Self preservation zeta for sith raid

"TVF;c-1585329" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1585313" wrote:

"Vendi1983;c-1585305" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1585281" wrote:

"leef;c-1585025" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1584936" wrote:


Cleansing as you crit means Nihilus never gets bonus protection and your team doesn't routinely take massive damage for attacking with basics whilst having defense down.

I don’t think this is correct.

It is though. Nihilus never gets bonus protection from JTR teams due to A: healing immunity preventing it at the start of his turns, and B: R2's auto cleanse preventing it when your characters attack him.

While you can still take damage for attacking him with defense down on you, it isn't routine because it'll never happen 2 turns in a row.

You don't take damage for attacking him with defence down. If you attack with defence down using A BASIC, Nihilus regenerates protection. Hence why tenacity and/or cleanse are key against Nihilus.

You need to reread his abilities. He regenerates protection AND you take damage. No need to belabor the basics part, I started by saying that and shortened it, it's in the quotes.

To be fair, you take damage to protection, which is basically irrelevant since he ignores protection anyway. Only place this would be relevant is in P4 since there's also Sion and BOW present.

It's less important in this phase for sure, but I wouldn't call it irrelevant. It still protects you from his basic and the adds. If those attacks were going right into your health bar right away this phase would be even tougher than it already is.

"Woodroward;c-1585342" wrote:

"TVF;c-1585329" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1585313" wrote:

"Vendi1983;c-1585305" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1585281" wrote:

"leef;c-1585025" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1584936" wrote:


Cleansing as you crit means Nihilus never gets bonus protection and your team doesn't routinely take massive damage for attacking with basics whilst having defense down.

I don’t think this is correct.

It is though. Nihilus never gets bonus protection from JTR teams due to A: healing immunity preventing it at the start of his turns, and B: R2's auto cleanse preventing it when your characters attack him.

While you can still take damage for attacking him with defense down on you, it isn't routine because it'll never happen 2 turns in a row.

You don't take damage for attacking him with defence down. If you attack with defence down using A BASIC, Nihilus regenerates protection. Hence why tenacity and/or cleanse are key against Nihilus.

You need to reread his abilities. He regenerates protection AND you take damage. No need to belabor the basics part, I started by saying that and shortened it, it's in the quotes.

To be fair, you take damage to protection, which is basically irrelevant since he ignores protection anyway. Only place this would be relevant is in P4 since there's also Sion and BOW present.

It's less important in this phase for sure, but I wouldn't call it irrelevant. It still protects you from his basic and the adds. If those attacks were going right into your health bar right away this phase would be even tougher than it already is.

His basic doesn't ignore protection? It does so little damage I've never really noticed, and the adds really aren't an issue either. I've never come close to dying because of either of those issues. It's always either a mistimed annihilate or the AOE.

Granted I'm doing T5. Dunno about higher tiers. And with that said it's still a great zeta, just not sure I think the protection loss matters at all in P1.

"Woodroward;c-1585281" wrote:

"leef;c-1585025" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1584936" wrote:


Cleansing as you crit means Nihilus never gets bonus protection and your team doesn't routinely take massive damage for attacking with basics whilst having defense down.

I don’t think this is correct.

It is though. Nihilus never gets bonus protection from JTR teams due to A: healing immunity preventing it at the start of his turns, and B: R2's auto cleanse preventing it when your characters attack him.

While you can still take damage for attacking him with defense down on you, it isn't routine because it'll never happen 2 turns in a row.

I should have specified, i meant not taking damage while using a basic with def down. I don’t think that’s true. I’m not sure if the cleanse stops nihilus from gaining protection either, but that’s irrelevant, as you said, due to the healing immu debuff being present the entire run. I’m not a 100% sure though.
Regardless of all of that, its a useless zeta for p1 JTR STR. Even if you take damage from using basic whilst debuffed with def down, its vs your protection so it doesnt matter anyway. De def down only lasts 1 turn, so even without the cleanse on crit the debuff would have expired anyway and it doesnt prevent the def down from being re-applied. Having to use a basic when you have def down doesnt happen very often, so even if not taking prot dmg is important to you (assuming you’re correct), its still a situational zeta at best. Also, if you’re taking dmg from the adds you’re doing it wrong and nihilus his basic ignores protection aswell.
Great zeta, but doesnt add anything in for a Jtr team in p1 STR.
For reference:

Sorry for going off topic. I like bb8’s second zeta

"Sneekypete;c-1585278" wrote:
Read up found some info on reddit. Apparently people have better success with bb8 zeta less restarts and better recovery from mistakes. I bit the bullet and did it I'll see how it works in about 2 days

This has been my experience aswell. The 4m+ scores in my guild were almost exclusively done by players with 2 zeta bb8. Its a pricy zeta for just p1, but i did it just to get a bit less frustated, so totally worth it ;) hope you like it aswell.

"leef;c-1585433" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1585281" wrote:

"leef;c-1585025" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1584936" wrote:


Cleansing as you crit means Nihilus never gets bonus protection and your team doesn't routinely take massive damage for attacking with basics whilst having defense down.

I don’t think this is correct.

It is though. Nihilus never gets bonus protection from JTR teams due to A: healing immunity preventing it at the start of his turns, and B: R2's auto cleanse preventing it when your characters attack him.

While you can still take damage for attacking him with defense down on you, it isn't routine because it'll never happen 2 turns in a row.

I should have specified, i meant not taking damage while using a basic with def down. I don’t think that’s true. I’m not sure if the cleanse stops nihilus from gaining protection either, but that’s irrelevant, as you said, due to the healing immu debuff being present the entire run. I’m not a 100% sure though.
Regardless of all of that, its a useless zeta for p1 JTR STR. Even if you take damage from using basic whilst debuffed with def down, its vs your protection so it doesnt matter anyway. De def down only lasts 1 turn, so even without the cleanse on crit the debuff would have expired anyway and it doesnt prevent the def down from being re-applied. Having to use a basic when you have def down doesnt happen very often, so even if not taking prot dmg is important to you (assuming you’re correct), its still a situational zeta at best. Also, if you’re taking dmg from the adds you’re doing it wrong and nihilus his basic ignores protection aswell.
Great zeta, but doesnt add anything in for a Jtr team in p1 STR.
For reference:

Everyone's allowed to have their own point of view, but sometimes that point of view is wrong. Unfortunately that's you here.

R2's zeta stops him from gaining bonus protection when you attack him while you have defense down. Healing immunity does not. I've landed healing immunity on him with my droids and watched him gaining bonus protection anyway. Healing immunity ONLY stops the bonus protection at the start of his turn. ONLY not having defense down when you attack him with a basic prevents him gaining it on your turn.

There's no debate about it, R2's zeta will improve your offense against Nihilus.

Trying to say having the adds alive to hit you means you're doing it wrong is a deflection away from the point that there are still attacks that hit protection, so it isn't worthless, so R2's zeta absolutely gives your team more survivability... with adds. So let's not get elitist on strat up in here. I prefer to kill the adds with R2's AoE alone.

So, and this isn't an opinon, R2's zeta GUARANTEES improved survivability and increased offense for your team against Nihilus in P1.

Assuming you are correct about the zeta preventing the negative effects when using a basic while you’re debuffed with defence down its still situational at best since it just doesnt happen often that you’re forced to use a basic with def down.
For all intents and purposes it doesnt improve survivability. Both nihilus (the main dmg dealer) en Sith assassin ignore protection. So the only times you can actually take dmg to your protection are when Sith assassin isnt stealthed and attacks and when Sith Marauder attacks. Those are the only attacks that could potentially cause you to lose Health where as you wouldnt have if you had more protection due to the R2zeta. Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns. Basically for normal play it simply doesnt improve survivability. If it does, you can improve your score way more by changing the way you play than by zeta-ing R2. So Yes, technically it can improve survivability, but during normal play it just doesnt and your characters just die with protection.
As for increased offence, again under the same assumption, it does improve your score. Since its situational at best i’d reckon the difference isnt even noticable. If it adds more than 5% on average i’d be suprised. Feel free to give an estimate yourself, i for one am curious how much you think it adds since you’re recommending the zeta for p1.
Bb8’s second zeta adds way more to the team than r2’s. This is a judgement call on a fact, not an opinion. It either does or doesn’t, whether i’m capable of judging it correctly is a different matter.
If i remember and i’m able to be online during p1 i’ll test if you’re correct about preventing the negative effects of basic-ing with def down.

I have all zetas except scavenger rey now lol all good I'll test. Dont care about anything other than dmg before ship (re) farming in was getting a 2 zeta every 3 days from.ships and 2 on avg a week from so I had built a large number and blew it all on with raid teams
JtR, Ns, troopers , Phoenix, chex mix. Now gonna switch to Yoda teams after these darn ships are all 7*

"leef;c-1585581" wrote:
Assuming you are correct about the zeta preventing the negative effects when using a basic while you’re debuffed with defence down its still situational at best since it just doesnt happen often that you’re forced to use a basic with def down.
For all intents and purposes it doesnt improve survivability. Both nihilus (the main dmg dealer) en Sith assassin ignore protection. So the only times you can actually take dmg to your protection are when Sith assassin isnt stealthed and attacks and when Sith Marauder attacks. Those are the only attacks that could potentially cause you to lose Health where as you wouldnt have if you had more protection due to the R2zeta. Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns. Basically for normal play it simply doesnt improve survivability. If it does, you can improve your score way more by changing the way you play than by zeta-ing R2. So Yes, technically it can improve survivability, but during normal play it just doesnt and your characters just die with protection.
As for increased offence, again under the same assumption, it does improve your score. Since its situational at best i’d reckon the difference isnt even noticable. If it adds more than 5% on average i’d be suprised. Feel free to give an estimate yourself, i for one am curious how much you think it adds since you’re recommending the zeta for p1.
Bb8’s second zeta adds way more to the team than r2’s. This is a judgement call on a fact, not an opinion. It either does or doesn’t, whether i’m capable of judging it correctly is a different matter.
If i remember and i’m able to be online during p1 i’ll test if you’re correct about preventing the negative effects of basic-ing with def down.

Personally, I'd say that if you aren't killing the adds with R2's AoE, you are wasting actions taking out adds when you could be doing more damage to Nihilus himself. And since, as you say, that protection is worthless any other way, that means wasted damage. Also Sith Assassin only ignores protection with her special attack when stealthed. Her basic never ignores protection.

As for the % increase in damage from R2's cleanse, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks on Nihilus is a basic while you have defense down at which point he gains enough protection to negate a hit, so something like 25-33%% more damage is what you should be getting by having R2's combat analysis zetad.


R2's combat analysis is, without a doubt, AMAZING for this phase of the raid. It adds more to this team than any other zeta period, though Rey's leader ability is a close second.

"Woodroward;c-1586084" wrote:

Personally, I'd say that if you aren't killing the adds with R2's AoE, you are wasting actions taking out adds when you could be doing more damage to Nihilus himself. And since, as you say, that protection is worthless any other way, that means wasted damage. Also Sith Assassin only ignores protection with her special attack when stealthed. Her basic never ignores protection.

Her basic also ignores protection while she's stealthed.
"Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns." Doesn't really matter how you deal with the adds, this still applies. You can even use basics on them to prevent getting def down in the first place.

As for the % increase in damage from R2's cleanse, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks on Nihilus is a basic while you have defense down at which point he gains enough protection to negate a hit, so something like 25-33%% more damage is what you should be getting by having R2's combat analysis zetad.

R2's combat analysis is, without a doubt, AMAZING for this phase of the raid. It adds more to this team than any other zeta period, though Rey's leader ability is a close second.

This explains your point of view. JTR lead is by far the most important zeta on that team, it's not even close. Not an opinion, that's a fact. We're talking about atleast doubling your dmg due to that 1 zeta.
When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, all Exposed enemies lose 5% Turn Meter, which can't be Evaded or Resisted; When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, if they aren't debuffed, reduce their Cooldowns by 1
It also explains why you think r2's zeta is so usefull, you're forced to do way more basics than players that do have JTR's lead zeta'd due to the CD reduction. The TMR is also key to do alot of damage and it also enables you to "controll" the adds.
In case you were just trolling, you got me ;)

"leef;c-1586133" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1586084" wrote:

Personally, I'd say that if you aren't killing the adds with R2's AoE, you are wasting actions taking out adds when you could be doing more damage to Nihilus himself. And since, as you say, that protection is worthless any other way, that means wasted damage. Also Sith Assassin only ignores protection with her special attack when stealthed. Her basic never ignores protection.

Her basic also ignores protection while she's stealthed.
"Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns." Doesn't really matter how you deal with the adds, this still applies. You can even use basics on them to prevent getting def down in the first place.

As for the % increase in damage from R2's cleanse, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks on Nihilus is a basic while you have defense down at which point he gains enough protection to negate a hit, so something like 25-33%% more damage is what you should be getting by having R2's combat analysis zetad.

R2's combat analysis is, without a doubt, AMAZING for this phase of the raid. It adds more to this team than any other zeta period, though Rey's leader ability is a close second.

This explains your point of view. JTR lead is by far the most important zeta on that team, it's not even close. Not an opinion, that's a fact. We're talking about atleast doubling your dmg due to that 1 zeta.
When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, all Exposed enemies lose 5% Turn Meter, which can't be Evaded or Resisted; When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, if they aren't debuffed, reduce their Cooldowns by 1
It also explains why you think r2's zeta is so usefull, you're forced to do way more basics than players that do have JTR's lead zeta'd due to the CD reduction. The TMR is also key to do alot of damage and it also enables you to "controll" the adds.
In case you were just trolling, you got me ;)

Oh I have her lead zetad, but R2's combat analysis easily increases damage as much or more than that. The tm reduction is negligible especially against Nihilus with his stacking speed, sure tm removal is hard against Nihilus in general, but it's a mechanic that is doomed to fail because of the mechanics of the phase. I don't see it giving any more than 5-10% more offense.

While the JTR lead may be the best all around lead across the board on this raid, it is also heavily diminished by the mechanics of the raid. On P1, defense down routinely prevents cooldowns from being reduced. On p2, it's Sion's debuff, same problems for the first 2/3s of p4. Only in p3 is her lead regularly reducing cooldowns, but it doesn't really shine there due to the bonds of weakness mechanic. Because it rarely reduces cooldowns in p1 (pretty much 50% of the time if you have 2 specials, and 10% of the time if you have 1), it hardly increases offense there at all. Maybe 5-10%.

So it's not an opinion that the JTR lead zeta is worth less on this raid than it is anywhere else, whereas the R2 combat analysis zeta is worth more on this phase of this raid than it is anywhere else period.

The JTR lead zeta increases the damage of this team about 10-20%, while the R2 zeta increases it about 25-33%. It is better.