Will Thawn beat rex/chaze?

"sjkerhfgdjhd;c-1128170" wrote:

"Nebulous;c-1128129" wrote:

"Pyrefly;c-1128105" wrote:

"J_Starseed;c-1128061" wrote:

"Atlas1;c-1127514" wrote:

"Berimbolo;c-1127465" wrote:
Once Baze is fractured the team should fall apart, that's my guess

I think so too, but Tarkin will have to be fast enough to get fracture off. Sith Assassin teams under zMaul will help DN get his CD +1 off. Can Thrawn under Tarkin outspeed that?

R2

I already mentioned R2, but I was corrected: R2 has a base speed of 157. Thrawn under Tarkin has a base speed of 180.

Ya this does require the Use of tarkin and I know that using ackbar, r2 will have +2 speed over tarkin/thrawn combo. Though I feel ackbar will weaken the team worse than tarkin does. And cuz it's just 2 speed, mods make the difference. This could change if ackbar gets a zeta for his lead.

So I really do feel that thrawn will be moving quicker, at least for the foreseeable future.

Rex lead. Thrawn will likely crit a couple times while applying fracture and then the whole enemy team will go before your next toon. GK will be taunting and probably have foresight. If they are running Nihilus you are going to lose a bunch of special abilities. If they are running R2 instead GK will for sure have foresight and dispelling his taunt still won't let you target anyone but tanks.

There are ways around this all, but with Tarkin lead, Thrawn, and Shoretrooper tanking you are going to have to leave out Palpatine, Nihilus, or Deathtrooper. Palpatine seems most likely to go, but he is the one that has the offence up you wanted to protect from Baze, so Baze is still doing his job while fractured.

I think Thrawn is good, better than I actually expected. I think he is going to give Empire a fairly reliable way to beat triple cleanse on offence, and I think he is going to absolutely wreck Jedi. But I don't think he is going to stop triple cleanse on defence at all, and I don't think he is going to replace them as meta.

That's a great post and one that specifically answers my OP. Thanks for that.

"sjkerhfgdjhd;c-1128170" wrote:

"Nebulous;c-1128129" wrote:

"Pyrefly;c-1128105" wrote:

"J_Starseed;c-1128061" wrote:

"Atlas1;c-1127514" wrote:

"Berimbolo;c-1127465" wrote:
Once Baze is fractured the team should fall apart, that's my guess

I think so too, but Tarkin will have to be fast enough to get fracture off. Sith Assassin teams under zMaul will help DN get his CD +1 off. Can Thrawn under Tarkin outspeed that?

R2

I already mentioned R2, but I was corrected: R2 has a base speed of 157. Thrawn under Tarkin has a base speed of 180.

Ya this does require the Use of tarkin and I know that using ackbar, r2 will have +2 speed over tarkin/thrawn combo. Though I feel ackbar will weaken the team worse than tarkin does. And cuz it's just 2 speed, mods make the difference. This could change if ackbar gets a zeta for his lead.

So I really do feel that thrawn will be moving quicker, at least for the foreseeable future.

Rex lead. Thrawn will likely crit a couple times while applying fracture and then the whole enemy team will go before your next toon. GK will be taunting and probably have foresight. If they are running Nihilus you are going to lose a bunch of special abilities. If they are running R2 instead GK will for sure have foresight and dispelling his taunt still won't let you target anyone but tanks.

There are ways around this all, but with Tarkin lead, Thrawn, and Shoretrooper tanking you are going to have to leave out Palpatine, Nihilus, or Deathtrooper. Palpatine seems most likely to go, but he is the one that has the offence up you wanted to protect from Baze, so Baze is still doing his job while fractured.

I think Thrawn is good, better than I actually expected. I think he is going to give Empire a fairly reliable way to beat triple cleanse on offence, and I think he is going to absolutely wreck Jedi. But I don't think he is going to stop triple cleanse on defence at all, and I don't think he is going to replace them as meta.

What good is baze when he is fractured? This is huge. I can't stress this enough. This will be a 5 v 4 contest after the first turn. Baze will be ignored for as long as possible.

Considering triple cleanse has no real way to apply debuffs, dn can't guarantee +1 cd to anyone (except maybe thrawn if zDN). Baze brought the debuffs but is fractured.

There will be no initial taunt on gk as he will have pushed beyond 100% and taken his first turn. So attacks are fair game

There are, of course, plenty of scenarios you and I can go back and forth on. You're correct on the team build though: tarkin, thrawn, dt, shore +1. Probably dn since his basic can dispel and his +1 stacks with dt +1.

It seems like most of the Thrawn builds I've seen rely on going first. There are already teams that can beat Rex triple cleanse on offense... but if Thawn doesn't hold up any better on defense then is it really that great?

Relying on going first using Tarkin as a lead means that a (Z)Maul team will still go faster (especially with Sith Assassin).

You can already beat Rex/cleanse teams with a (Z)Vader or Nihilus team. What would a Tarkin/Thrawn team do that those teams can't already do?

Having not played with Thrawn yet (obviously) I can't answer that for sure... but the question that should be asked isn't "Can Thrawn beat Rex?", it is "Is Thrawn better as an anti-Rex than the options that already exist?".

"Xetal;c-1129046" wrote:


Having not played with Thrawn yet (obviously) I can't answer that for sure... but the question that should be asked isn't "Can Thrawn beat Rex?", it is "Is Thrawn better as an anti-Rex than the options that already exist?".

or perhaps as has come to light earlier in this thread.....is thrawn a better option than DN under a rex lead??

"Rapid;c-1129068" wrote:

"Xetal;c-1129046" wrote:


Having not played with Thrawn yet (obviously) I can't answer that for sure... but the question that should be asked isn't "Can Thrawn beat Rex?", it is "Is Thrawn better as an anti-Rex than the options that already exist?".

or perhaps as has come to light earlier in this thread.....is thrawn a better option than DN under a rex lead??

I'm beginning to think wedge lead trawn Ahsoka Biggs and r-2 will replace triple cleanse teams for light side players. R-2 will stealth all but Thrawn and then he will fracture. Now you are facing a counter attacking Thrawn and a bunch of stealthed DPS.

"Olddumper;c-1129093" wrote:

"Rapid;c-1129068" wrote:

"Xetal;c-1129046" wrote:


Having not played with Thrawn yet (obviously) I can't answer that for sure... but the question that should be asked isn't "Can Thrawn beat Rex?", it is "Is Thrawn better as an anti-Rex than the options that already exist?".

or perhaps as has come to light earlier in this thread.....is thrawn a better option than DN under a rex lead??

I'm beginning to think wedge lead trawn Ahsoka Biggs and r-2 will replace triple cleanse teams for light side players. R-2 will stealth all but Thrawn and then he will fracture. Now you are facing a counter attacking Thrawn and a bunch of stealthed DPS.

Just remember that Thrawn only has 50% counter without a zeta on his unique.

"Pyrefly;c-1129097" wrote:

"Olddumper;c-1129093" wrote:

"Rapid;c-1129068" wrote:

"Xetal;c-1129046" wrote:


Having not played with Thrawn yet (obviously) I can't answer that for sure... but the question that should be asked isn't "Can Thrawn beat Rex?", it is "Is Thrawn better as an anti-Rex than the options that already exist?".

or perhaps as has come to light earlier in this thread.....is thrawn a better option than DN under a rex lead??

I'm beginning to think wedge lead trawn Ahsoka Biggs and r-2 will replace triple cleanse teams for light side players. R-2 will stealth all but Thrawn and then he will fracture. Now you are facing a counter attacking Thrawn and a bunch of stealthed DPS.

Just remember that Thrawn only has 50% counter without a zeta on his unique.

Well that would obviously be a whale squad since most of us can get Ahsoka to a meaningful level yet.

You would also need super mods to make them fast enough.

"sjkerhfgdjhd;c-1129104" wrote:

"Nebulous;c-1128747" wrote:

"sjkerhfgdjhd;c-1128170" wrote:

"Nebulous;c-1128129" wrote:

"Pyrefly;c-1128105" wrote:

"J_Starseed;c-1128061" wrote:

"Atlas1;c-1127514" wrote:

"Berimbolo;c-1127465" wrote:
Once Baze is fractured the team should fall apart, that's my guess

I think so too, but Tarkin will have to be fast enough to get fracture off. Sith Assassin teams under zMaul will help DN get his CD +1 off. Can Thrawn under Tarkin outspeed that?

R2

I already mentioned R2, but I was corrected: R2 has a base speed of 157. Thrawn under Tarkin has a base speed of 180.

Ya this does require the Use of tarkin and I know that using ackbar, r2 will have +2 speed over tarkin/thrawn combo. Though I feel ackbar will weaken the team worse than tarkin does. And cuz it's just 2 speed, mods make the difference. This could change if ackbar gets a zeta for his lead.

So I really do feel that thrawn will be moving quicker, at least for the foreseeable future.

Rex lead. Thrawn will likely crit a couple times while applying fracture and then the whole enemy team will go before your next toon. GK will be taunting and probably have foresight. If they are running Nihilus you are going to lose a bunch of special abilities. If they are running R2 instead GK will for sure have foresight and dispelling his taunt still won't let you target anyone but tanks.

There are ways around this all, but with Tarkin lead, Thrawn, and Shoretrooper tanking you are going to have to leave out Palpatine, Nihilus, or Deathtrooper. Palpatine seems most likely to go, but he is the one that has the offence up you wanted to protect from Baze, so Baze is still doing his job while fractured.

I think Thrawn is good, better than I actually expected. I think he is going to give Empire a fairly reliable way to beat triple cleanse on offence, and I think he is going to absolutely wreck Jedi. But I don't think he is going to stop triple cleanse on defence at all, and I don't think he is going to replace them as meta.

What good is baze when he is fractured? This is huge. I can't stress this enough. This will be a 5 v 4 contest after the first turn. Baze will be ignored for as long as possible.

Considering triple cleanse has no real way to apply debuffs, dn can't guarantee +1 cd to anyone (except maybe thrawn if zDN). Baze brought the debuffs but is fractured.

There will be no initial taunt on gk as he will have pushed beyond 100% and taken his first turn. So attacks are fair game

There are, of course, plenty of scenarios you and I can go back and forth on. You're correct on the team build though: tarkin, thrawn, dt, shore +1. Probably dn since his basic can dispel and his +1 stacks with dt +1.

The reason Baze is still preventing buffs while fractured is that in order to fracture him you had to kick your best buffer from your team. And is is not a 5v4 while Baze is fractured, it is effectively 4v4. The only AOE a triple cleanse team has is Nihilus or R2D2, and R2 may not even use his until after the fracture is over. That means that Thrawn is just sitting there losing turn meter from your own teams specials, and the instant Thrawn is back in the fight Baze is able to start countering, regain taunt, and heal back up any health he may be missing. Fracture does more damage to the enemy team than your own, but you can't just pretend that losing a bunch of turn meter doesn't hurt your team.

Next, while Nihilus won't guarantee any specific person gets their cooldowns increased he will still average over half your non Thrawn team getting shut down.

I also question if GK loses taunt the instant he gets his next turn. The Royal Guard has the exact same wording on his unique and his taunt lasts until the end of his next full turn, not just to the end of his current turn.

As I said, Thrawn is good, but I think some people are trying to build him into some sort of instant win button when he just isn't. If you have worse mods or bad RNG I think it is entirely possible that a triple cleanse team could win on defence, while the reverse is many times less likely.

GK will lose his taunt after he gets 100% tm from Rex and takes his first action.

Yes that build has only 2 aoe for thrawn to counter attack.

R2 will probably try to target baze with his special so baze won't get foresight or advantage. We will be forced to attack gk. There is dt who can dispel all the stealth so just the 1-turn taunt from gk will prevent the other heroes from being hit. No big deal. Two tanks make a HUGE difference.

I'm not sure what you mean by I have to kick the best buffer from my team? There is a 5th flex spot. So I don't really understand.

I think you don't realize how strong baze is. When baze can't do what he needs to do, it will be bad times. Turning off baze stops so much. An triple cleanse with r2 has no way to dispel any buffs from your opponent. That is huge. Baze provides 2 sources of taunt/buff removal that is not provided for in the rest of the team. Look at everything baze provides and then imagine how well you will perform when it's turned off.

I'm still planning DT 1st and then Thrawn.

Increase cooldowns. Then fracture Baze, debuff with Tarkin, buff immunity GK with Krennic, Tarkin will go again from 90 percent TM gain and remove 50 percent TM and then DN will rip cooldowns again. Now their cooldowns are at 2. Gk is buffless and Baze is fractured.

Krennic still can stagger them to reduce TM again and DT will daze stun Chirrut and daze Rex. It's all roses.

"Pyrefly;c-1128104" wrote:

"J_Starseed;c-1128059" wrote:

"MadMalgusReturns;c-1126890" wrote:
I don't see him being better than the Rex, Chaze, GK, DN. Can't fracture GK on the first turn.

Fracture Baze, shock GK.

Fracture is 4 hits. Chances are, one of those will crit and cause GK to taunt. You can shock him, but he'll already be taunting.

Fracture is special damage which has a base crit chance of < 13% so I wouldn't be so sure of that.