Forum Discussion

7 years ago

New players have no chance....

At the point in this game if nothing changes the average new player has no chance to catch up to the current state of the game right now. Also before the excel sheet and strategy gamers who plot out their first 50 levels are not who I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the average gamer who may discover the forums after 6 months maybe or not at all. I kind of feel like CG showed it when they said how many actually use mods. Its been said the average life of SWGOH gamers now is between level 40 and 60 levels that's generous. These numbers were before all the newest additions traya, chewie, Jango, revan, the bounty hunters, and quite a few more. The little ones don't matter as much as the big names because new gamers see and want them. Then they find out it will be 2+ years before they get a shot at most of them. So they say screw it. What is the point in playing a game where it takes you years more more to just start getting to the really cool stuff. We're not even mentioning with this game they will have probably added more goalposts turning 2+ into 4+ years.

All of this equates to the premature end of a game. EA tends to not care and when revenue drops to low they will release SWGOH 2. That is there modus operandi. I know I will get all the nay sayers and people saying how much easier things have become and they have but nowhere near enough to keep new players coming in and STAYING.

I use for example Clash of Clans and Supercell which I have played since inception and is completely F2P. One of the few true F2P actually out there. The game as it is now is completely nothing like the game I started playing. The reason was they changed the game because they realized the new players were quitting when they realized it would take 2+ years to get to Th10. 4 hr regen times on heroes. Armies taking 2 to 3 hours to build. Spells being the same and so on. Supercell has also also been running one of the longest mobile games in existence so I think they are a valid example of how to achieve longevity and if asked they 2 things our design staff and our fan feedback.

Supercell did a mass survey and asked it's players specifically the newer ones what was it that turned them from the game. The answer was obvious that everything took way too long up to and getting to the higher THs unless you rushed. It took time but now heroes regen in 15+ minutes, armies build in 30 mins give or take and much more. The game has never been better is it back up to the the top spot no but they did true QOL updates not the smoke and mirrors here. This game hasn't even made it remotely close to being number 1 in any chart that alone should speak to the business acumen between companies like Supercell and CG/EA

I was one of those gamers who just started playing because it was SW and looked fun and messed around with my account and didn't get serious until about lvl 50. I am now 85 and after spending more money then I care to say just recently unlocked CLS and will get JTR the next time. Chewie, Revan, C3PO, Jedi Luke, Dark Revan, and the other big names I will probably never get before I quit or this game dies or they release the sequel. I'm cool with that but the vast majority of new gamers are not cool with being told it will be 2 years or so before they get to play with the really cool toys.

It's true every game has a finite time but the developers can choose to make it last longer or hasten it. CG is doing nothing but hastening this games downfall. Easing the pain of the new player and even the vets will go long way toward the longevity of this game and before someone says it NO people aren't asking for stuff for free just a reasonable time frame and chance to acquire them

Just because i know their will be ones of you who will say I'm crazy and use the lame excuse that things were harder last year and that if they could do it blah blah gag gag others can too. I'm going to laugh at you and ask this just because your great grandpa and grandma use to walk out to a wooden shed to crap at night means you should too by your logic but we all know you wouldn't.

*edit* Before my post was unavailable I saw a couple parts of some and one was the tired old horse of " We always hear the game is failing and yet it is still here." True but in mass those statements were made due to game updates not player retention. Any game developer will tell you even in the age of these micro transactions that attracting new players, keeping new players, and ultimately retaining those new players is the SURVIVAL of a game. Anybody who posts a rebuttal arguing against me cannot argue against this irrefutable fact. If you do then I challenge you to ask every YT game changer, write every game magazine and every EXPERT on the field in magazines, blogs, or whatever and they will tell you the same thing every time.

I'm not arguing the game is rolling up tomorrow or well I wasn't until the huge PR stunt Grand Arena failed so spectacularly which won't help bring bring new players in. Yet it wont die tomorrow but all of what i have listed will harden this is another comparison to Supercell but I think SC has released perhaps 2 maybe maybe 3 and they were hot fixed in hours. Yet another example of a company that cares about their game, yes profits, and more importantly their players unlike some we can name.

TL;DR CG needs to make it easier for new players to get going and mid players to keep going. Also it wouldn't hurt to vets a bone.

tatoskok
7 years ago
As a new player, I think the biggest probably is power creep.

As every new release (e.g. Revan, HT, etc.) comes out, it's extremely OP. Unlike with older players, an OP character is only slightly (let's say 5% better for arguments sake) than the last OP character which they've had multiple events/chances to collect.

For a new player, if you miss the OP release on the initial release, then that +5% power difference is more like +25% vs younger inventories. That means new, non-whale/kraken, players are at a much higher disadvantage because these OP releases have such a bigger impact on newer, younger players than with older players who have counter teams, other OPs, more options.

In my shard, Bastilla was release, then GMY, then Revan. These are 3 strong Jedi team members which immediately dominated the squad arena with Jedi meta. While there's still some Empire/Sith in top 20, the Sith is the underdogs unless that player purchased Sith meta or restarted their account until they started with a Sith meta (DN, DS).

In my fleet shard, one guy purchased the HT pack (most of our shard wasn't high enough level for HT marquee), with a g2 Bossk (1 or 2 star) and a 3 star HT, he held the top position for more than a month. His fleet GP is still half of everybody else in the top 25 and he still (months later) is constantly in the top 10 with a 4/5 star HT fighting full 7 star fleets at twice his GP.

The power creep on OP releases affects newer players a lot more than older players. Any new player that is competitive a little will get frustrated that a single release can impact their entire gameplay. For older players, Revan was an OP, but there were many counters and other teams with synergy that could alleviate that. For younger players, there's less options.

The only option for younger players is to spend money - it's full p2p. The new players trying to do f2p are great, but they need to set their expectations that 1 person can buy 1 pack and be unbeatable for weeks or months until that release is put on a hard node that requires months of farming to release.
Warp3dM1nd
7 years ago
"icanectc;c-1715189" wrote:
While you kinda go on a rant there at the end, you do bring up a good point about scalability. Even MMOs after years of existence allow new players to start at max level provide decent gear etc to help ease the transition. While im not necessarily in the opinion this game is at the point where peeps are heavily outed and needs a buff to get them started one day it could happen. Nothing would prevent a brand new player from farming kotor toons and getting revan immediately before cls jtr chewie etc.

Fact is new players can build squads anyway they want there isn't a specific progression required of them. Though us players artificially create one.

My buddy started playing in October when revan dropped and was in an entirely new shard first place was Phoenix. By Dec there was 20 revans running horrible jedi squads. So I'm not sure we are at the place where new players need help. Cg and ea definitely have metrics that know when people fall off vs stay playing and in willing to bet it's within normal parameters. Otherwise we would see something being done. If anything they are creating more end game content. Proving it's player base is driving them to create this.

I did go on rant which I'm sure didn't help my argument but I'm really passionate about this. I know that if CG doesn't change and keeps on with their current release new players won't have a chance with power creep and everything else unless they sit down with an excel sheet and a guide and basically play somebody else's game just so they have chance once they get to 70+. Your buddy got lucky most of us new players are not. The shard I got dropped in it was nothing to see 4 to 6 zeta full G12 arena teams starting at 800. The 100 of my shard is ungodly and I know I will never get close. I suspect we have a discord mafia but can't prove it so far. My fleet is the same way 7* HT ,Bombers, and the list of newly released 7* ships. I fully admit my ships are lagging behind so I can barely stay above 200. It just reinforces that I didn't get serious until somewhere between lvl 50 & 60. I'm 85 and have spent more money then care to think about and my account is realistically prob a lvl60.

"Liath;c-1715193" wrote:
Where are these irrefutable facts of yours? What data do you have regarding player retention rates and how they have changed over time?

It's all around and you are a blind man if you don't see it. The amount of dead guilds and dead accounts ranging mostly from 40 to 60 is all around. In my alliance alone which has roughly 8 guilds ranging from the hard core to training. We actively try and go out and recruit new players and teach them the ropes and build them up and we have had 2 successes in the last 6 months out of 100s of players. When they quit the answer is almost always the same. They don't want to have to wait 2years or more to fully enjoy the game.

You go to the reviews section in the store and read new player reviews and they all say the same. Great if you want to mess around SW Toons but if you are a competitive gamer prepare to spend years to just get to the competitive level and by that time you are already behind on whatever new thing they have released.

One reviewer wrote I played until level 63 and I advise any serious gamer to stay away. Since I started playing every update is incredibly buggy and almost makes you the gamer feel like you are beta testing their game for them. Power creep is rife in the game and they purposefully bottleneck you on the gear you need which every toon seems to need 2 to 6 of to upgrade while you sit there with literally 1000s of other gear. Unless you have a ton of cash or just want to have some nostalgic fun with some star wars characters. If you want to torture yourself go for it.

There is a lot of reviews just like that one perhaps not as in depth. CG would never release the actual numbers but after STR and these last few months the new to intermediate players are moving on. I mean vets are moving on because of the issues.
"Eddiemundie;c-1715203" wrote:
"Liath;c-1715193" wrote:
Where are these irrefutable facts of yours? What data do you have regarding player retention rates and how they have changed over time?

Well regardless, i think he has a point that it is ridiculously difficult for a new player to catch up.

Even worse is now with traya and revan, if u are in a young shard and didnt buy revan, u are effectively out of the arena. This is unless u had the foresight to rush for traya farm and unlocked her. Even so, it took my alt (started in dec'17) about 10 months to unlock traya with dedicated farming strategies.

Thanks for the support. I foresee it getting far worse since the holiday season is upon us.

"Kyno;c-1715219" wrote:
"Eddiemundie;c-1715203" wrote:
"Liath;c-1715193" wrote:
Where are these irrefutable facts of yours? What data do you have regarding player retention rates and how they have changed over time?

Well regardless, i think he has a point that it is ridiculously difficult for a new player to catch up.

Even worse is now with traya and revan, if u are in a young shard and didnt buy revan, u are effectively out of the arena. This is unless u had the foresight to rush for traya farm and unlocked her. Even so, it took my alt (started in dec'17) about 10 months to unlock traya with dedicated farming strategies.

But who do they have to catch up to?

They are paired to face players that have been in the game roughly the same time as them.

Or paired with player that have put in a similar amount if development.

Not having revan does not take you out of arena. The top arena spots are always filled by those who are more invested, but people always find a way.
------

Its been said the average life of SWGOH gamers now is between level 40 and 60 levels that's generous

Where?
-----
On my alt I have unlocked all nodes, GW simmable, and was in a guild raiding in less than 6 months, why would it take 2 years to have a shot at any of those toons?

-----
As you said, they have done this. It is easier to get started, and keep going. They have now moved marquees further out so new shards are not so effected by those releases (as an example). I'm sure they have the actual data and are not going to let the pace of the game get those numbers out of balance.

-----

I can yell you from conversations with the dev team that every new game mode and character/faction release leads to a push of new players and/or uptick in player traffic. Most of which have had their own issues, but none the less none have been a PR disaster when you look at the actual data.

Kyno I have accepted that you will almost always cheerlead CG except for the one time with Revan. I like how you and other experienced players are using your alt as a way to validate that it isn't hard for new players. In the very beginning of my post I guess I should have added that to the excel and guide ready gamers when they start. The fact you had to use your alt as a way to defend that new players don't have it so hard proves my point. You are a VET of course you know exactly what you should do for maximum gains right at the gate unlike the regular gamer that has no clue what to do. This game has got to start incorporating a way for new and mid level players to help them that DOESN'T have dollar signs in front of it.

Your also right CG has the data but they aren't going to release the fact that the mid level player base is stagnating and losing ground. EA would have their head. Supercell didn't have to answer to a higher power and could do that and then ask the player base what can we do to turn this around. That is exactly how a game that has been out 3+ years should act. Why I laughed so hard when SC shared there response to EA when EA made overtures about buying SC lineup of games. SC basically said why so you can ruin our game like every other game you touch.

"Commander_Wolffe;c-1715243" wrote:
As a new player, I think the biggest probably is power creep.

As every new release (e.g. Revan, HT, etc.) comes out, it's extremely OP. Unlike with older players, an OP character is only slightly (let's say 5% better for arguments sake) than the last OP character which they've had multiple events/chances to collect.

For a new player, if you miss the OP release on the initial release, then that +5% power difference is more like +25% vs younger inventories. That means new, non-whale/kraken, players are at a much higher disadvantage because these OP releases have such a bigger impact on newer, younger players than with older players who have counter teams, other OPs, more options.

In my shard, Bastilla was release, then GMY, then Revan. These are 3 strong Jedi team members which immediately dominated the squad arena with Jedi meta. While there's still some Empire/Sith in top 20, the Sith is the underdogs unless that player purchased Sith meta or restarted their account until they started with a Sith meta (DN, DS).

In my fleet shard, one guy purchased the HT pack (most of our shard wasn't high enough level for HT marquee), with a g2 Bossk (1 or 2 star) and a 3 star HT, he held the top position for more than a month. His fleet GP is still half of everybody else in the top 25 and he still (months later) is constantly in the top 10 with a 4/5 star HT fighting full 7 star fleets at twice his GP.

The power creep on OP releases affects newer players a lot more than older players. Any new player that is competitive a little will get frustrated that a single release can impact their entire gameplay. For older players, Revan was an OP, but there were many counters and other teams with synergy that could alleviate that. For younger players, there's less options.

The only option for younger players is to spend money - it's full p2p. The new players trying to do f2p are great, but they need to set their expectations that 1 person can buy 1 pack and be unbeatable for weeks or months until that release is put on a hard node that requires months of farming to release.

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint everybody the only way we can hope to affect change and extend the life of this game.
Warp3dM1nd
7 years ago
"casper1jr;c-1715417" wrote:
New players have plenty of chance, I've had a guild for over 2 years and I've watched many noobs gets very strong. As a matter a fact, all characters are capped so if you play long enough you'll catch up to long time players. I also have a few newer players that can score higher in some raids due to them modding better and being the same gear level as me.

So saying that new players don't have a chance is a false statement. Remember, some have spent 3 years grinding and many even took 2 years to unlock Sims in GW. New players have it so much easier in lots of areas of the game but they will never even know that. We were the game testers and we dealt with lots of bugs.

I know my post is all over the place but that's how this game has been. As for the arena, everyone used to complain when rebels ran that place but no one talks about them anymore. It will be the same way next year, new characters, new arena. The game will always change, play for fun and you won't be stressed. If you play to rank then the game won't be as fun.
You are essentially saying since things are easier now for them nothing should change. Applying your logic then the world should freeze right now for our kids because our kids had it easier then us. We had it easier then our parents and so on and so on. That argument isn't a valid argument and never has been since people started using it.

You had one noob do well. We had 2 do well and roughly 100 quit as I said in my original post. If we are going to use what you posted as a poster for why nothing should change. Well then my number would show a poster that says something clearly should change. Ultimately neither one means anything but don't try to validate your opinion by saying 1 person did alright

"DarkHelmet1138;c-1715459" wrote:
It isn't that hard for newer players to catch up. In fact, CG made it easier with the release of revan

While revan was ptp first go, a player starting out could get him by the time he returns. Yes, it's a grind. Three hard nodes and two cantina nodes. But, they are on nodes that are farmable pretty early on. So probably 6 mo for a new player to get revan depending on the timing of the events. Yeah some will just miss the event and that sucks for them but it can't be helped.

So with a fully geared revan team, new players are competitive in arena. Can do pretty big dmg in hstr, can solo haat. Not sure how it does on rancor but a second solo squad is pretty easy to get. Granted revan is just a p2 team so you may have to get into a guild that has a few older players to actually complete hstr.

Tw, ga, and tb will take a bit longer to bit longer to be at the top since they req multiple teams. But within 6 months you can be beating content at all areas of the game. So it's hardly 2 years.

I'm not sure if you read what you posted or not. Let's say Revan comes around in 6 months sure you could easily farm up the Toons needed. Still have to gear them to beat the event and that is one event in 6 months.

So 6 months roughly for Revan to farm and gear to beat the event. Now let's add another 6 for Chewie, Thrawn, CLS etc. That's not even counting the squads you have to farm AND gear to get the Toons to be able to do those events. I could list the squads and gear level required to help get those legendary nut you already know how many is needed. Tbh it takes roughly 4 to 6 months to unlock most teams if RNG is in your favor but then you have to gear them and deal with the purposeful bottlenecks. So again it is taking far to long for new to mid level players to their feet up off the ground.
LiathSW
7 years ago
It's all around and you are a blind man if you don't see it.

I am no type of man. The plural of anecdote is not data. And I am asking specifically about how the retention rates have *changed over time.* Of course many of the players who start this game do not continue. That has been true since the beginning. Not every game turns out to be a good fit for every potential player.
icanectc
7 years ago
While you kinda go on a rant there at the end, you do bring up a good point about scalability. Even MMOs after years of existence allow new players to start at max level provide decent gear etc to help ease the transition. While im not necessarily in the opinion this game is at the point where peeps are heavily outed and needs a buff to get them started one day it could happen. Nothing would prevent a brand new player from farming kotor toons and getting revan immediately before cls jtr chewie etc.

Fact is new players can build squads anyway they want there isn't a specific progression required of them. Though us players artificially create one.

My buddy started playing in October when revan dropped and was in an entirely new shard first place was Phoenix. By Dec there was 20 revans running horrible jedi squads. So I'm not sure we are at the place where new players need help. Cg and ea definitely have metrics that know when people fall off vs stay playing and in willing to bet it's within normal parameters. Otherwise we would see something being done. If anything they are creating more end game content. Proving it's player base is driving them to create this.
LiathSW
7 years ago
Where are these irrefutable facts of yours? What data do you have regarding player retention rates and how they have changed over time?
eddiemundie
7 years ago
"Liath;c-1715193" wrote:
Where are these irrefutable facts of yours? What data do you have regarding player retention rates and how they have changed over time?

Well regardless, i think he has a point that it is ridiculously difficult for a new player to catch up.

Even worse is now with traya and revan, if u are in a young shard and didnt buy revan, u are effectively out of the arena. This is unless u had the foresight to rush for traya farm and unlocked her. Even so, it took my alt (started in dec'17) about 10 months to unlock traya with dedicated farming strategies.
NyKynoe
7 years ago
"Eddiemundie;c-1715203" wrote:
"Liath;c-1715193" wrote:
Where are these irrefutable facts of yours? What data do you have regarding player retention rates and how they have changed over time?

Well regardless, i think he has a point that it is ridiculously difficult for a new player to catch up.

Even worse is now with traya and revan, if u are in a young shard and didnt buy revan, u are effectively out of the arena. This is unless u had the foresight to rush for traya farm and unlocked her. Even so, it took my alt (started in dec'17) about 10 months to unlock traya with dedicated farming strategies.

But who do they have to catch up to?

They are paired to face players that have been in the game roughly the same time as them.

Or paired with player that have put in a similar amount if development.

Not having revan does not take you out of arena. The top arena spots are always filled by those who are more invested, but people always find a way.
------

Its been said the average life of SWGOH gamers now is between level 40 and 60 levels that's generous

Where?
-----
On my alt I have unlocked all nodes, GW simmable, and was in a guild raiding in less than 6 months, why would it take 2 years to have a shot at any of those toons?

-----
As you said, they have done this. It is easier to get started, and keep going. They have now moved marquees further out so new shards are not so effected by those releases (as an example). I'm sure they have the actual data and are not going to let the pace of the game get those numbers out of balance.

-----

I can yell you from conversations with the dev team that every new game mode and character/faction release leads to a push of new players and/or uptick in player traffic. Most of which have had their own issues, but none the less none have been a PR disaster when you look at the actual data.
casper1jr
7 years ago
New players have plenty of chance, I've had a guild for over 2 years and I've watched many noobs gets very strong. As a matter a fact, all characters are capped so if you play long enough you'll catch up to long time players. I also have a few newer players that can score higher in some raids due to them modding better and being the same gear level as me.

So saying that new players don't have a chance is a false statement. Remember, some have spent 3 years grinding and many even took 2 years to unlock Sims in GW. New players have it so much easier in lots of areas of the game but they will never even know that. We were the game testers and we dealt with lots of bugs.

I know my post is all over the place but that's how this game has been. As for the arena, everyone used to complain when rebels ran that place but no one talks about them anymore. It will be the same way next year, new characters, new arena. The game will always change, play for fun and you won't be stressed. If you play to rank then the game won't be as fun.
DarkHelmet1138
7 years ago
It isn't that hard for newer players to catch up. In fact, CG made it easier with the release of revan.

While revan was ptp first go, a player starting out could get him by the time he returns. Yes, it's a grind. Three hard nodes and two cantina nodes. But, they are on nodes that are farmable pretty early on. So probably 6 mo for a new player to get revan depending on the timing of the events. Yeah some will just miss the event and that sucks for them but it can't be helped.

So with a fully geared revan team, new players are competitive in arena. Can do pretty big dmg in hstr, can solo haat. Not sure how it does on rancor but a second solo squad is pretty easy to get. Granted revan is just a p2 team so you may have to get into a guild that has a few older players to actually complete hstr.

Tw, ga, and tb will take a bit longer to bit longer to be at the top since they req multiple teams. But within 6 months you can be beating content at all areas of the game. So it's hardly 2 years.