Arena mods question

"Metsuga;c-1264533" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1263983" wrote:

"Huatimus;c-1263974" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1263957" wrote:
Crit Damage is better than speed for a lot of characters.

It isn't that hard to get 80 speed from primaries and secondaries, which means that 200 speed is kind of a baseline speed in arena.

At 200 speed that someone's base speed is 120. A speed set would give 12 speed.

12 speed is roughly 1/16 of that toon's total speed.

Assuming you use a crit damage triangle no matter what, a crit damage set will take you from 186% crit damage to 216% crit damage, a 5/31 increase in damage overall (pretty close to 1/6).

Now critting isn't guaranteed so we need to take crit chance into account. In order to determine the breakpoint we'll make an equation:
5/31X=1/16
x= 38.75/100 or 38.75% Crit Chance

So a character will do more damage with a crit damage set than a speed set once their crit chance breaks 38.75%.

Now this is assuming they are a 120 speed character with 80 speed from mods. The higher the base speed the character has, the more speed the speed set will give them, likewise the lower the speed from mods, the higher the % increase will be from the speed set.

So my first example was kind of a comparison based on what I would call common base speeds and mod speeds, So let's make an extreme example of a scenario that maximizes the speed set's usefulness:

TFP has a base speed of 170. Let's assume he only has a speed arrow so is only getting 30 speed from mods and is a 200 speed overall.
The speed set will give him 17 speed, which is an increase of 1/11 (rounded up, it's actually closer to 1/12)
So we get the formula:

5/31x = 1/11 which works out to 56.36% crit

So what does this tell us? That most characters will do better damage with a crit damage set than a speed set at around 40% crit, and that all characters will do better damage with a crit damage set than a speed set at 57% crit.

And for a final example, let's minimize the speed set's effectiveness:

Let's pick a toon with an 89 base speed and 175 speed from mods (max not counting set bonus as far as I am aware). That's 8 speed from that speed set. 8 is roughly 1/33 of the 264 speed the guy has from base and primary/secondary speeds.

5/31x = 1/33 which works out to 18.78% crit.

So if you have uber speed mods, there's practically no character that would do better with a speed set than a Crit damage set.

Your Maths as sound as it may be does not take into account the actual effects of going first. If my R2 is 1 speed faster than yours and stun yours first, how much damage do you think your R2 is doing? If my CLS goes first and removes 100% TM from your CLS, does it matter if I'm doing 20% less damage? Or if my Thrawn fractures first, or DN increase Cooldown first? The topic at hand now is Arena mods. If you're looking at maximising damage from mods, that is a lot more applicable for Raids.

You are absolutely correct that it ignores first turn priority. Personally, I have found that even if my first turn goes completely 100% wrong, I can still come back. I don't think going first is quite the priority/advantage it used to be. It's big, but if it takes you 3 turns longer to kill me than it does for me to kill you I still win, even if you steal my first turn and get one more turn than me besides that due to your speed (which is all the speed set COULD get you, a 2 turn advantage).

If we were talking about speed in general vs other secondaries, then yes, but as far as the speed set goes in arena... the crit damage set is still usually better.

Not necessarily. Especially if your target has crit immunity. But arena has alot if rng going so either way, high speed or high dmg/average speed. Both will work just fine.

It's true there are exceptions. I'd say the higher up in arena you climb and the older your shard is, the more the value of the crit damage set rises. (basically because the value of ~15 speed decreases as your shard matures due to more high speed secondaries.

Perhaps a better way to put it would have been: Going first is usually a much bigger advantage for the person than the AI. In low level or unmatured arena, a speed set carries a very large value, but as your shard matures, it will slowly lose it's value compared to a crit damge set... which is ironic considering it's usually one of the last sets you get.

Again, the whole gist of my math was based around damage dealers. Members meant to fill other roles should be modded according to their kit.

"RacerDejak;c-1263848" wrote:

2. On cls, there is difference between using speed mod or crit damage mod. I have speedy cls with 270ish speed, but hit like wet noodle. On the other side, i have crit damage n crit chance set with low speed around 210 ish. I personally like cls with high damage setting.

I have 2 health sets and 2 speed sets with mid-teens speed secondaries on my arena team. My Baze set is more of low speed and higher prot/health. I really like the idea of having my CLS hit harder, which is exactly what you hit on Racer. I feel like he could hit a lot harder if I put 4x CD and 2x CC/Off/Pot on him, but I don't want him to be too slow to be viable in arena.

"scuba;c-1263856" wrote:
Speed set is only 10%
So character with low base speed may only get 10 or 12 speed boost.

Is the 10% from his base speed or is that taken after all the speed mods on him? I haven't noticed.

"Huatimus;c-1263873" wrote:
All bonus is calculated off base stats. Only completed gear levels become incorporated into base stats.

I didn't know that. I guess it's not as big of a boost as I thought. Thanks!

I'm thinking about just keeping the speed mod set and putting a couple offense mods on him once I can get some good speed mods on him. There's just so much to farm lol.

That's pretty smart. I only have his IBAT zeta'd, but that's definitely a good setup to shoot for!

I have found a better way to describe why the crit damage set is better than the speed set for damage dealers in general.

The average base speed is something around 135 speed and the average offense is something around 2800.

So a speed secondary increase of 15 is a 1/9 increase in speed compared to base. That is a fair chunk from a mediocre secondary. An offense increase of 100 is a 1/28 increase in offense, which is a very minor chunk from a higher end secondary. Speed secondaries are always better than damage secondaries.

Not so when you look at the set value. The % increase in damage far outweighs the percent increase in speed at those higher values. You get a 1/6 * crit chance increase in damage vs a 1/12 increase in speed (at about 80 speed from primary and secondaries) or less with really good speed secondaries. That's not much speed from mods considering the max, and it is pretty easy to stack some high crit chance as well which means that usually the ratio will be in favor of crit damage in high end arena.

No matter what people say, the real important thing in arena is damage over time. How quickly can you deal out damage. Speed is by far the best way to increase your damage as far as secondaries go (which is why people always say speed is king), with a distant tie for second featuring offense and crit chance. But when you look at the %s on the crit damage set vs the speed set, it's apparent how much better it is since both parts of this ratio share equal impact.

damage/time

"Woodroward;c-1268054" wrote:
I have found a better way to describe why the crit damage set is better than the speed set for damage dealers in general.

The average base speed is something around 135 speed and the average offense is something around 2800.

So a speed secondary increase of 15 is a 1/9 increase in speed compared to base. That is a fair chunk from a mediocre secondary. An offense increase of 100 is a 1/28 increase in offense, which is a very minor chunk from a higher end secondary. Speed secondaries are always better than damage secondaries.

Not so when you look at the set value. The % increase in damage far outweighs the percent increase in speed at those higher values. You get a 1/6 * crit chance increase in damage vs a 1/12 increase in speed (at about 80 speed from primary and secondaries) or less with really good speed secondaries. That's not much speed from mods considering the max, and it is pretty easy to stack some high crit chance as well which means that usually the ratio will be in favor of crit damage in high end arena.

No matter what people say, the real important thing in arena is damage over time. How quickly can you deal out damage. Speed is by far the best way to increase your damage as far as secondaries go (which is why people always say speed is king), with a distant tie for second featuring offense and crit chance. But when you look at the %s on the crit damage set vs the speed set, it's apparent how much better it is since both parts of this ratio share equal impact.

damage/time

Well put. It's too bad those critical damage triangles don't exist with speed secondaries on them. If they do exist, I refuse to believe it until I finally get one lol.

I'm curious though, how does this actually fair against teams who have someone like GK that give crit immunity? It seems that you really need to have speed then to overcome the lack of critting.

"Silky;c-1268269" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1268054" wrote:
I have found a better way to describe why the crit damage set is better than the speed set for damage dealers in general.

The average base speed is something around 135 speed and the average offense is something around 2800.

So a speed secondary increase of 15 is a 1/9 increase in speed compared to base. That is a fair chunk from a mediocre secondary. An offense increase of 100 is a 1/28 increase in offense, which is a very minor chunk from a higher end secondary. Speed secondaries are always better than damage secondaries.

Not so when you look at the set value. The % increase in damage far outweighs the percent increase in speed at those higher values. You get a 1/6 * crit chance increase in damage vs a 1/12 increase in speed (at about 80 speed from primary and secondaries) or less with really good speed secondaries. That's not much speed from mods considering the max, and it is pretty easy to stack some high crit chance as well which means that usually the ratio will be in favor of crit damage in high end arena.

No matter what people say, the real important thing in arena is damage over time. How quickly can you deal out damage. Speed is by far the best way to increase your damage as far as secondaries go (which is why people always say speed is king), with a distant tie for second featuring offense and crit chance. But when you look at the %s on the crit damage set vs the speed set, it's apparent how much better it is since both parts of this ratio share equal impact.

damage/time

Well put. It's too bad those critical damage triangles don't exist with speed secondaries on them. If they do exist, I refuse to believe it until I finally get one lol.

I'm curious though, how does this actually fair against teams who have someone like GK that give crit immunity? It seems that you really need to have speed then to overcome the lack of critting.

Nah, the crit damage is still better. Crit immunity isn't permanent and doesn't apply to GK himself so is pretty much a non-issue. Is there a fair amount of crit hate in arena? For sure, but crits are still how you kill people, so in the end it doesn't matter.

Speed sets are entirely shard and team comp dependent. For example...I need my R2 to go first. I slowed my leia down by removing her speed set(she benefites greatly from one) and put a crit damage set on her.

The reason for this is I need thrawn to go before her to fracture/debuff the opponents tank so she can attack someone else.

Vs an enemy R2, I'm stuck attacking that tank anyways so once again the crit damage set allows me to eliminate their tank quicker.

So in summary, and on my shard, Luke, DN, Thrawn, and R2 have speed sets. Leia has a crit damage. It works right now due to what my shardmates run.

Pre CLS, I ran Zader and only SA and Thrawn had speed sets. DN had health and defense, shore had health, and Vader had crit damage. Different mod sets for different teams and opponents. General guidelines always apply but circumstances dictate actual mod placements.

It depends on your shard and also character use cases. For instance, with Zolo it makes more sense to use CD/CC sets because it brings out the best in him - whereas having him go faster with speed sets will neuter his killer damage which kind of defeats the purpose of using him.