Self preservation zeta for sith raid

"Woodroward;c-1586155" wrote:

"leef;c-1586133" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1586084" wrote:

Personally, I'd say that if you aren't killing the adds with R2's AoE, you are wasting actions taking out adds when you could be doing more damage to Nihilus himself. And since, as you say, that protection is worthless any other way, that means wasted damage. Also Sith Assassin only ignores protection with her special attack when stealthed. Her basic never ignores protection.

Her basic also ignores protection while she's stealthed.
"Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns." Doesn't really matter how you deal with the adds, this still applies. You can even use basics on them to prevent getting def down in the first place.

As for the % increase in damage from R2's cleanse, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks on Nihilus is a basic while you have defense down at which point he gains enough protection to negate a hit, so something like 25-33%% more damage is what you should be getting by having R2's combat analysis zetad.

R2's combat analysis is, without a doubt, AMAZING for this phase of the raid. It adds more to this team than any other zeta period, though Rey's leader ability is a close second.

This explains your point of view. JTR lead is by far the most important zeta on that team, it's not even close. Not an opinion, that's a fact. We're talking about atleast doubling your dmg due to that 1 zeta.
When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, all Exposed enemies lose 5% Turn Meter, which can't be Evaded or Resisted; When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, if they aren't debuffed, reduce their Cooldowns by 1
It also explains why you think r2's zeta is so usefull, you're forced to do way more basics than players that do have JTR's lead zeta'd due to the CD reduction. The TMR is also key to do alot of damage and it also enables you to "controll" the adds.
In case you were just trolling, you got me ;)

Oh I have her lead zetad, but R2's combat analysis easily increases damage as much or more than that. The tm reduction is negligible especially against Nihilus with his stacking speed, and with all the assists the team has people rarely don't have defense down so their cooldowns don't get reduced frequently. R2's combat analysis is consistently increasing offense, whereas the JTR lead is only occasionally increasing offense in this raid.

I don't know what to tell you, you're just plain wrong. sorry. I suggest counting the times you're forced use a basic on nihilus with def down, it might not be as often as you think. Atleast you've left the improved survivability out of your comment this time, so i guess you've come to realize that i was right about that.

So it's not an opinion that the JTR lead zeta is worth less on this raid than it is anywhere else, whereas the R2 combat analysis zeta is worth more on this phase of this raid than it is anywhere else period.

I've never made any statements on how usefull the JTR lead zeta is in this raid compared to anywhere else, it's also completely irrelevant to this discussion. Same goes for the R2 zeta, but i've mentioned that it's an awesome zeta for other purposes.

I feel sorry for you that you have no idea how good R2's zeta actually is in this raid.

Do you really feel sorry for me, or is it just your way of saying you're superior to me? ;) It's kinda funny since you've been proven wrong multiple times during our discussion, points wich you conviniently left out in your further comments, yet you stubornly keep going. "Combat analysis" being a better zeta for p1 STR than "Inspirational presence", haha. Come on man.
Anway, even if you zeta'd "combat analysis" just for p1 STR, you've still got an awesome zeta for other purposes eventhough it doesn't help much in p1 STR. So no harm done.

"leef;c-1586206" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1586155" wrote:

"leef;c-1586133" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1586084" wrote:

Personally, I'd say that if you aren't killing the adds with R2's AoE, you are wasting actions taking out adds when you could be doing more damage to Nihilus himself. And since, as you say, that protection is worthless any other way, that means wasted damage. Also Sith Assassin only ignores protection with her special attack when stealthed. Her basic never ignores protection.

Her basic also ignores protection while she's stealthed.
"Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns." Doesn't really matter how you deal with the adds, this still applies. You can even use basics on them to prevent getting def down in the first place.

As for the % increase in damage from R2's cleanse, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks on Nihilus is a basic while you have defense down at which point he gains enough protection to negate a hit, so something like 25-33%% more damage is what you should be getting by having R2's combat analysis zetad.

R2's combat analysis is, without a doubt, AMAZING for this phase of the raid. It adds more to this team than any other zeta period, though Rey's leader ability is a close second.

This explains your point of view. JTR lead is by far the most important zeta on that team, it's not even close. Not an opinion, that's a fact. We're talking about atleast doubling your dmg due to that 1 zeta.
When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, all Exposed enemies lose 5% Turn Meter, which can't be Evaded or Resisted; When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, if they aren't debuffed, reduce their Cooldowns by 1
It also explains why you think r2's zeta is so usefull, you're forced to do way more basics than players that do have JTR's lead zeta'd due to the CD reduction. The TMR is also key to do alot of damage and it also enables you to "controll" the adds.
In case you were just trolling, you got me ;)

Oh I have her lead zetad, but R2's combat analysis easily increases damage as much or more than that. The tm reduction is negligible especially against Nihilus with his stacking speed, and with all the assists the team has people rarely don't have defense down so their cooldowns don't get reduced frequently. R2's combat analysis is consistently increasing offense, whereas the JTR lead is only occasionally increasing offense in this raid.

I don't know what to tell you, you're just plain wrong. sorry. I suggest counting the times you're forced use a basic on nihilus with def down, it might not be as often as you think. Atleast you've left the improved survivability out of your comment this time, so i guess you've come to realize that i was right about that.

So it's not an opinion that the JTR lead zeta is worth less on this raid than it is anywhere else, whereas the R2 combat analysis zeta is worth more on this phase of this raid than it is anywhere else period.

I've never made any statements on how usefull the JTR lead zeta is in this raid compared to anywhere else, it's also completely irrelevant to this discussion. Same goes for the R2 zeta, but i've mentioned that it's an awesome zeta for other purposes.

I feel sorry for you that you have no idea how good R2's zeta actually is in this raid.

Do you really feel sorry for me, or is it just your way of saying you're superior to me? ;) It's kinda funny since you've been proven wrong multiple times during our discussion, points wich you conviniently left out in your further comments, yet you stubornly keep going. "Combat analysis" being a better zeta for p1 STR than "Inspirational presence", haha. Come on man.
Anway, even if you zeta'd "combat analysis" just for p1 STR, you've still got an awesome zeta for other purposes eventhough it doesn't help much in p1 STR. So no harm done.

Proven wrong? About what? OK, I was wrong that Nihilus's basic doesn't ignore protection.

Other than that I have been correct about everything I've said.

You were wrong on your very first post in this topic telling me I was wrong in thinking that R2's zeta prevented the damage from Nihilus.

Then you were wrong in thinking that healing immunity prevented the bonus protection from when you attacked him too.

Then you were wrong in estimating that as 5% of the time. 1 out 20 attacks on your side is a basic with defense down? I don't believe that for a second. You're the one who needs to count how often it happens.

I'm not guessing. The % offense I came up with is based on me counting how many times I hit Nihilus with a basic attack with defense down. It happens roughly 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks. I left the survivability comment out because you got all elitist about strategy. "Oh if you do it any way other than me, you're doing it wrong".

I give up. There's no point convincing someone of the truth when they don't know what they're talking about from the start, and can't even admit the numerous things they've been wrong about.

Don't even try to tell me you can judge R2's zeta's effect more accurately than I when you had no idea what it was even doing before I explained it to you. Get off your high horse and realize that you are the student in this topic and I am the teacher.

Started off saying I was wrong, so just have to try to find some way to make sure I am. Let your ego go. Embrace the truth.

I have been a little technically incorrect in one thing.

R2's zeta doesn't actually increase damage, it just makes more of it count.
So it's not really like a 25-33% increase in damage so much as a lack of a 25-33% decrease in damage.

Why do JTR squads do 10X as much damage as most squads against Nihilus?

Sure she's got a killer lead, but that isn't why. The raid mechanics make mincemeat of her leader ability. Not only are your teams cooldowns not getting reduced because you're debuffed, but they're getting increased by Nihilus.

No, It's because of her healing immunity and R2's cleanse. Those are the money makers. Never having to go through bonus protection is why she's so good, and everyone else is so crappy.

So R2's combat analysis zeta is actually the most important/effective zeta on the whole team for this particular encounter since JTR's healing immunity is not tied to her leadership.

used a basic with def down 3 times total in this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1a5hqTKYUI&t=430s

used a basic with def down 5 times total in this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ebER5Sm1ok&t=134s

Probably too "elitist" for you, the selfproclaimed teacher (wich was a nice touch), but it does show how little R2's zeta comes into play, even if it does prevent the negative effects of using basics with def down. I'm still going to test that when i get the chance, i've no problem conceding if it turns out you were correct about that.
JTR's lead CD reduction is actually way better than you give it credit for, it pairs really well with bb8. The TMR is also way better than you give it credit for, especially combined with the CD reduction.
Saying R2's zeta is the most important/effective zeta on the whole team for p1 is just laughable. It's extra funny because you're so arrogant ;)

No idea where this thread took off too...but found the info for original question on reddit so feel free to virtually joust it out, most attention one of my posts has ever gotten lol.

"leef;c-1586706" wrote:
used a basic with def down 3 times total in this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1a5hqTKYUI&t=430s

used a basic with def down 5 times total in this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ebER5Sm1ok&t=134s

Probably too "elitist" for you, the selfproclaimed teacher (wich was a nice touch), but it does show how little R2's zeta comes into play, even if it does prevent the negative effects of using basics with def down. I'm still going to test that when i get the chance, i've no problem conceding if it turns out you were correct about that.
JTR's lead CD reduction is actually way better than you give it credit for, it pairs really well with bb8. The TMR is also way better than you give it credit for, especially combined with the CD reduction.
Saying R2's zeta is the most important/effective zeta on the whole team for p1 is just laughable. It's extra funny because you're so arrogant ;)

Yeah, I am the teacher. You didn't know anything about what R2's zeta was bringing to the fight. Test whenever you want. I find it arrogant as hell that you're arguing with me about any of this without having done any testing or research yourself.

Everything I have stated about R2's zeta is what I know to be true based on testing.

And you're right. Posting someone else's video is too elitist for me. Between BB's assist and the lack of cooldown reduction in this phase of the raid. I end up attacking Nihilus with a basic with defense down on them every 3 or 4 attacks. Like I said, I always attack Nihilus. I get better damage doing so than ever focusing on the adds. I call it elitist because it is thinking whatever strategy is currently being used is the "best" strategy. The fact that those people only attacked 3 or 5 times is irrelevant to me. It says to me they probably wasted far too many actions not attacking Nihilus. See with R2 in the comp there's no reason NOT to attack Nihlus, because he neuters the majority of that effect. Sure you still take more damage when you get attacked, and it guarantees the cooldown increase from Nihilus, but those aren't the parts that are trying to be avoided.

To put it another way: If they are only attacking Nihilus with a basic while having defense down 3-5 times an attempt, they're doing it wrong. (You see what I did there?). Of course I'm joking by taking this tact, but strategy is everything. How could you possibly know you are using the best strategy when you didn't even know what all of your team composition was bringing to the table?

Leaving the adds up instead of ever targeting them does many great things for your composition: Increases the amount of tm you gain because more targets can get exposes up; Lets you not waste attacks on them thereby increasing the damage you do to Nihilus; The fact that they hit your protection means doing so doesn't significantly impact your survivability and your healing immunity means it doesn't significantly impact your damage; Gives more targets for BB8 to counterattack generating more tm by landing exposes.

People's strategy's are based around avoiding hitting Nihilus with a basic with defense down. I think that's foolish. R2 counteracts the need to do so. So someone using a subpar strategy (in my opinion) that doesn't take advantage of everything a zeta brings to the table doesn't count as a good example of what that zeta DOES bring to the table.

If you want to post videos following that strategy, then count all the times they attacked an add instead of Nihilus too.

Come on man, you are the ignorant one here. Why can't you just admit it instead of trying to insist that I am?

So I'll start by admitting i only skimmed the wall of text. But you are arguing over def down and nihl protection regen. But what about the part in JTRs lead that says if you use a special and aren't suffering from any debuffs reduce your ability cds by 1? Wouldn't combat analysis help you trigger that cd reduction?

"Woodroward;c-1586974" wrote:


Come on man, you are the ignorant one here. Why can't you just admit it instead of trying to insist that I am?

Because while you may be right about the zeta preventing the negative effects of using basics on nihilus with def down, i think zeta-ing R2 is a horrible way to try to improve your p1 score, even if it works exactly like you say it does.
Also because i find it entertaining to see you try to come up with an explanation to why R2's zeta is better than JTR's zeta is. You're clearly wrong, but you just keep going, haha.
There's also the possibility that you've found a team composition and strategy in which R2 really shines that is actually better than what's currently considered to be the best strategy. I like to think that you think you have, but i highly doubt you did. It would still be hilarious if you actually did though and i would copy it without hesitation.
And lastly because i'm wondering if you would admit it if it turns out that you were using a subpar strategy and after watching that vid you've doubled your score using a strategy in which R2's zeta hardly comes into play.

Just chiming in, JTR lead zeta definitely better for P1 than either of R2's. Though both of R2's are great.

The bit I'm not understand is how its preventing him regaining protection. So a character with defence down crits and cleanses, but shouldn't the protection regain happen after the hit but before the cleanse?

Or is it crits from specials remove defence down so its safe to hit him with a basic?

Personally, my zeta order would be: JTR lead, R2 NC, BB8 RWTP, JTR Virtuous Protector, BB8 Self Presevation or R2 Combat Analysis, then the other one, then JTR Insight. That's if I was to zeta them now with P1 in mind, already had both R2's ages ago.

"DuneFlint;c-1587058" wrote:
So I'll start by admitting i only skimmed the wall of text. But you are arguing over def down and nihl protection regen. But what about the part in JTRs lead that says if you use a special and aren't suffering from any debuffs reduce your ability cds by 1? Wouldn't combat analysis help you trigger that cd reduction?

No, the order of operations is that the cd reduction happens when you press the button to perform the action, while the cleanse only happens after you hit.

"ChristophIV;c-1587104" wrote:
The bit I'm not understand is how its preventing him regaining protection. So a character with defence down crits and cleanses, but shouldn't the protection regain happen after the hit but before the cleanse?

Or is it crits from specials remove defence down so its safe to hit him with a basic?

Personally, my zeta order would be: JTR lead, R2 NC, BB8 RWTP, JTR Virtuous Protector, BB8 Self Presevation or R2 Combat Analysis, then the other one, then JTR Insight. That's if I was to zeta them now with P1 in mind, already had both R2's ages ago.

The protection regen raid effect from Nihilus and the cleanse from R2 both go on the stack because when the hit is made it passes the check for a debuff, but R2's cleanse resolves first for whatever reason so when the raid effect does the secondary check associated with the actual response, the condition that makes it work is no longer true and it fizzles.

At least that's how I'm guessing it works mainly based on my understanding of effect resolution from the game magic the gathering (which has a very similar rule structure to this game and is one of the reasons I started playing it actually).