larger than squad GP by the ratios already mentioned earlier, this block option is easier to achieve
As you may have 4 additional g12 zetaed squads based on my earlier post with someone having a 400k squad GP advantage.

In my alt's current battle (battling for first) the difference is 200k GP (opponent has 200k more character GP and 200K less fleet GP). He also has an advantage on g12 characters (23 vs. 14) and appears to be well focused, leaving most of his unused characters at lvl 1. However, even though he ranks 20 on his fleet shard, I noticed, that my fleet is significantly stronger. I could place a defensive fleet, which I guessed, he could not defeat. I applied my strategy (5 weak defensive character teams, and a strong fleet). I saved all my strong teams for offense and cleared the board. He didn't even attack my defensive fleet. He has nothing that can beat it. I can send you screenshots after the round ends, if you like.

"Stokerini;c-1776731" wrote:

It seems counterintuitive for someone who focuses on fleets to have a better chance winning a squads only GA than a squads/fleets GA.

It's a duel. It depends on your opponent as well as on you. Today, my strong fleet (and my strategy) wins me the battle.

"Stokerini;c-1776731" wrote:

I recommend that EA/CG update GA to never block fleet zones by squads, and increase points from those zone wins to match the GP ratio difference between ships and squads

Sounds fine to me. However, until this happens (if it happens) I will use my fleet to my advantage whenever I can.

Finding a strategy that works in certain situations does not mean that the disadvantage doesn’t exist. I think enough people have presented the mathematical problems with the current system in relation to GP and matchmaking.
Waquira
6 years ago
"Scuttlebutt;c-1778213" wrote:

Finding a strategy that works in certain situations does not mean that the disadvantage doesn’t exist.

However, it proves that having a strong fleet isn't necessarily a disadvantage, like OP claimed, and it also proves, that you can win when having a strong fleet, contrary to OP's claims. I'd prefer a strong fleet to a weak one any day.

Furthermore, I'm happy for you, that you've realised, that my suggested strategy only works on some cases (when believe your defensive fleet can survive, while you defeat the enemy's defensive fleet). That's progress. Congratulations.
Waquira
6 years ago
"Stokerini;c-1776731" wrote:
"Waqui;c-1776468" wrote:
"Scuttlebutt;c-1776354" wrote:
This thread, I thought the OP made a good point and didn’t want to see you troll him too.

OP made several points. One was on how many points were rewarded for fleet battles in GA. I didn't discuss that. Other points were:

"Stokerini;d-195418" wrote:
If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA.

Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.

And yes, you can turn having a very strong fleet to your advantage and win. I don't see how having a very strong fleet is a disadvantage. That's why I gave my suggestion. Take it when it applies to you or don't - but your whole discussion of my suggestion, using yourself as an example when the suggestion clearly didn't apply to you was wgat derailed this whole discussion.

A strong fleet will only help you if you can both win on offense and hold on defense, while clearing all other zones. If you are blocked from the fleet zone then you fail.

If you are blockef from the fleet zone it means that your opponent could just as well have chosen to block you from the character zone in the back. You would be at a huge disadvantage in both scenarios. And in both scenarios, the reason for that disadvantage is not your strong fleet - it because you don't have a counter to whatever blocks you.
Waquira
6 years ago
"Stokerini;c-1780230" wrote:
GA is a combination of strategy and squad/fleet strength. Either can be ignored to your detriment. I did not intend this posting to be about strategy. There are other places in the forums dedicated to that.

This was meant to talk about advantages/disadvantages in GA. I think my point has been made pretty clearly that a high relative ratio of fleet power to squad power (both with a singular fleet and in aggregate) can be a disadvantage. This is an imbalance. Skill/strategy can overcome imbalances, but it doesn’t negate the fact the imbalance exists.

As previously stated, you made several points in your original post including:

"Stokerini;d-195418" wrote:
If you have a very strong fleet then you are automatically disadvantaged in GA.

Otherwise those of us who have focused on fleets will never win a GA that includes fleets which seems to be the opposite of what was intended for GA fleets.

This is from your own original post. I don't agree with this. Having a very strong fleet is an advantage. Players with very strong fleets can win as well in GA. Without my strong fleet I would only have won 2/3 in the recent GA. My strong fleet won me the 3rd victory as well. Without it I would probably have lost.

(Yes, having a lot of fluff GP ships in your fleet is a disadvantage, but that's beside your point, I believe)

Ok, carry on discussing your other points.

Edited. Added:

I notice that you changed your wording. In your original post the wording was a very strong fleet will automaticaly put you at a disadvantage (I disagree), whereas your new wording is, that it can be a disadvantage (a lot of things can be a disadvantage, so I can't really argue with this).
Waquira
6 years ago
"Scuttlebutt;c-1780200" wrote:

To show you what a disadvantage is, I win with my CLS squad arena against Revan teams all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a disadvantage by playing them. I’m pretty sure everyone else in my top 200 would agree that I am at a disadvantage with this team.

We're discussing GA - not squad arena. Your CLS team just needs to win once in GA. How your CLS team would have held on defense is relevant in squad arena (and you may be at a disadvantage in squad arena) but it's completely irrelevant in GA. Since your CLS can win in GA offense, I don't see the disadvantage here.