Lord Vader & DS Clones - Ridicoulus mechanics exposed
Hello fellow gamers.
I am a vivid fan of Vader and thus his team is quite important to me, but I don't know if this is working as intended or not.
The main issue is regarding Disguised Clone Trooper and the synergistic kit of Appo and Knightfall Trooper.
I've noticed problems regarding stealth of Disguised Clone Trooper when he assists off of their abilities between his turns (as usually he goes before Appo and I'm Trooper, gains and gains stealth).
His kits states that if he doesn't have Ruse at the beginning of his turn he will stealth at the end of his turn and that if he attacks while stealthed, he loses stealth. If he starts his turn while stealthed, he gains Ruse. (See image 0752 and 0753).
Appo and Knightfall Troopers both have abilities that when used, they will call a Random Dark Side Support Ally to assist, but their abilities are worded differently. When Appo uses his ability, it states that at the end of Appo's turn the assisting ally will stealth, so if Dark Side Clone Trooper assists while stealthed, he loses it first as per his kit, then regains stealth. Knightfall Trooper has the same mechanic but his ability says "Call a random Dark Side Clone Trooper Support Ally to assist and they stealth for 1 turn" (See image 0750 and 0751).
In the case of Knightfall Trooper, if Disguised Clone Trooper is called to assist while stealthed, he loses stealth and does not regain it, so he doesn't gain Ruse at the beginning of his next turn, which is a major nerf. I must say when I read these abilities, I would not say that the wording can be interpreted in the way he should lose stealth.
Another issue I'm having with this team is regarding Dramatic Entrance buff that you gain according to Appo's kit if requirements are met and CX-2 kits says that if you started the battle with the buff, all allies regain Dramatic Entrance when any enemy is defeated, this is not working properly either.
I have recordings of the team used in ROTE vs no GLs and also in Squad Arena and there are so many problems that arise, especially in PvP, with this team. Is anyone having similar issues?
PS: I've submitted a bug report but of course it has gone unanswered. I also can't attatch the videos due to the file size ><. Hoping a better player than I can help me understand this team.
PS2: if you ever read this CG, allow players to read a battle report overview. Tired of these bugs and mistakes. Fix Bane too.
These videos are from the same fight. All my units do not have the Dramatic Entrance buff when JKR dies at the beginning of his turn. Because they do not have the buff (which lasts 2 rounds) they will never be able to fit the criteria in Appo's kit. If to regain Dramatic Entrance according to Appo's kit you need:
1) Have the buff applied
2) Directly kill an enemy while having the buff
Versus any GL team this criteria is never acheiveable or very very rarely (maybe with an omicron supported focused Datacron).
Later in that fight, while CX2 is still alive, Scorch And Appo are both defeated, the Dramatic Entrance buff has long expired, Disguised Clone Trooper directly kills JKL with his special and the buff is reapplied to the remaining living units so it fits the criteria for "this unit defeats an enemy" in Appo's kit while they do not have the buff applied, but somehow still using CX2 kit to reapply it. The problem here is this is just.. Ridicoulus it is because both of you are correct and both of you are incorrect at the same time and that's because the coding in the game is contradictory triggering abilities based whatever CG has decided, irrelevant and irrespective of what text you can read in the abilities of the characters.I've spent my Friday night figuring this out and simply CG decided "defeated" in CX2s just means something else without any explanation.
This is a long text but but it I think I finally figured this out:
---- MECHANICS EXPLAINED ----
First off, thanks to Zanir2 for taking the time to explain all of this. He even sent me a DM going into more detail. I’d also like to tag OutrunWhistle because I see you on the forums a lot and you seem like a reasonable guy. This needs to be seen because the deeper I dig into these mechanics, the more absurd they become.
I freely admit that when the Dark Side Clones were released, I spent money to get them. I love Star Wars, and Anakin/Vader are easily my favorite characters. Unfortunately, after trying to understand how this team actually functions, I regret spending money on them because the design reaches a level where you start wondering why bleach bottles need warning labels.
Let me explain.
THE TEAM’S ENTIRE IDENTITY REVOLVES AROUND DoTs
Lord Vader and the Dark Side Clones are designed around:
- Applying DoTs
- Triggering DoTs
- Benefiting from DoTs
- Interacting with DoTs through Order 66, stuns, cooldown reduction, healing, and other effects
DoTs are one of the core mechanics of the entire faction.
Yet, according to the current explanation, if the team applies 15 stacks of DoTs and the enemy dies from those DoTs at the start of their turn, the enemy effectively defeated themselves.
The units who applied the DoTs don’t get credit.
The units whose kits revolve around DoTs don’t get credit.
The units whose abilities created the damage don’t get credit.
The enemy just dies and apparently defeated themselves.
That alone suggests that DoT ownership either isn’t tracked for kill credit or is simply ignored whenever it matters.
ORDER 66 AND ASHES OF THE REPUBLIC USE “DEFEATED” CONSISTENTLY
Order 66 states:
“Immune to buffs and can’t be revived if defeated.”
Lord Vader’s Ultimate states:
“Enemies defeated while this is active can’t be revived.”
Neither ability cares how the enemy died.
Physical damage? Defeated.
Special damage? Defeated.
DoT damage? Defeated.
The game simply checks whether the unit entered the defeated state.
The source of damage is irrelevant.
This makes perfect sense.
THEN CX-2 SUDDENLY CHANGES THE MEANING OF “DEFEATED”
CX-2 states:
“If all allies gained Dramatic Entrance at the start of the encounter, all allies gain Dramatic Entrance when any enemy unit is defeated.”
Notice the wording.
Not:
“When an ally defeats an enemy.”
Not:
“When an ally scores a kill.”
Not:
“When an ally lands the killing blow.”
It says:
“When any enemy unit is defeated.”
The exact same wording logic used by Order 66 and Ashes of the Republic.
Yet apparently this one works differently.
Now we’re suddenly tracking kill credit and damage ownership again.
Why?
DRAMATIC ENTRANCE CREATES EVEN MORE CONFUSION
Appo’s kit says:
“+25% Offense, deal bonus true damage equal to 10% of the target’s Max Health, which can’t be evaded, gain 20% Turn Meter and Dramatic Entrance for 2 turns if this unit defeats an enemy.”
The buff only lasts 2 turns.
If nobody defeats an enemy during those 2 turns, it expires.
Normally, that would mean it’s gone.
Except CX-2 exists.
CX-2 allows the buff to be reapplied whenever an enemy is defeated.
So now we’re expected to understand that:
- Order 66 uses defeated literally.
- Ashes of the Republic uses defeated literally.
- CX-2 uses defeated differently.
- Appo uses “this unit defeats an enemy.”
- CX-2 somehow inherits Appo’s kill-credit requirements despite using completely different wording.
How is anyone supposed to understand that from the text?
THE TEAM’S CORE MECHANIC WORKS AGAINST ITS OWN TRIGGERS
The team revolves around DoTs.
Yet DoTs apparently don’t count as kills for Appo.
So the mechanic the faction is built around cannot reliably trigger one of the faction’s most important buffs.
That’s already bizarre.
But it gets worse.
APPO’S TRIGGERED DoT ABILITY
Appo has an ability that deals physical damage and immediately triggers existing DoTs.
Let’s say:
- Appo attacks.
- The direct damage doesn’t kill.
- The triggered DoTs kill the enemy.
Who got the kill?
Appo?
The DoT applier?
The enemy?
Nobody?
If DoT damage belongs to the enemy, then Appo shouldn’t get credit.
If Appo doesn’t get credit, then his own “if this unit defeats an enemy” clause doesn’t trigger.
If that doesn’t trigger, does CX-2 trigger?
If CX-2 doesn’t trigger, why does Order 66 still recognize the enemy as defeated?
The wording is identical, yet the outcome changes depending on which ability we’re talking about.
BONUS TRUE DAMAGE CREATES ANOTHER PROBLEM
Now let’s look at Dramatic Entrance itself.
The buff grants bonus true damage equal to 10% of the target’s Max Health.
If that bonus true damage kills the enemy:
Does Appo get kill credit?
Does Dramatic Entrance count as Appo’s damage?
Does it trigger “if this unit defeats an enemy”?
Does it trigger CX-2?
At this point every damage source seems to follow a different set of rules.
THE GAME ACTUALLY TRACKS DoT OWNERSHIP… SOMETIMES
Here’s the funniest part.
Scorch’s kit states:
“Whenever a stack of Damage Over Time inflicted by Scorch expires, he gains 10% Bonus Protection for 2 turns.”
Wait a second.
That means the game absolutely knows:
- Which DoT expired.
- Who applied it.
- Which character owns it.
The system clearly tracks DoT ownership.
It has to.
Otherwise Scorch’s kit couldn’t function.
So ownership exists.
The game knows who applied the DoT.
The game can track it.
But apparently ownership matters for some mechanics, doesn’t matter for others, and we’re given no way whatsoever to see or track any of it ourselves.
THE END RESULT
So let me see if I understand correctly.
If a DoT kills an enemy:
- Order 66 works.
- Ashes of the Republic works.
- Scorch can benefit from his DoT expiring.
- The enemy is considered defeated.
But:
- Appo may not get credit.
- Dramatic Entrance may not trigger.
- CX-2 may not trigger.
Even though all of these interactions revolve around the exact same enemy death event.
Let me put this in another way from the perspective of Scorch:
- Lord Vader acrivates Ashes of the Republic and enemies are inflicted with 4 stacks Of DoTs
- Enemy player dispells Taunt from Scorch and is applied with Order 66 Debuff
- Scorch takes a turn and applies 2 DoTs to the enemy with Order 66 so that enemy has 6 stacks of DoTs
- 2 turns pass and the debuffs aren't dispelled and assume Order 66 is still active as well as Ashes of the Republic
- The enemy with Order 66 starts his turn, the 6 stacks of DoTs do their damage and expire and the enemy dies due to the damage
- The system knows that 4 stacks of DoTs were applied by Lord Vader and 2 stacks applied by Scorch
- Scorch recieves 20% bonus protection since DoTs he inflicted expired
- The criteria for his kit has been met, the criteria for Order 66 and Ashes of The Republic have been met and the enemy is defeated and cannot be revived.
- The criteria for reapplying Dramatic Entrance have not been met since he since the DoTs he inflicted and caused damage and gave him bonus protection are not credited to him but the enemy who defeated himself.
- Even though the criteria have been met for CX2 kit as it is worded exactly the same as Order 66 and Ashes of the Republic, it does not apply because the criteria for CX2 kit to be applied means something different because of no apparent reason.
- The enemy is still defeated according to every other kit ability and definition.. Somehow?
At this point I finally understand the Lord Vader and Dark Side Clone mechanics.
Unfortunately, I had to sacrifice all of my intelligence to do so.
I’m now going to go count rocks and give names to all of my toes.
