Mod Question: Offense v. Critical Damage

"Anakin_Skywalker;c-1431125" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1431017" wrote:
There's really 2 things to consider in Crit damage vs Offense mods: Crit Chance, and the value of your offense primaries/secondaries.

Firstly, in no situation (outside of a Nihilus lead) is an offense triangle better than a crit damage triangle. So to begin with the damages we are comparing are 186% crit damage vs. 216% crit damage, a difference of 30% crit damage. 100/(186/30) = a 16.12% increase in damage from crit damage mods. This is modified by your crit chance, but we'll get back to that.

The value of an offense set decreases as you pile more and more offense primaries and secondaries on that toon. To begin with, we are guaranteed to have at least one offense primary. This means that our initial offense before the set is counted is 105.88 100/(105.88/10) and is actually a 9.45% increase in damage. This means that our breakeven point before more offense primaries and secondaries are added in is 100/(16.12/9.45) = 58.8% crit chance.

Conversely, as each offense primary and secondary gets added it increases the damage that the crit damage set will provide, compared to the offense set where each one lowers the value of the damage.

Now if we are analyzing the difference between these two, it is probably because we are trying to maximize their damage, which means we are going to have a lot more offense on them than just the one primary. So let's see where the breakpoint lies when we have 3 offense primaries and a crit damage triangle: 100/((16.12 * (105.88/11.76 +1))/(100/(117.64/10))) 16.12 * ((105.88/11.76)/100 + 1) = 17.57% This is the value of a crit damage set with 3 offense primaries and a crit damage triangle. 100/(117.64/10)= 8.50 This is the value of the offense set with 3 offense primaries. So the breakeven point for crit chance with 3 offense primaries is 100/(17.57/8.5) = 48.37% crit chance to break even.

So lets do some numbers here to see what maximum possible offense primary and secondaries with a crit damage triangle will get us as the breakeven point. I will make some assumptions here. Firstly I will use 3000 damage as the base since that seems pretty average. Secondly I will assume that around 150 is the max flat offense secondary since I haven't seen much higher than that. Finally I will assume that 1.6% is around the max %offense secondary since I haven't seen much higher than that.

So at maximum offense, the offense set would make 3000 * 1.2244 + 6(150) + (3000 * .1) = 4873.2 offense. 100/(4873.2/300)= 6.156% increase in damage.

At maximum offense, the crit damage set would be (3000 * 1.2244 + 900)/(3000 * 1.0588) * 16.12 = 23.21% increase in damage.

So finally, 100/(23.21/6.156)= 26.52% crit for the breakeven point in this scenario.

What to takeaway from this: Offense mods are better in the beginning when you don't have a lot of crit chance or offense secondaries, but as you get more and bigger offense and crit chance secondaries, crit damage becomes better.

To put it another way, offense mods are better when you have a young account, but crit damage mods are likely to be better if you have an older account.

@Woodroward My math was not wrong one bit, but knowledge on mods might be. So offense bonuses from offense set is not % of %?
That said, 10% offense bonus from the set is 10% of no-mod damage, right?

Well then I gotta fix the whole math because the base assumption was wrong.

1) No crit damage primary mod
Base Damage×1.1 +Extra Damage from miscellaneous offense primary/secondary+ Base Damage×1.1×CC×0.5+ Extra Miscellaneous offense×CCx0.5
(Offense set)

vs.
(I'll call miscellaneous offense up from primary ^ secondaries as 'Extra')

(CD set)
Base Damage+Extra+(Base Damage+Extra)×0.8×CC

(Offense set)-(CD set)
= 0.1 Base Dmg - (Base dmg × CC× 0.25) -(0.3 ×Extra×CC)
ok so we can't determine a clear breakeven point. It not only depends on CC but also on Extra miscellaneous damage from primary/secondary.

However if 'Extra' is near 0, the result will be near as I calculated previously.
40% breakeven point for No CD primary triangle characters/46.xx% breakeven point for 36% CD primary triangle characters.

0.1-0.25CC-0.3CC × EP >0
(EP is the % of extra dmg out of original dmg. If it's 5.88%, the figure is 0.0588)

0.1 > (0.25+0.3EP)CC
CC <0.1/(0.25+0.3EP)
since the the addition of 0.3EP trivially increased the divider, the breakeven point will clearly bea little bit less than 40%.
So maybe 39.xx% mostly.

The case for crit dmg primary triangle is almost same as above.

CC <0.1/(0.214+0.3EP)
Again the breakeven point will be subtly lower than 46.73%. Somewhere 45~46% most likely.

Never said your math was wrong, just contributed what I knew to the conversation. Might have actually written the formulas wrong but my math is solid. It's based on a % of what you would see in a match rather than on what they call 100%

Like our 100% is really 105.88 % so adding 10% to make it hit 115.88% is not a 10% increase in damage, it's a 9.45% increase in damage.

Similarly we have 186% crit damage with a triangle. The set won't increase our damage by 30%, our damage will increase by 16.12% * our crit chance.

I mean you can base your math around what they call 100%, but it won't translate into what you're expecting in the match.

The long drawn out but entirely accurate formula on how to compare is as follows:
in match effects
crit damage set stats
offense set stats
100 / ((100 / (186 / 30)) * (100 / (Base offense - Applicable damage from Current gear) * (1 + total %offense from primaries and secondaries: expressed as a decimal) + total flat offense secondaries + Applicable damage from Current gear) / ((Base Offense - Applicable Damage from Current gear) * 105.88 + Applicable damage from current gear)) / ((100/(1 - (Base Offense - Applicable damage from current gear) * (1 + total % offense from primaries and secondaries: expressed as a decimal) + total flat offense + (base offense * .1) + Applicable damage from Current gear) / ((Base offense - Applicable damage from current gear) * 105.88 + Applicable damage from current gear))) - %Crit Chance increase from Buffs and Abilities = Critical chance breakpoint

Applicable damage from current gear is either special or physical damage on gear that you have equipped that you can still examine. Which one to subtract and then re-add depends on which type of damage the character uses.

When it comes down to it, you can't just analyze crit damage mods vs. offense mods, too many variables are left out that can prove the math you get by looking at them in a sandbox wrong. We have to examine each set of mods individually to see which is better. There is only one blanket rule for crit damage vs offense mods: any leader or other abilities/buffs that that end up giving +30% crit chance or more automatically make crit damage better.

If the crit damage set of mods you are examining has a crit chance above what the breakpoint is when combined with your character's base crit chance, then it is better than the offense set you were comparing it to as far as total damage output goes. If it is below it, the offense is better. If it is an exact match, then neither is better.

EDIT: corrected in game effects positioning and importance, tweaked the math, explained the formula better.

It would be:

Offense bonus vs cd increase times cc chance

So 10% offense bonus < 30% cd increase above ~33.334%

With crit immunity almost everywhere now I think offense is more relevant more base damage. But it’s just choice

@Mobewan - thank you! That was a clear and succinct explanation. I appreciate it!

I haven't unlocked crit damage mods. Way too much to do for jawas to be worked on. I have found that modding a toon like wedge or Raid han with an offense set with 2 offense primaries and a crit damage triangle does basically the same damage in the end

(100/214) * 100% is about 46.73%.

So to sum it up:
1) your triangle primary =/= CD
then 40% is the turning point.
If your overall CC is over 40%, CD set is better. If lower, Offense set is better

2) your triangle primary = 36% CD
then 46.73% is the turning point.
If your overall CC is over 46.73%, CD set us better. If lower, Offense set is better


3) your triangle primary = 1~4* CD primary,
then somewhere between 40% and 46.73% is your turning point.

Which mean for characters like R2, Offense set is better than CD set, unless when under Jedi Rey lead. And those characters who rely on special damage, generally special CC is tad lower than physical CC so offense mod for them as well.

"DedrickRogue;c-1430634" wrote:

"Anakin_Skywalker;c-1430620" wrote:
(100/214) * 100% is about 46.73%.

So to sum it up:
1) your triangle primary =/= CD
then 40% is the turning point.
If your overall CC is over 40%, CD set is better. If lower, Offense set is better

2) your triangle primary = 36% CD
then 46.73% is the turning point.
If your overall CC is over 46.73%, CD set us better. If lower, Offense set is better


3) your triangle primary = 1~4* CD primary,
then somewhere between 40% and 46.73% is your turning point.

I'm not exactly the best at math, but I think your numbers are reversed.

You're saying assuming an even potential Offense, if you deal more Crit Damage, you need a higher Crit Chance to break even, which strikes me as backwards. You'd be able to Crit hit less often since the extra 36% Crit damage would make up for some missed critical hits, not the opposite.

Either I'm reading this wrong or you were supposed to subtract the 6.73% from 40, not add it.

Sorry but the math is right. cd primary makes cd set less worthy becuz 30% is not 30% of original cd. (not %of %) it's just +30%

I'm not good at explaining things plain and simple when the reality is not, and above explanation is the easiest way i could do
I did my best explaining it, so if you don't get it sorry I can't help that's my limit

@DedrickRogue I undestand it could be counterintuitive but it's not wrong.
Best thing I can suggest is either follow the math or this:
As I said, CD bonus is not % of %
so when increased from 150% to 180%(20% increase) it's relatively a bigger impact than when boosted from 186% to 216%. (16.13% increase).
So in the latter case (with cd primary), apparently cd set gives less improvement than in former case (16.13% compared to 20%)

if your character is not at 60% CC then it might be better to increase offense instead.