Increased budgets for packs?

"ChadSims2;c-16328251" wrote:

"BeJaWa;c-16328130" wrote:
So yeah I think the budget is similar to what it was before, the teams just have more systems to build on and play with now so it is easier and cheaper to make a pack.

I agree they are just using systems in place reusing content in past packs as "new"

I am actually ok with that. It makes packs more full and it is actually useful to the gameplay so I'm totally fine with reusing content.

My theory is that because many packs have already been made, the developers can now reuse/borrow assets from previously made packs to save on time. For example, they didn’t have to program an entirely new vacation system because that came with Outdoor Retreat, they didn’t have to make the new food vendors because those came with City Living, they didn’t have to make those street sale tables because they already made them in City Living. Plus I’m sure the developers know their way around the new engine already, so at this point in the games development they’ve learned how to develop in the most efficient manner, leaving more time and budget for whatever else they’re making.

"filipomel;c-16328980" wrote:
My theory is that because many packs have already been made, the developers can now reuse/borrow assets from previously made packs to save on time. For example, they didn’t have to program an entirely new vacation system because that came with Outdoor Retreat, they didn’t have to make the new food vendors because those came with City Living, they didn’t have to make those street sale tables because they already made them in City Living. Plus I’m sure the developers know their way around the new engine already, so at this point in the games development they’ve learned how to develop in the most efficient manner, leaving more time and budget for whatever else they’re making.

That's true, not a theory. But I worry for EP's because they are suppose to bring us new things, not recycle at least not a lot. And C&D doesn't do that.

It seems to me like they've made the EPs in Sims 4 more detailed than in Sims 3. While that can mean seemingly less content, the content they do provide ends up more focused. I've also noticed there is more "cohesion" between packs (ie. you can form a vampire club of bowlers that do photography or whatever packs you may have).

It basically feels like they went all "Leroy Jenkins" in the Sims 3, took a step back and have been more cautious in Sims 4 with each pack.

I think it doesn't necessarily mean there's a bigger budget, but more they know the game now. They've come out with enough packs to where they can learn from what went well and what didn't with each pack which makes them more efficient.

"Sigzy05;c-16328415" wrote:

"jackjack_k;d-935126" wrote:

Maybe I'm just not looking at this right, but Laundry Stuff literally had 4 unique Gameplay items (if we include Washers and Dryers as the same item) and probably has the biggest system we've seen in a Stuff Pack to date by quite a bit.

And now Jungle Adventure has come out, with a world that's 3x as big as the what we got with Vampires and much bigger than Outdoor Retreat, and there's more skills, gameplay items and overall animations than what we've seen for a GP so far by quite a significant chunk (Vampires seemed to be the most Animation heavy so far and I'd say this eclipses it by a fair amount).

I'm thinking maybe with the console release confirmed, they've been able to up the budget for the packs because they know the audience has increased?

What do you guys think?

We'll see. I'm not going to say it's a definitely yes until I see the next EP. No shade to the EP team but EP's have been kind of terrible and underwhelming on TS4. To me the best are the first two and still, somethings could have been done much better (either by having extra time, or extra budget) but I really don't know the reason as to why. It's clear though that EP's spend a lot of budget on working for new TS4 assets and then end up by not being able to deliver on the gameplay aspect. It only leads me to believe making new assets for this game is more expensive than they planned. To me the perfect examples of this are C&D and CL.

CL barely has any new gameplay or even interactions and it uses more BG stuff on the festivals and on the lot traits than anything else. It's clear they spent a lot just to add up to the TS4 world system with the neighborhood icons, higher res back drops, camera tweaks and spawners for festivals. The apartment gameplay leaves a lot to be desired, karaoke bars are boring, unnecessary use of the singing skill, no roomate service etc.

C&D spent a lot on adding cats and dogs themselves and reworking CAS features but then gameplay wise there's not a lot at all. Not even actual pet contests with dedicated NPC's and venue, recycling both Dine Out and GTW for the vet career. It honestly feels like only 70% of the EP was completed in comparison to previous pet EP's.

I have to agree here with everything said, and I absolutely love CL, been playing it pretty much exclusively however the world is extremely buggy. And sorry not sorry, we should be able to edit public spaces. Provide a cap limit to the objects there and let players do what they want. The reason I say this is because there is nothing for toddlers at any open space, even in the new worlds post toddler update. So while child Sims can play at the neighborhood park with no loading screens, toddlers cannot. They must be taken to a lot that has toddler items, requiring a loading screen. Toddlers are in the game, include stuff for them in the public areas in all packs moving forward. That should be included in the budget

I'd say no, because:

1) The animations for interacting with washers and dryers are noticeably choppy. It tends to look like the person playing has suddenly suffered from a frame drop, when in actuality it's just the animation skipping frames to save on cash.

2) The textures of recent packs have been lacking. Toddler ball pit and the front of the washer/dryer as examples.

3) Recycled assets. This upcoming GP is built off a system from Outdoor Retreat and recycles a merchant's table from City Living, as well as recycling a food stall from City Living. This is also the first time a washer and dryer have practically looked identical.

There's still evidence of cutting corners and a small budget. I just think the GP team has been the smartest about working around those limitations to make functional, fleshed-out systems despite it all. The SP team is content to just give us things, the EP team tries to tackle big features like Pets even when the budget simply isn't there, but the GP is the one that figures out they can - for example - use existing assets to basically build an entire parenting system where children gain traits based on their placement on a simple -100 to +100 scale.

"@DeservedCriticism;c-16330713" wrote:
I'd say no, because:

1) The animations for interacting with washers and dryers are noticeably choppy. It tends to look like the person playing has suddenly suffered from a frame drop, when in actuality it's just the animation skipping frames to save on cash.

2) The textures of recent packs have been lacking. Toddler ball pit and the front of the washer/dryer as examples.

3) Recycled assets. This upcoming GP is built off a system from Outdoor Retreat and recycles a merchant's table from City Living, as well as recycling a food stall from City Living. This is also the first time a washer and dryer have practically looked identical.

There's still evidence of cutting corners and a small budget. I just think the GP team has been the smartest about working around those limitations to make functional, fleshed-out systems despite it all. The SP team is content to just give us things, the EP team tries to tackle big features like Pets even when the budget simply isn't there, but the GP is the one that figures out they can - for example - use existing assets to basically build an entire parenting system where children gain traits based on their placement on a simple -100 to +100 scale.

The Game Pack team seem to follow more of The Sims 2 EP take. A lot of the Sims 2 EP's take a lot of features from each others packs, and reuse systems to their advantage (eg. Apartment Life reuses a lot of tech from University, OFB basically is a new tool, but a lot of OFB was reusing existing Community venues and re-purposing them, Bon Voyage reuses different gameplay from other packs eg. Room Service being restaurant gameplay ).

The EP team seem to only ever make new content and they obviously don't have a big budget to make a lot. The EP team shouldn't be hesitant to reuse existing content in new ways. No one seems angry that the GP are reusing the food stalls, OR animations and the market tables.

For example, Cats & Dogs could have reused Parenthood's system for Pets, where Pets could have positively or negative learned behaviors etc. but instead they give us a notification after scolding them 3 times saying "they'll stop doing that now".

They could have even used Vampires "power system" but for learnt tricks and things that different animals can work towards, but then make the player choose a weakness for their pet (eg. being scared of random appliances, constant barking, always pees/poops inside) with tricks like "hunts for collectibles for your Sim" "earns more at training grounds" etc.

C&D is clearly a result of poor budget, but I feel like SimGuruGrant (who calls all the shots for EPs from what I understand) seems to be more focused on the world detail and focusing on entirely new stuff. Which is bad when if they can't afford a new system, they can't at least reuse an old one. They just make a basic one instead.

The GP team seem to reuse systems and assets differently, without it feeling like your paying for the same thing twice.

People say "the EP and GP team are the same!!!! they just have different packs" but its clear whoever is in charge of GP's know how to regulate a budget better.

Whoever is in charge with EP's, doesn't realize its better to repurpose old tech if it offers better game play, rather than building a new system that's actually worse.

"jackjack_k;c-16334814" wrote:

"@DeservedCriticism;c-16330713" wrote:
I'd say no, because:

1) The animations for interacting with washers and dryers are noticeably choppy. It tends to look like the person playing has suddenly suffered from a frame drop, when in actuality it's just the animation skipping frames to save on cash.

2) The textures of recent packs have been lacking. Toddler ball pit and the front of the washer/dryer as examples.

3) Recycled assets. This upcoming GP is built off a system from Outdoor Retreat and recycles a merchant's table from City Living, as well as recycling a food stall from City Living. This is also the first time a washer and dryer have practically looked identical.

There's still evidence of cutting corners and a small budget. I just think the GP team has been the smartest about working around those limitations to make functional, fleshed-out systems despite it all. The SP team is content to just give us things, the EP team tries to tackle big features like Pets even when the budget simply isn't there, but the GP is the one that figures out they can - for example - use existing assets to basically build an entire parenting system where children gain traits based on their placement on a simple -100 to +100 scale.

The Game Pack team seem to follow more of The Sims 2 EP take. A lot of the Sims 2 EP's take a lot of features from each others packs, and reuse systems to their advantage (eg. Apartment Life reuses a lot of tech from University, OFB basically is a new tool, but a lot of OFB was reusing existing Community venues and re-purposing them, Bon Voyage reuses different gameplay from other packs eg. Room Service being restaurant gameplay ).

The EP team seem to only ever make new content and they obviously don't have a big budget to make a lot. The EP team shouldn't be hesitant to reuse existing content in new ways. No one seems angry that the GP are reusing the food stalls, OR animations and the market tables.

For example, Cats & Dogs could have reused Parenthood's system for Pets, where Pets could have positively or negative learned behaviors etc. but instead they give us a notification after scolding them 3 times saying "they'll stop doing that now".

They could have even used Vampires "power system" but for learnt tricks and things that different animals can work towards, but then make the player choose a weakness for their pet (eg. being scared of random appliances, constant barking, always pees/poops inside) with tricks like "hunts for collectibles for your Sim" "earns more at training grounds" etc.

C&D is clearly a result of poor budget, but I feel like SimGuruGrant (who calls all the shots for EPs from what I understand) seems to be more focused on the world detail and focusing on entirely new stuff. Which is bad when if they can't afford a new system, they can't at least reuse an old one. They just make a basic one instead.

The GP team seem to reuse systems and assets differently, without it feeling like your paying for the same thing twice.

People say "the EP and GP team are the same!!!! they just have different packs" but its clear whoever is in charge of GP's know how to regulate a budget better.

Whoever is in charge with EP's, doesn't realize its better to repurpose old tech if it offers better game play, rather than building a new system that's actually worse.

It’s not always bad to develop new systems and new things, just like it’s not always bad to reuse existing things. I mean if you are going to refresh an existing system the bare minimum you should do is make it feel different - which the new GP seems to do.

Refreshed things should always be side things, like in the new GP the market/bar/etc is all side stuff. The main theme is exploring the jungle which seems to be exactly where they put the time and effort. Which is great.

IMO the most obnoxious reuses of things came in CL where all of the new things used to sell the pack were assembled from existing things.

I do agree that the EP team focuses way too much on the environment. A few decorative walk-ways and a decorative landscape might look good, and might accent a trailer very nicely, but if the actual contents of the pack aren’t the main focus it’s more or less a waste of effort IMO.

"@drake_mccarty;c-16334853" wrote:

"jackjack_k;c-16334814" wrote:

"@DeservedCriticism;c-16330713" wrote:
I'd say no, because:

1) The animations for interacting with washers and dryers are noticeably choppy. It tends to look like the person playing has suddenly suffered from a frame drop, when in actuality it's just the animation skipping frames to save on cash.

2) The textures of recent packs have been lacking. Toddler ball pit and the front of the washer/dryer as examples.

3) Recycled assets. This upcoming GP is built off a system from Outdoor Retreat and recycles a merchant's table from City Living, as well as recycling a food stall from City Living. This is also the first time a washer and dryer have practically looked identical.

There's still evidence of cutting corners and a small budget. I just think the GP team has been the smartest about working around those limitations to make functional, fleshed-out systems despite it all. The SP team is content to just give us things, the EP team tries to tackle big features like Pets even when the budget simply isn't there, but the GP is the one that figures out they can - for example - use existing assets to basically build an entire parenting system where children gain traits based on their placement on a simple -100 to +100 scale.

The Game Pack team seem to follow more of The Sims 2 EP take. A lot of the Sims 2 EP's take a lot of features from each others packs, and reuse systems to their advantage (eg. Apartment Life reuses a lot of tech from University, OFB basically is a new tool, but a lot of OFB was reusing existing Community venues and re-purposing them, Bon Voyage reuses different gameplay from other packs eg. Room Service being restaurant gameplay ).

The EP team seem to only ever make new content and they obviously don't have a big budget to make a lot. The EP team shouldn't be hesitant to reuse existing content in new ways. No one seems angry that the GP are reusing the food stalls, OR animations and the market tables.

For example, Cats & Dogs could have reused Parenthood's system for Pets, where Pets could have positively or negative learned behaviors etc. but instead they give us a notification after scolding them 3 times saying "they'll stop doing that now".

They could have even used Vampires "power system" but for learnt tricks and things that different animals can work towards, but then make the player choose a weakness for their pet (eg. being scared of random appliances, constant barking, always pees/poops inside) with tricks like "hunts for collectibles for your Sim" "earns more at training grounds" etc.

C&D is clearly a result of poor budget, but I feel like SimGuruGrant (who calls all the shots for EPs from what I understand) seems to be more focused on the world detail and focusing on entirely new stuff. Which is bad when if they can't afford a new system, they can't at least reuse an old one. They just make a basic one instead.

The GP team seem to reuse systems and assets differently, without it feeling like your paying for the same thing twice.

People say "the EP and GP team are the same!!!! they just have different packs" but its clear whoever is in charge of GP's know how to regulate a budget better.

Whoever is in charge with EP's, doesn't realize its better to repurpose old tech if it offers better game play, rather than building a new system that's actually worse.

It’s not always bad to develop new systems and new things, just like it’s not always bad to reuse existing things. I mean if you are going to refresh an existing system the bare minimum you should do is make it feel different - which the new GP seems to do.

Refreshed things should always be side things, like in the new GP the market/bar/etc is all side stuff. The main theme is exploring the jungle which seems to be exactly where they put the time and effort. Which is great.

IMO the most obnoxious reuses of things came in CL where all of the new things used to sell the pack were assembled from existing things.

I do agree that the EP team focuses way too much on the environment. A few decorative walk-ways and a decorative landscape might look good, and might accent a trailer very nicely, but if the actual contents of the pack aren’t the main focus it’s more or less a waste of effort IMO.

I also just think that the team could have made really good use of existing systems, but they seem to make their own, even if they're not as good.

I appreciate the need for new systems but if you can't afford it, find creative ways to work around it. And reuse what you have creatively.

The EP team need to be more aware of what the game already has and how to make the best of new gameplay with that, rather than always trying to start things from scratch and coming up sub par.

Even Vampires was able to add a new mini world as an extra something, while providing the best vampires we've ever had. And they reused systems from Aliens to do that. But they never feel like Alien clones.

"jackjack_k;c-16334861" wrote:

"@drake_mccarty;c-16334853" wrote:

"jackjack_k;c-16334814" wrote:

"@DeservedCriticism;c-16330713" wrote:
I'd say no, because:

1) The animations for interacting with washers and dryers are noticeably choppy. It tends to look like the person playing has suddenly suffered from a frame drop, when in actuality it's just the animation skipping frames to save on cash.

2) The textures of recent packs have been lacking. Toddler ball pit and the front of the washer/dryer as examples.

3) Recycled assets. This upcoming GP is built off a system from Outdoor Retreat and recycles a merchant's table from City Living, as well as recycling a food stall from City Living. This is also the first time a washer and dryer have practically looked identical.

There's still evidence of cutting corners and a small budget. I just think the GP team has been the smartest about working around those limitations to make functional, fleshed-out systems despite it all. The SP team is content to just give us things, the EP team tries to tackle big features like Pets even when the budget simply isn't there, but the GP is the one that figures out they can - for example - use existing assets to basically build an entire parenting system where children gain traits based on their placement on a simple -100 to +100 scale.

The Game Pack team seem to follow more of The Sims 2 EP take. A lot of the Sims 2 EP's take a lot of features from each others packs, and reuse systems to their advantage (eg. Apartment Life reuses a lot of tech from University, OFB basically is a new tool, but a lot of OFB was reusing existing Community venues and re-purposing them, Bon Voyage reuses different gameplay from other packs eg. Room Service being restaurant gameplay ).

The EP team seem to only ever make new content and they obviously don't have a big budget to make a lot. The EP team shouldn't be hesitant to reuse existing content in new ways. No one seems angry that the GP are reusing the food stalls, OR animations and the market tables.

For example, Cats & Dogs could have reused Parenthood's system for Pets, where Pets could have positively or negative learned behaviors etc. but instead they give us a notification after scolding them 3 times saying "they'll stop doing that now".

They could have even used Vampires "power system" but for learnt tricks and things that different animals can work towards, but then make the player choose a weakness for their pet (eg. being scared of random appliances, constant barking, always pees/poops inside) with tricks like "hunts for collectibles for your Sim" "earns more at training grounds" etc.

C&D is clearly a result of poor budget, but I feel like SimGuruGrant (who calls all the shots for EPs from what I understand) seems to be more focused on the world detail and focusing on entirely new stuff. Which is bad when if they can't afford a new system, they can't at least reuse an old one. They just make a basic one instead.

The GP team seem to reuse systems and assets differently, without it feeling like your paying for the same thing twice.

People say "the EP and GP team are the same!!!! they just have different packs" but its clear whoever is in charge of GP's know how to regulate a budget better.

Whoever is in charge with EP's, doesn't realize its better to repurpose old tech if it offers better game play, rather than building a new system that's actually worse.

It’s not always bad to develop new systems and new things, just like it’s not always bad to reuse existing things. I mean if you are going to refresh an existing system the bare minimum you should do is make it feel different - which the new GP seems to do.

Refreshed things should always be side things, like in the new GP the market/bar/etc is all side stuff. The main theme is exploring the jungle which seems to be exactly where they put the time and effort. Which is great.

IMO the most obnoxious reuses of things came in CL where all of the new things used to sell the pack were assembled from existing things.

I do agree that the EP team focuses way too much on the environment. A few decorative walk-ways and a decorative landscape might look good, and might accent a trailer very nicely, but if the actual contents of the pack aren’t the main focus it’s more or less a waste of effort IMO.

I also just think that the team could have made really good use of existing systems, but they seem to make their own, even if they're not as good.

I appreciate the need for new systems but if you can't afford it, find creative ways to work around it. And reuse what you have creatively.

The EP team need to be more aware of what the game already has and how to make the best of new gameplay with that, rather than always trying to start things from scratch and coming up sub par.

Even Vampires was able to add a new mini world as an extra something, while providing the best vampires we've ever had. And they reused systems from Aliens to do that. But they never feel like Alien clones.

With respects to expansion packs I would argue their purpose is to implement new systems. Getting creative while trying to mainly use what you already have was CL’s primary problem IMO. It’s “new” features were either functionally similar to things that were already in the game, or assembled using (mostly) things that were already in the game.

Ya Vamps is good. You’re right that’s an example of using what you have in a way that feels completely different. GP’s are undoubtedly the golden egg of the three pack types.