Life is not without its ups and downs. Is TS4 really a game, particularly a life simulation game?Okay, I know there's so much more to the game than just the emotion system. But, let's just focus on it, also because it's one of the game's highlighting features and core mechanics... which affects the entire gameplay.No matter how much they add object-specific, lot-specific, or any feature-specific "challenging" gameplay elements, the game feels too easy. At this point, they should just change the official description from "life simulation sandbox game" or whatever to just purely "sandbox game." Okay, let's say that the upcoming "Lot Challenges" can solve this. But have you seen the tons of new positive emotional buffs your Sims can get from the new objects (animals, sheds, farming activities, etc.) compared to the negative ones? This brings me to my main point: the positive buffs / moodlets in this game are too OP as if we don't ever naturally need the "negative" ones for interesting and diverse gameplay. This is why the Emotion System is still (and will forever be) broken, thus breaking the fundamental aspect of a game, the "challenge and reward," until an overhaul is done. There are generally far too many positive emotional buffs in the game compared to negative ones. The strength and duration of the buffs are too inconsistent that, for example, we get moodlets from mundane tasks (commonly positive) that last for a long 8 hours and important ones (often negative) that only last for a short 4 hours instead of days. There are too many objects and gameplay elements that grant (powerful) positive emotions by just doing simple tasks. We have to make so much effort to get our Sims in a "bad" mood. There are many naturally occurring positive buffs and rarely negative ones (that are also powerful enough) to spice up the baseline emotion gameplay. For example, the Gloomy trait sad buff only adds a +1 Sad buff to your Sim that is supposedly inherently depressive and sad their whole life! EDIT (thanks to @Handel for this): The Happy buffs boosts all the positive emotions, and is an extremely easy one to get and stack. Meanwhile, none of the negative emotions boost one another! This is why we have the glorious Meaningful Stories mod. But how about the console and vanilla players tho? sad noises Relating to the previous point, Meaningful Stories fixes many aspects of this system good, and the devs should consider using it as an inspiration for their own vanilla implementation. However, this integral system of the game should never rely on mods in the first place.Now, I don't want any trouble with those who play the game as a sandbox or storytelling game and those who play it as a feel-good and a relaxing game who are most probably fine with the bombardment of the positive emotions and absence of the real gameplay effects of the negative ones. I don't know; perhaps a tickbox in the Settings that says "Enable Emotion System?" Or, maybe a dropdown option in the Settings labeled "Emotion System" with the options: "No Emotion System," which is suitable for sandbox/storytelling gameplay; "Basic Emotion System," which is like what we have now but improved; "Deep/Enhanced Emotion System" which works on these problems that I'm discussing. Regardless, this system desperately needs an overhaul.What do y'all think?

I would like to return to the Mood meter system of earlier Sims games. I don’t like the emotion system. For me, it gets in the way of the stories I want to tell, as I have to manage Sims.I get a lot of grumpy elder Sims stomping through my streets who walk and look angry. (I think it’s because I make happy young adults so it’s some sort of counterbalance?).It just means making friends is more difficult for my Sims, they can only mostly befriend other Sims I make.I dislike the ‘too many instant meals’ uncomfortable emotion as it pressures me into cooking which there isn’t time for. I would love to remove that gourmet fruitcake as it spawns in Sims inventories when I change houses and if I forget to check, they eat a plate and get that ‘who eats this stuff anymore?’ Then they’re uncomfortable which means certain things are unavailable until the buffer goes. ???. (Although one of my Sims got a positive buff from eating the fruitcake so that confused me. You like it?! ?).I don’t want buffs that last for days either positive or negative. 4 hours is the most for me.

Thank you for your opinions, @ncisGibbs02. Yes, the mood meter system feels better than what we have now. However, I don't think the devs are capable of making such a drastic change to the game at the moment (or ever). And if they did, it'll probably break the game even more because it isn't what's intended. This is why I've suggested a solution that I think would be cool and also feasible development-wise.

I don't play too many mods, but the emotion system was so easy to gain and mess with that I did actually opt in to find one and picked up Meaningful Stories by roburky. I can't honestly recommend it enough as it enough. Carl has a video that goes over it here.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-SmZqyyFNsI don't know how high of a priority this is for the Maxis devs, as they always need to focus on the next expansion and new things to expand the gameplay, whether or not they actually do expand the gameplay is another question but ya know. I'm always willing to give them a benefit of a doubt because game development is hard and it's quite clear that they pour a lot of love an attenion despite all the anger that's hurled their way.But yeah, for now, I'd recommended picking up the mod and hopefully the developers can learn from it for later on or for whatever the Sims 5 will be.

Thanks for your input, @Handel . I made an edit to the original post because it's a good point, and I remembered the mod.

"thatpinkcoconut;d-991682" wrote:We have to make so much effort to get our Sims in a "bad" mood.Exactly, that is the one real challenge in TS4 (aside from trying to work around bugs all the time), and it makes no sense. Sometimes I wonder why negative emotions are in the game in the first place when the game itself is constantly bending over backwards to prevent you from experiencing them.Case in point: I had a situation where a sim's husband autonomously flirted with the sim's sister right in front of her. The scorned wife got angry, so very angry in fact, that I feared she was going to have a heart attack, so I sent her to a mirror in another room to calm down. Another room that happened to have beautiful decorations, a calming fire, and more things that gave happy moodlets and she went from very angry to very happy before she even reached the mirror. After she had just been cheated on! The angry moodlet was still there, though, and constantly fighting for dominance with the overabundance of happy moodlets. It was ridiculous.But negative emotions aren't just needed for drama, but sometimes for regular gameplay, too. Another sim of mine was working from home in the Social Media career, and one of the tasks of the day was to record an angry rant. Since she had neither the Hot-headed trait nor a partner that could cheat on her, the only thing I could think of to make her angry was to look at an angry painting, so I had her travel to a certain museum to do just that. The moodlet was extremely weak, though, and quickly overpowered by positive influences left and right. I ended up failing the task because I couldn't get her angry enough in time to record the rant.I used to have the Meaningful Stories mod installed, but found it to be too extreme in the opposite way, with unwanted emotions being very hard to get rid of. Since I was mostly playing with archaeologists at the time, who sometimes needed to get in a certain mood to overcome certain temple traps, I uninstalled the mod because it was making that impossible. But I think we shouldn't have to rely on mods for such things in the first place.

Forever Imbalanced Emotion System: The Big Problem

39 Replies

moderateosprey
Seasoned Ace
5 years ago
"TomasGrizzly;c-17932373" wrote:
Not that different from TS3. Worst debuff I had there, from death, was -75. I managed to get over +1000 a couple of times. It's the same issue as in TS3 just in a different coat.
Worse, they keep adding way too powerful buffs left, right, and center. Many of the existing +2 or stronger buffs should've been +1 and it would be enough. The abundance of positive buffs has one negative impact, though: it's way too easy to die of laughter, because the amount of buffs needed to get a sim to hysterical is way too easy to achieve.

Along with elders being too flirty - that is pretty risky as well :anguished:
moderateosprey
Seasoned Ace
5 years ago
"Felicity;c-17932386" wrote:
"TomasGrizzly;c-17932373" wrote:
Not that different from TS3. Worst debuff I had there, from death, was -75. I managed to get over +1000 a couple of times. It's the same issue as in TS3 just in a different coat.
Worse, they keep adding way too powerful buffs left, right, and center. Many of the existing +2 or stronger buffs should've been +1 and it would be enough. The abundance of positive buffs has one negative impact, though: it's way too easy to die of laughter, because the amount of buffs needed to get a sim to hysterical is way too easy to achieve.

It's different. The mood meter in Sims 3 affects how quickly you get points and makes it less likely to be rejected by a romance partner, but Sims will still respond to moodlets. So if your sim was topped out ecstatic, but their partner cheated on them, they'd still react appropriately to the betrayal even if their mood didn't tank out due to other buffs. If they were around someone they hated, they'd still want to fight them or see their ghost.

The problem with the Sims 4 is the emotions override everything including events and personality. If the sim gets cheated on, they will get the emotional moodlet (sad or angry), but with enough positive emotions (which seem to pile on no matter what you do), you won't even see the moodlet, much less see an appropriate reaction.

Just an apologists thought on this. I have had very little experience with 3, but what can often happen in 4 is that even though moodlets like sad, angry etc, are buried under positive ones when the sim is engaging in conversation with other sims in a nicely decorated room etc, negative moodlets can rapidly resurface when that sim find themselves alone, perhaps by going outside, to the bathroom etc. This doesn't stretch the bounds of believability for me.

The main problem is that there is no driving negative emotion to counteract the happy emotion constantly buffing one of the 'standalone' moodlets. For example if a sim is energised and there was a counterbalancing negative moodlet then this should exacerbate the energised moodlet in a negative way in the same way that happy increases the positive force of the 'standalone' moodlets such as energised.
Jyotai
Seasoned Ace
5 years ago
"ModerateOsprey;c-17931693" wrote:
"Jyotai;c-17930291" wrote:
"ModerateOsprey;c-17928977" wrote:

This is pretty much what I do, my game is heavily modded, but there are limitations. I still feel like I am fighting sudden mood swings, obsessive object attraction and the new (to me) likes/dislikes mechanic which again just provides a moodlet rather than emphasizing or preventing behavior. None of these mechanics appear to be joined up in any way. So mods just allow me to play a more sophisticated version of whack-a-mole while herding cats.

There is a thread asking if people are upset over EP features being added to the base game, like the Calendar.

This highlights why I feel adding those features to base is a good thing.

The reason these mechanics don't feel joined in any way is often exactly that they aren't joined. Something comes from this or that EP and they could have either made each EP require all the older ones, or added things to the base game.

You've got people like that Carl guy demanding EPs be about gameplay instead of content - so they've been hesitant to put that gameplay into the base game, and instead keep it in the EPs... and we all suffer as a result.

.

I am not sure if I would like a pack to be dependent on another pack, not only for myself but by keeping them non dependent, it reduces the potential cost to a player. So yes, there will have to be compromises. If I was a new player and was happy with the base game and vampires, but vampires relies on something else, then I would be very disappointing.

Yeah I would definitely NOT want the picked solution to be EPs requiring each other.

I am good with a hybrid solution where game packs put out in 202x require the EP that came out that same year before them.

Like this:

EP A, Packs A, Kits A, then EP B, repeat.
- With maybe the $9 packs requiring the EP and being about expanding it out, but the $20 ones being standalone 'wacky themes' as they have been.

My preference though is that most 'gameplay' be put into base game and packs be more weighted to more CAS/Build. With the EPs having some new gameplay / occults etc that are coded such that they show up in all the other EPs you own (as someone mentioned about Sims 2).
Hoverael
5 years ago
I find Meaningful Stories essential, but it does have its issues. sometimes you have a +1 emotion moodlet stopping a combined +7 emotional moodlets from overriding in some instances and sometimes the lingering emotional moodlet does not go away as it should and keeps another moodlet from having the desired effect.

Also it is too easy to get very happy, especially in an apartment and with presents piles on the lot, that way you only need to go to the board, read the note, head inside and then open a present to get to very happy. i then exploit that when i have enough simoleons to sit on skill classes all day. for the especially difficult skills like rock climbing, it makes them very easy to get where it would take a long time otherwise using the climbing wall from the fitness pack or the climbing walls from snowy escapes.

There is a lot of room for improvement from Meaningful Stories, but at least there are times where negative moodlets can increase and combine with others. So it is still miles better than the base game emotion system.
halloweenchild13
Seasoned Ace
5 years ago
"thatpinkcoconut;c-17928609" wrote:
"Babykittyjade;c-17928591" wrote:
This game in general is aimed to be a happy place.

As much as I hate to get backlash for this, I think I should say that this is one of the biggest problems of the franchise now.The game is leaning too much on the positive side of things that it forgets that it. is. a. life. simulation. game. Negative things are part of life. Life is full of drama. And it's up to us, the players, who are now in control of everything, to make things right.

Ultimately, what enrages me is that The Sims 4 is 7 years old, but it hasn't decided yet whether it is a life simulation game (that feels like a game with real challenges) or a sandbox/storytelling game.

Yeah it's been slowly slipping towards "happy sunshine, rainbows and lollipops" ever since the devs became more active on Twitter. Which meant they were able to get "feedback" directly from players, many of whom just complained about every little inconvenience and constantly badgered them into quietly removing features until there was nothing left but happiness and no sadness 24/7. I mean, just look at what they did to the autonomous vampire gameplay. Due to Twitter complaints.
halloweenchild13
Seasoned Ace
5 years ago
"Thrior;c-17930698" wrote:
@Sharonia Fully agreed with your comment. Emotions are a great idea on paper but their implementation is lackluster (switch around too rapidly, lack meaning) and they overpower everything to a point that it doesn't allow sims' individual personality to shine through. I too am using Meaningful Stories and can't imagine ever removing it. It's just so much better than the messy vanilla system.

IMO too much of the game relies on random moodlets (which only boost their emotions) with nothing interesting being done with them. Take sentiments for example. Now wouldn't it be great if having a certain sentiment then allowed unique interactions/properties as long as that sentiment is in effect? E.g. when Axel put out a fire Abigail decided to get too friendly with, she gained an "Awed by a Lifesaving Hero" sentiment. I immediately thought this meant she could go express her gratitude or they could discuss the situation (he gained a "Close after a Close Call" sentiment) but, nope, just a happy moodlet. Boring and a wasted opportunity.

Yeah, I was hoping for a "reminisce" or a "talk through trama" type interactions with some of the sentiments, but nope, just random moodlets that make them happy, sad, angry or playful at the most inconvenient times. Not to mention sentiments for toddlers are a little wonky, like my toddler sim decides to reject an interaction from their parent/caretaker and suddenly the toddler is hurt that the parent/caretaker forced them to be potty trained, like what?? My toddler suddenly has a festering grudge with their family members because they decided to autonomously fail/reject an interaction.
NateWhiplash
Seasoned Ace
5 years ago
I couldn't agree more--I find the 'always positive' mood trait to be incredibly annoying, like all Sims are happy Sims at heart
thefirsttemplar
Seasoned Ace
5 years ago
It's always been a bit of a problem that all sims are too nice by default, with Sims 3 you at least had traits altering the default behaviour but in Sims 4 you barely have that and also less traits. With many important ones of Sims 3 missing.

The friendly trait is meaningless since ALL sims are friendly. Liking activities, colours or music also means nothing because they already do. I only ever use the dislikes, at most I give them a like if I feel they'd REALLY like it a lot.

Sims 3 needed a trait for sims to dislike supernaturals since regular sims wanted to meet vampires and stuff like that, but the downside being that the dislike supernatural traits also causes that sim to whine endlessly about it and have many different ways to whine about it that flood their interactions options.

I want to be able to make sims that can be negative, grouchy, stubborn, dislike using technology outside of basic functions like calling, might dislike all types of music save for one, etc. Let my sims be super picky please.

And seriously, get rid of the phone implants. Sims should be able to not have a phone, or maybe one only used for calling. Don't force every sim to be phone obsessed, it just makes me hate them more since I hate people like that in real life.
TomasGrizly
5 years ago
"Felicity;c-17932386" wrote:
The problem with the Sims 4 is the emotions override everything including events and personality. If the sim gets cheated on, they will get the emotional moodlet (sad or angry), but with enough positive emotions (which seem to pile on no matter what you do), you won't even see the moodlet, much less see an appropriate reaction.

True. But to me, that doesn't make the TS4 situation new, just a worse form of a problem that was already present before.

"ModerateOsprey;c-17932397" wrote:
Just an apologists thought on this. I have had very little experience with 3, but what can often happen in 4 is that even though moodlets like sad, angry etc, are buried under positive ones when the sim is engaging in conversation with other sims in a nicely decorated room etc, negative moodlets can rapidly resurface when that sim find themselves alone, perhaps by going outside, to the bathroom etc. This doesn't stretch the bounds of believability for me.

The main problem is that there is no driving negative emotion to counteract the happy emotion constantly buffing one of the 'standalone' moodlets. For example if a sim is energised and there was a counterbalancing negative moodlet then this should exacerbate the energised moodlet in a negative way in the same way that happy increases the positive force of the 'standalone' moodlets such as energised.

Yeah, another part of the problem is that each mood is separate and is, effectively a +X to something that completely overrides the others. it would help if all negatives were - while positives would be +. So if you had 6 happy, 2 angry, and 2 sad, it would count as +2 happy instead of +6. That's definitely something they should think about if they were to keep such (or similar) system for TS5.

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Forever Imbalanced Emotion System: The Big Problem

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