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DarthValtrex's avatar
DarthValtrex
Hero (Retired)
5 years ago

Re: Stopping cheating by simply tracking Stats?

@MetršŸ¤­din If it was that simple they would be doing it. Simply put there is more to it. If you have a program that detects headshots, you then have someone get lucky and land a bunch of headshots, they get wrongfully banned. Now the TOS team has to deal with reviewing that persons account and unban them.

Some of the very high skill players aim for nothing but headshots. They are extremely good at as well. I've bumped into top 100 preds in matches, they land a ton of headshots, it's really insane. Some of them I have heard of and I can tell you they do not cheat. They just have really good aim, really good recoil control and are really good at the game. If they did not have the top 100 pred badges I would assume they were cheaters at the death report. But when I spectate them it's clear they are high skill players. Their movement, their play, the way they rotate, everything is top notch. 

19 Replies

  • GRiPSViGiL's avatar
    GRiPSViGiL
    Seasoned Ace
    5 years ago
    @DarthValtrex I call BS on your claim. You can't tell if people don't cheat!

    Stats are a great way to identify cheaters.

    Tell me AI and machine learning cannot be leveraged to analyze and combat the problem? They could absolutely do testing with Pro's and compare against cheat programs in controlled environments to get good data. The cost of doing is probably the deterrent.

    You can't play against similar skill player pools and maintain the gaudy stats and high headshot percentage cheats will register. Most competitive games match with some kind of MMR so the skill rises past the cannon fodder groups. Why do you think cheats can be tuned to land less HSs? Because stats were being used to ban people on good clan run servers for a lot of different games!
  • BaldWraithSimp's avatar
    BaldWraithSimp
    5 years ago
    @DarthValtrex Maybe cuz you haven't come across aimbot on PC like we PC players have. Besides OP is talking about PC cheats here, so console experience is of no consequence here.

    Can a person get lucky that every shot he takes against each enemy in the entirety of one game is a clear headshot? No. I am not talking about killing 1 guy with all headshot, but killing like say 10 with a 100% headshot accuracy. Not even preds can do that.
  • hayhor's avatar
    hayhor
    Hero
    5 years ago
    @DarthValtrex You wouldnt ban someone for a few lucky shots. You would look at an overall trend and look for the blatant ones first. As your algorithm improves maybe you can figure out the soft cheaters. The one who dont only do 90% headshots but maybe their cheat makes a pattern to try and throw the automated anticheat off.

    I could see doing this and we dont know if they are or are not at least trying to now. I'm pretty sure it isnt just one guy or a few people reviewed videos to ban people though.
  • DarthValtrex's avatar
    DarthValtrex
    Hero (Retired)
    5 years ago

    Sure and they are working on AI to combat cheating. Most gaming companies are investing a ton of resources into it. Putting an end to cheating would be a golden goose for a gaming company, especially if it's something they can get intellectual property protections on. Every FPS game on the market is plagued with cheating. If a gaming company could provide an FPS game that had an anti cheat system that was let's say 95 or even just 90% effective, they could dominate the FPS market. It would be worth tens of billions if not hundreds of billions of dollars.

    Unless the cheating is really egregious, it can be hard to detect. There are forum members here who have KD's above 8 and they do not cheat. I played a few rounds with an old forum member who had a KD above 7. I have a BFV friend, I used to play BFV with him almost daily when I was into it. He's one of the top BFV players in the world for console. He uses a standard controller, he just has crazy skill. Just to give an idea, this guy used to be a professional baseball player.. He has reactions time most people simply do not have. His stats in game are just unbelievable. Every lobby we would go into, he would get endless accusations of cheating. 

    Just to give an idea what I'm talking about.. It takes .4 seconds for a fastball to go from the pitchers hand to catchers glove. In that .4 seconds he can judge how fast the ball is traveling, the direction of the ball and still make contact with most of the pitches thrown. Keep in mind it takes a human .3-.4 seconds to blink. 

    @BaldWraithSimp I have dealt with the cheaters in PC lobbies I frequently play with forum members who are on PC. So I completely understand the gripe.. I want it fixed just as much as you do.

  • DarthValtrex's avatar
    DarthValtrex
    Hero (Retired)
    5 years ago
    @hayhor I think if it were up to me and I was trying to write the system. I would focus on AI that documents the software instead of the individual player.

    Recoil patterns, TTK, just about every point of data I could come up with. Have the AI analyze the data and look for patterns that we can't see/comprehend. Now have the AI create definitions based on those patterns and so on. I think that is what they already do.. The issue is they find a way to detect said cheat, it becomes useless, people who make the cheat update their cheat to get around the detection method. Thus it's a constant battle for gaming companies.

    I think it sort of depends on the type of cheat being used though. Detecting wallhacks is much different than detecting aimbot.
  • lnxtvv's avatar
    lnxtvv
    5 years ago

    Respawn is not INTERESTED to counteract cheaters phenomenon, they have only one goal, take money from cosmetics, if you see there only one thing work very very good and are credit card transiction! the rest is nothing, players continue complaining but they play the same and this push company to not waste time to solve, bug, glitch, cheat and another kind of problem....as long as they have players continue play and complaing but not stop play the company live and not take action....this is my point of view...

  • E9ine_AC's avatar
    E9ine_AC
    Hero+
    5 years ago
    @BaldWraithSimp Using numbers to base upon action is not how it should be done. Just yesterday i hit 12 head shots with a charge rifle. Another full mag head shot with 301.

    People dont understand that sometimes some just get lucky. Its quite easy to dril nothing but head shots when a player is standing still like a potato wondering what year it is.... Majority of my shots are head shots. Because ive trained my aim to focus on head shots not body shots. I want them dead not wounded.

    One my legends has 2400 kills. With 5000 or so head shots. Does this make me a cheater? 50% of my shots are head shots at this point. Some only aim for head shots.
  • E9ine_AC's avatar
    E9ine_AC
    Hero+
    5 years ago
    @lnxtvv Why do you even hang out here? You do nothing but talk ill about the company. You offer nothing constructive to answer questions or help with solutions. Why stay on these forums dogging a game you hate but still play and still stick around for? People need to stop being 2 sided. Either leave the game or support the game. Yes it has issues just as every single game on the market does.
  • BaldWraithSimp's avatar
    BaldWraithSimp
    5 years ago
    @E9ine_AC You missed my point. I clearly said getting 1 or 2 kills with full headshots can be lucky, but if someone has 15 kills and all of them are full headshots that's clearly an aimbot. I am talking about near 100 % headshot accuracy throughout the entire game.

    2400 kills, and how many shots did you take to kill these 2400 people in total? Even if you take 10 shots per person which is me being modest here, that's 24000 shots and 5000 headshot equates to about 21% headshot. You don't fit my description in any shape or form. šŸ¤”
  • E9ine_AC's avatar
    E9ine_AC
    Hero+
    5 years ago
    @BaldWraithSimp What you describe is something EAC will look for iirc. It does a vast amount checks when a report is sent in on a user. Def when multiple reports same game or across consecutive games are sent in. It does quite few checks though to determine its outcome. Its a touchy subject or thought to think how to do it.

    One game i could do 2 kills all head shots then die. This by yalls method would trigger EAC because all the kills i earned are pure head shots triggering a false positive. next game i get lucky pure head shots 1 person and i die. This again triggers it to coinicide with the checks of such a system being there. It would cause possibly more false positives causing the company even more troubles in terms of inaccurate bans due to these stats.
  • E9ine_AC's avatar
    E9ine_AC
    Hero+
    5 years ago
    @BaldWraithSimp Yes but you think they gonna have the system set up to only flag people with 10 kills or more? It will take into account for the head shots, not the kills. As i said it would create tons of false positives. If it took kills into a factor then anyone with 5+ more kills a game would be flagged then cross checked for head shots. A lot of AI computing cross checking etc. Just not the best way to do it. Not to mention most smart cheaters toggle and most only use body shots so its not as obvious. This would not stop but maybe a very small portion of children who set theirs for full on head shots every shot.
  • hayhor's avatar
    hayhor
    Hero
    5 years ago

    @E9ine_ACAs I mentioned this isnt about the random ones or one time ones. This is about the blatant ones. Many cheats dont even care. Get those out first. And yeah 1 or 2 kills wouldnt trigger it if the system was even half decent.

  • E9ine_AC's avatar
    E9ine_AC
    Hero+
    5 years ago
    @hayhor I have suggested something quite similar before on here. Once reported the system will sit that to the side in a log file where the next 20 games will be cross checked against each other. If there is a repeat hit pattern the system takes action.

    These hacks are set to do what ever hit pattern its programmed to. So they have the option to set the full mag to only body or 4 body 2 head rest body. So what it needs to look for is repeated hit patterns that will show something is doing this as chances of you constantly hitting the same hit pattern across 20 games would be pretty slim. Even if toggled it still would show the cheat pattern numerous times across 20 games.
  • hayhor's avatar
    hayhor
    Hero
    5 years ago
    @E9ine_AC That sounds fine to me. Have you ever heard of shadow banning? Where basically a person who is reported enough times is dumped into a weird high ping lobby of bots and I'd they continue to cheat it becomes obvious.
  • E9ine_AC's avatar
    E9ine_AC
    Hero+
    5 years ago
    @hayhor Can not say I have heard of shadow banning. In the mmo world which is work i do for my game and did for other games such as wow/everquest and such. So we flat banned accounts and dont got to worry about those type of things. This was back in eary 90's to about 2016 when i parted ways and did my own thing. So the type bans and such are pretty new to me. My brain just thinks of ways i would of done it.
  • lnxtvv's avatar
    lnxtvv
    5 years ago
    @E9ine_AC and your problem are me evidently.....everywhere i write appear you with your best comment...and you are expert? yes expert of stalking....yes i hate company where offer you a corrupt product...i play apex because for now on the market not exists nothing of interesting..i play many games of EA but with a problem not solved same this i never see.....and company not work for solve cheaters problem for me he as failed...cheat are update every month or week and this anticheat is update every 2/3 month, is normal for you? your antivirus update everydays or every years?
  • E9ine_AC's avatar
    E9ine_AC
    Hero+
    5 years ago
    @lnxtvv Not a game on this planet that does not have some form of cheating. Via actual cheats to known exploits. No one can stop them. No matter how much money a company makes it cannot be stopped.

    Lets compare as ive done in posts before. Fortnite is worth 17 billion. Has cheaters..

    Valorant in 1 year made over 2 billion yet has cheaters.

    GTA 5 been out since 2014 bringing in billions as well. Yet a game this old a game that makes this much money still has cheaters....

    What you think is a easy fix is virtually impossible to stop. I do not stalk you but when i see you post the same thing on every single post talking ill against them non stop i will say something. You dogging a company for something they will never have control over is beyond your thought process.

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