Re: Why we can't rank up playing without a pre made team!!

So you are saying someone that has played 15 Raked Arena games could in theory have the same HIDDEN MMR as a player that has played well over 100 Ranked Arena games and only lost roughly 5 games until GOLD 4?  If that is the case then the hidden MMR does not come playing Arenas at all, otherwise there is no way these values would even be close. As I stated, I only lost about 5 games till I got to Gold 4.   So how could I possibly have the same HIDDEN MMR as someone that has only played about 15 ranked Arena games?  If 5 losses out of 100  is equal 0 losses out of 15 then that would makes sense but then that brings up the question just how much 1 loss would cost your HIDDEN MMR or just how much does no losses elevate this hidden number?   Also I then question why there are no other GOLD 4 players that have the same HIDDEN MMR as I have.  One could easily say, "Well you just aren't very good, and that why you have said HIDDEN MMR."  But again, i say to that, I only lost about 5 games until I got gold 4.  So to me, this HIDDEN MMR must not work correctly.

Also is it trying to make the LOBBY fair with this HIDDEN MMR or the TEAM.  The reason I ask is say both sides have a total MMR of 999.  If three players have 333 MMR on both teams or close, that would be right.  But again the LOBBY is trying to match at 999 and one team has 3-333 and the other has 2- 150 and 1 - 699 then that is where the problem comes in.  Which is what I feel like its doing.  Otherwise once I hit gold 4 one would think I would at least SOMETIMES have another GOLD player on my team not 2 Bronze players and or players that have not even completed their 10 games.  Which again, I say, they could be great players, but you are still being placed with others that don't have the same EXPERIENCE.  Otherwise they would be out of BRONZE as it costs nothing to get out of besides time played,

I guess so but highly unlikely.  But lets take your very extreme case as example how it COULD work in theory

Player A, B and player C wins ALL their first 9 placement matches whereas Player X and player Z loses all their 9 first placement matches. In Player 1 FIRST placement match is he randomly matched AGAINST player A, B, C (all of them on 9/9 wins) and he is teamed WITH Player X and Z (both on a 9 game losing streak). Now lets say team Player 1 + Player X + Player Z wins and Player 1 hard carries that match 9 kills in 3 winning rounds. Then his gained MMR for his first placement match might increase with its maximum possible number.  Now lets say he does this in all his 10 placement matches. When he is done with the placement matches and can start play in Bronze4, his MMR is super high; much higher than the average Bronze and he is matched with Gold/Platinums. If he continues to win those matches, he will gain points very quickly thus soon reach the rank than corresponds best to his MMR, i.e the rank where most other with his MMR currently are. 

So losses and wins is not worth the same every match so it doesnt matter if you only lost 5 games prior to hitting gold 4. It all depends on your and your teams MMR vs your enemy and enemy teams MMR.  And if the system works properly, you should never get ranked match of average mmr "999" when one side has three 333 and one side two 100s and one 799... The only time this could happen in a properly designed rank system is if the game allows totally freely constructed premade. And thats why MMR is so good to base ranked on. Because if we take the example above: lets say you are super good and have 799 MMR and you want to carry me and one other, both of us at 100 MMR and the game allows us to play together by putting us in a average 999 MMR match. Then 

1) You would have to hard carry, basically 1v3 since all enemies are much better than both me and the third.

2) If we win, YOU wont almost get any points at all since your MMR of 799 is so much higher than the average 333 of the enemy players. 

3) if we loses, YOU would lose tons of points of the same reason.

So its kinda of a fail safe for people to boost each other I guess. But then again; I dont know a thing how Respawn implemented their MMR system so maybe we shouldn't assume to much =)

So may latest match was a REAL level 13 Player, and a REAL level 24 Player.  Both were still in their placement matches.  I'm not sure where there were in their Matches since they didn't tell me, but it pretty much proves my point, that once you hit gold, you get matched with much less EXPERIENCED players.  Also there is no way possible the 3 of us could have close to the same HIDDEN MMR as they were VERY NEW PLAYERS to APEX and they BOTH had not even finished their PLACEMENT MATCHES.  Which again leads me to believe, they are trying to fill the LOBBY with roughly the same HIDDEN MMR not the TEAM.  I've also asked every single player I have played with, and I've been playing a lot today, NOT ONE was GOLD RANK.  Rocket League had the same kind of ranking system.  What they did right though, is they placed you with players that were actually at your skill level and you played other players that were also at your skill level.  It was not perfect by any means but at least when you joined a game, you knew you were not going to get a brand new player on your team even at the third lowest ranks such as GOLD in APEX.  

And it just did it again.  I've now gone from 1 win away to GOLD 3 all the way down to 1 loss away from going back to SIVLER.  Not a single game today did I get ANY Teammates that were GOLD rank.  Not 1.   Most of my teammates have been playing the game less than 2 months, Given their actual level they display.  I played with much better players when I was in SILVER rank.  So what that tells me is, again, they are filling the LOBBY at a specific MMR not the TEAM.  I'm sure when I was silver, I was playing with GOLD players.  But now that I'm the GOLD player I'm playing with BRONZE players over and over and over and over and over and over and then I get 1 SILVER and then over and over and over again!  For me this season is a wash and not worst playing anymore.  If I can't carry 2 brand new players to a win, and they are boxes 10 seconds after the match starts, I'm pretty much out of options but to just stop playing.  It's not worth it to me, when they are unable it get the ARENA RANKING SYSTEM right.  So it takes me back to my original message, "Why we can't rank up playing without a pre made team."  Reason is, the SYSTEM might make the LOBBY right, but has proven they DON'T make the TEAMS right. 

@Muxtun 

Well what makes you so sure they were "real" level 13 and 24 players?  A truly real level 13 player has only played this game a couple of hours and dont even know how every weapon works. I find it quite unikely he would team up with a "real" lvl 24, which is someone with only 2-4 evenings of gaming, to play arena. Most likely Smurfs.

And besides; its very possible that someone will have gold MMR match in their placement matches. From the patch notes:

"When you first play Ranked Arenas, you start in placement matches. Your performance over these 10 matches will determine your initial MMR and your starting rank. MMR variance is wider initially, so these first 10 matches might be stomp-or-get-stomped until your MMR settles more."

So again; without knowing exactly how the ranked system works, I would guess that the main goal of t he placement match is trying to determine where approx. the player should start, and to do this, they probably test him at difference MMR levels depending how well or badly he performs  at each level.

This is also from the patch notes which explains the relation between your hidden MMR, which the matches are based on, and you visible rank:

"So, as an example: If you find yourself ranked Silver, but you’ve been consistently playing at a Platinum level, our system will go ahead and start matching you against other players with Platinum-level MMRs. If you win these matches, you’ll get a lot more Arenas Points (AP), which will make your visible rank catch up to Platinum quicker. If you lose these matches, likewise, you’ll lose fewer AP, and your MMR will invisibly drop until you’re matched more evenly."

They were both brand new players, we had a real discussion about it and it's very clear when neither even knew how to close the Weapon Selection Screen before the match started. One would think, if they were on SMURF accounts, they would at least close the WEAPON SELECTION MENU and before the time ran out and started at the blue see threw wall vs starting at their spawn location only after the match started.  Only did they know after I told them.  No one is trying to hide the fact that they are a SMURF by pretending they don't know how or that they can close the WEAPON SELECTION SCREEN.   

I love how the example shows if you are Silver level playing with Platinum level.  It seems to me they should give an example as to why if you are GOLD level and your Teammates are brand new, how does that change your MMR.  I find it ironic they give an example of the type of players you will face but not an example of how your own team is decided.  Again the example states, "our system will go ahead and start matching you against other players."   Matching you Against.

Says nothing about how your own team is selected.

@Muxtun 

Well it does say that. How you are being matched and how your team is selected is based on the same principles. For instance; if you play at a Gold2 MMR level and also happen to have the visible rank Gold2 and you get teammates or enemies that show "silver3" as visible rank, then they are selected for that match because they are playing better than the average silver3 player thus the system give them chance to go up against, what the system determines to be "more similar skilled opponents". If these silver 3 players cant handle it, then the system knows they should remain in silver  and if they continue to do well, then the system can keep matching them against tougher and tougher opponents until their settles on their "peak" Rank and MMR.

But whatever. It seems like you just come up with another "BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS" every time I try to explain something. MMR based matchmaking is what all games with one winner and one loser use, team-based or not. CSGO, LoL, Dota, Overwatch, Rainbow six siege etc etc and it works. Just give it some time. If too many of the active arena player base have tot few matches under their belt, the MMR is very far from have settled in, which may be the case for a weird matchmaking in the beginning of area ranked. 

I realize how MMR and HIDDEN MMR works.  Again, Rocket League was the same in that aspect.  Only Rocket League did a much better job of actually placing you with the right team and the right teammates.  My point is and always was, the players I get teamed up with now that I am GOLD 4 do not have the same EXPERIENCE in RANKED ARENAS that a GOLD 4 player would have.  Therefore, even if the players were matched in SKILL they would not be matched in EXPERIENCE in RANKED ARENAS.  And if HIDDEN MMR comes only from playing RANKED ARENA then clearly the HIDDEN MMR does not work right.

And there it was.  It gave me brand new players and new arena players until it took me back down to Silver again.  Tell me how the HIDDEN MMR works so well again?  Not a single EXPERIENCED Ranked ARENA TM ever since I was I win away from GOLD 3.  Not 1!  For that reason, I will not be playing this game again.  I won't play BG as that's no better.  Just another thing they can't get right!  I fully believe the MMR is the best way to place people, IF AND ONLY IF IT ACTUALLY WORKS RIGHT!  But it CLEARLY does not! PRE MADE TEAMS are the only way to go, if you really want your rank to reflect your own skill.  But that takes the solo or single player out of the equation unless that player wants to be frustrated every match KNOWING the TEAM placement is a joke.  But again, should we be surprised at this point?  I THINK NOT!!  UNINSTALLED after 9 months of playing!  No longer worth it to me as the game is not designed for the SINGLE OR SOLO player!

@Muxtun 

Yeah, maybe "clearly" its the system that is wrong and its the systems fault that your ranked carrier didnt go in a straight line up to Predator and now got demoted from Gold to Silver .. Or maybe the system works well and its your individual performances in your matches in relation to your teammates and opponents MMR and performances that got you demoted. Or something in between these to options....

Ps I am not being sarcastic here  or accusing you of anything. There is a possibility that the system is totally flawed but Ive been around competitive games long enough to have seen all blamers who blames the system. All the talk about "silver ELO HELL" in LoL; "I cant get out of silver because of my teammates.". And its exactly the same here on this forum. People blames everything but themselves. "I cant get out of gold because of my teammates" , "I cant get out of gold because of hackers", "I am hardstuck Platinum because of controllers", "The system specifically targets me and boosts everyone else". And I know that is a all BS since I,  most splits, have played AT LEAST 2 accounts from Gold 2-1 to AT LEAST Diamond 2-3 totally solo with randoms, and one other to Diamond 3-to-master with premades. 

I understand that 100%, as I too have been around in many other games over my years that use a similar system.  I don't claim to be a a great player at all, but I have played over 10k games, and have enough game sense to know when I'm playing with brand new players!  We all start somewhere and I get that!  But what I don't understand is why I CONSISTENTLY over and over again, got matched with BRAND NEW PLAYERS only after I was 1 win away from GOLD 3.  I carried most of the wins on my way to GOLD but at least then, I did get teamed with more experienced players.   I was doing most of the Damage and the downs consistently.  I'm still doing most of the Damage and downs but I'm also now getting placed with Teammates that don't even know the map!  Again that is my point!  I'm not blaming the players!  We all started somewhere!  But to me if the HIDDEN MMR is to really be fair, then it has to take into consideration the PLAYERS EXPERIENCE!  How many RANKED ARENA GAMES have they played!  If they have only played 6, then they can't possibly even know the map we are playing on!

Against my better judgement, I decided to keep playing just to see how it works out from here.  I am now almost back to SILVER 2 and I am still getting brand new players that don't know they can close the weapon selection menu!  I'm losing 25 points with every loss and gaining 12 in the VERY OFF CHANCE we win!  I would like some real feedback as to how the selection works and or really is supposed to work.  There is no way, a level 500 player should be teamed up with a level 13 player!  And more importantly, if it happens it should be on the rare occasion!  But for some reason I am not getting this almost EVERY SINGLE GAME!  It really makes me wonder, If i had won 1 game and made it GOLD 3, would this still have been the case?  Was I really 1 win away for not being teamed with someone that has only played the game for a week or so. over and over again now?  Why would any one believe if this is how they system works, that people will continue to play?  

I honestly think there's even SBMM in the rank lobbies.  You cant tell me on the NY server i should be replaying the same people over and over.  I truly believe that a diamond/master/pred will suffer the same issue as pubs solo queuing... the expectation that you'll carry your team to victory.   I find myself against a lot of 3 stack diamond+ teams climbing or hard core smurfing.  Very rarely is it a legit random and or 3 stack team that will be hard stuck at the current rank.  I really think sbmm lives inside rank making the experience for solo queing past diamond3 so hard.

I've continued to play Ranked Arenas just to see.  Once I got 1 win away from Gold 3 I started getting brand new players.  Like real BRAND NEW PLAYERS on my team.  Again we all start somewhere and I get that!  But I was not getting this until I was at that RANK.  I lost then, over and over and over until I was 2 more losses away from SILVER 2.  That's when I stopped getting all the brand new APEX players on my team.  I was still getting a few, but not like I was on the way back down the ranks.  I managed to finally get back to GOLD 4.  And my very first game in GOLD 4 I got yet again, 2 BRAND NEW PLAYERS.  a level 16 and a level 19!  Both on real accounts.  Not smurf accounts.  I lost about 4 games and was now back in Silver 4 for the 3rd time.  After I lost these games, I started to get a few more experienced players again.  I have managed to make it back into GOLD 4 and NOW, I'm getting a mix of both new players and a somewhat experienced player!  Every game is a struggle though, for GOLD 4!  That's crazy to me.  As I stated before, It's nearly impossible to rank up without a pre made team, if you are forced to play with MUCH LESS experienced players once you hit GOLD 4!  That's the issue with this way of whatever MMR!  There are tiers that will always be locked into being TEAMED with players that just don't have the GAME EXPERIENCE!  So unless one is good enough to carry the teams long enough to get past this tier, sadly one will find themselves stuck at this rank for a long time while there (WHATEVER MMR) just bounces around.  If this MMR is based off other factors like (GAMES PLAYED) or an AVERAGE of ANYTHING, imagine how long it would take to work yourself out of this (TIER).  I would say, MONTHS.  Only then to have it all reset while you try to do it again!  

I guess what I'm trying to say is, for all random team placement type games, there almost needs to be some sort of secondary MMR factored in.  Something that takes into consideration, ALTUAL time played.  This secondary type MMR would not have to last forever.  It would only have to last until a certain time so to say.  This would stop  the MORE EXPERIENCED player from being TEAMED UP with PLAYERS that have only played for a few weeks or so.  If there is not some way of sorting that out, then solo q'ing will always be way more difficult than it really is.  

Ranked br as stand it stands is horrible playing solo. there is no incentive for team work