Question about Rey (Jedi Training) Virtuous Protector Zeta

I ran 11 tests of JTR mind tricks against a JTR with the zeta. Obviously not conclusive from a % perspective but it seems pretty evident the behavior:
3 times - Offense Down only
2 times - Speed Down only
3 times - Offense + Speed Down
2 times - Ability Block, Speed Down, Offense Down
1 time - Daze, Ability Block, Speed Down
0 times all four were applied
0 times none were applied

It definitely appears to be evaluating each one. The number of times not applied appears much higher than normal resistance against other toons or JTR with no zeta.

"Grizzly;c-1412566" wrote:
I ran 11 tests of JTR mind tricks against a JTR with the zeta. Obviously not conclusive from a % perspective but it seems pretty evident the behavior:
3 times - Offense Down only
2 times - Speed Down only
3 times - Offense + Speed Down
2 times - Ability Block, Speed Down, Offense Down
1 time - Daze, Ability Block, Speed Down
0 times all four were applied
0 times none were applied

It definitely appears to be evaluating each one. The number of times not applied appears much higher than normal resistance against other toons or JTR with no zeta.

I think we would need to know if you saw resisted and how many times, video of it would be even better. The debuffs can be resisted the tmr cannot.

Application order is
Daze
AB
Offense Down
Speed Down

"scuba;c-1412571" wrote:

"Grizzly;c-1412566" wrote:
I ran 11 tests of JTR mind tricks against a JTR with the zeta. Obviously not conclusive from a % perspective but it seems pretty evident the behavior:
3 times - Offense Down only
2 times - Speed Down only
3 times - Offense + Speed Down
2 times - Ability Block, Speed Down, Offense Down
1 time - Daze, Ability Block, Speed Down
0 times all four were applied
0 times none were applied

It definitely appears to be evaluating each one. The number of times not applied appears much higher than normal resistance against other toons or JTR with no zeta.

I think we would need to know if you saw resisted and how many times, video of it would be even better. The debuffs can be resisted the tmr cannot.

Application order is
Daze
AB
Offense Down
Speed Down

Good point. However will the TMR be blocked by the zeta? Is that classified a debuff?

"Grizzly;c-1412583" wrote:

"scuba;c-1412571" wrote:

"Grizzly;c-1412566" wrote:
I ran 11 tests of JTR mind tricks against a JTR with the zeta. Obviously not conclusive from a % perspective but it seems pretty evident the behavior:
3 times - Offense Down only
2 times - Speed Down only
3 times - Offense + Speed Down
2 times - Ability Block, Speed Down, Offense Down
1 time - Daze, Ability Block, Speed Down
0 times all four were applied
0 times none were applied

It definitely appears to be evaluating each one. The number of times not applied appears much higher than normal resistance against other toons or JTR with no zeta.

I think we would need to know if you saw resisted and how many times, video of it would be even better. The debuffs can be resisted the tmr cannot.

Application order is
Daze
AB
Offense Down
Speed Down

Good point. However will the TMR be blocked by the zeta? Is that classified a debuff?

Nope

"GreenGoblin96;c-1412594" wrote:

"Grizzly;c-1412583" wrote:

"scuba;c-1412571" wrote:

"Grizzly;c-1412566" wrote:
I ran 11 tests of JTR mind tricks against a JTR with the zeta. Obviously not conclusive from a % perspective but it seems pretty evident the behavior:
3 times - Offense Down only
2 times - Speed Down only
3 times - Offense + Speed Down
2 times - Ability Block, Speed Down, Offense Down
1 time - Daze, Ability Block, Speed Down
0 times all four were applied
0 times none were applied

It definitely appears to be evaluating each one. The number of times not applied appears much higher than normal resistance against other toons or JTR with no zeta.

I think we would need to know if you saw resisted and how many times, video of it would be even better. The debuffs can be resisted the tmr cannot.

Application order is
Daze
AB
Offense Down
Speed Down

Good point. However will the TMR be blocked by the zeta? Is that classified a debuff?

Nope

So that doesn't really prove anything since TMR will always apply.

"Grizzly;c-1412583" wrote:
Good point. However will the TMR be blocked by the zeta? Is that classified a debuff?

How could a debuff cleanse block tmr? doesnt really make any sense

"PiffGuru;c-1412604" wrote:

"Grizzly;c-1412583" wrote:
Good point. However will the TMR be blocked by the zeta? Is that classified a debuff?

How could a debuff cleanse block tmr? doesnt really make any sense

I never said it did. The preface of Scuba's point was that if TMR didn't happen it would be because of the Zeta and if did happen but the buff didn't it was because it was resisted. Since I don't believe the Zeta would apply to the TMR I don't believe that point is necessarily valid. TMR would always happen...

I would say that it is a question as to timing. If all the debuffs are applied at the same time, there would be one check to see if the are cleansed (not resisted). If they follow a progression of application (one after the other) it should check them each individually which would allow for more opportunities to cleanse pre-existing debuffs as well as those actively being applied.

In addition, note that this is all happening AFTER potency/tenacity check are done, so in the test cases indicated above, it is not specifically the zeta cleanse that you are seeing there. It could be a straight tenacity check succeeding. What might be a better experiment is to attempt to debuff Rey when she has an existing debuff already on her and see whether THAT one gets removed.

Yes there are limitations to the experiment. However, testing against an JTR without the zeta would probably give you enough evidence for comparison. After all, we are just looking to establish that for a multiple debuff action the chance of the cleanse is higher than 40% because it is checked for each debuff. Unless you believe that resistance is very high I don't think you would see the results above otherwise.

What we are looking to do is to determine if, not establish that, there are multiple checks (sorry to go all grammar hammer on you but it is an important distinction). Here is why I find your data not acceptable to answer this questions:

IF there are multiple checks happening the variables that could be observed are much greater that what you showed. Lets say that each debuff gets applied separatly (in an order of progression). Debuff #1 could get resisted by tenacity check causing no debuff application, causing no % chance of cleanse OR Debuff #1 could pass through tenacity check and still get applied due to cleanse chance failure. Then Debuff #2 and #3 and #4 go through the same process. If debuff 1, 2 and 3 all get applied and cleanse fails but then works on debuff 4 there would be nothing showing on the target at the end. Or the cleanse could happen on check 2 or 3 but fail on 4 so you would see only those debuffs that were ordered last.

Her zeta does not help her resist, It removes all existing debuffs on her. Without some dev feedback on what mechanics are actually at work behind the scenes here, it would be nearly impossible to tell whether any empirical data shows anything other than what you are predisposed to believe.

To paraphrase David Eddings - No man has ever used logic to prove something they didn't already believe.